Ghamdi says Hazrat Isa has died a natural death; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KX-jxZaI7qY)
Question is if Hazrat Isa has died then how are prophecies regarding second coming of Hazrat Isa (as) be fulfilled?
Question is if a person speaks without knowledge of the basic ayahs of the Quran, do we glorify him or correct his deviant ways?
I can think of one basic ayah from the Quran that you can read everyday to counter people such as Ghamdi.
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[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.
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157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
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And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not *:
But Allah raised him 'Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.
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*
Question is if a person speaks without knowledge of the basic ayahs of the Quran, do we glorify him or correct his deviant ways?
I can think of one basic ayah from the Quran that you can read everyday to counter people such as Ghamdi.
Cresent bro!
Aren't we getting too emotionally charged in this thread?
As a neutral observer, it is hard to find an issue with Ghamdi based on the Aya that you have quoted. He says the same thing as you say. That Hazrat Isa ah was not crucified, and Allah swa took him.
Ghamdi too refers to BOTH Quran and Hadees. He gives an additional section from Surah Maida, that you are ignoring in this debate.
At least we should be honest while listening to a professor. We may disagree but we should not start by saying "deviant". These types of terms should be reserved for corrupt politicians and sucidal tribals.
Just a thought, and no intention to start a flame war.
Thank you.
re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
Javed Ghamdi is promoting all-together new concepts. His thoeries have been rejected by all the Ulma-e-karam of all the sects of Islam. His beliefs aout Jesus A.S ] are similar to Ahmadi's beliefs.
re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
^ yep and replace them with his own more distorted mis-interpretations....
re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
Who cares what he says about Isa(AS) since he's got no authority in Islam. But this is clear that his creed is different to the creed of mainstream muslims.
I hope we all realize this.
re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
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These types of terms should be reserved for corrupt politicians and sucidal tribals.
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and those who support corrupt politicians ?
Cresent bro!
Aren't we getting too emotionally charged in this thread?
As a neutral observer, it is hard to find an issue with Ghamdi based on the Aya that you have quoted. He says the same thing as you say. That Hazrat Isa ah was not crucified, and Allah swa took him.
Ghamdi too refers to BOTH Quran and Hadees. He gives an additional section from Surah Maida, that you are ignoring in this debate.
At least we should be honest while listening to a professor. We may disagree but we should not start by saying "deviant". These types of terms should be reserved for corrupt politicians and sucidal tribals.
Just a thought, and no intention to start a flame war.
Thank you.
Peace burqaposhx
You are not a neutral observer. You have proven many times what your stance is. That is everything against the orthodoxy of Islam. Now we have that out of the way lets deal with your post.
First of all the word used throughout the Qur'an to mean death is 'mawt' now the contemporary Arabic meaning of the word rafa'a has a mute meaning 'death' ... but the active meaning is to 'raise up' ... its like me asking someone
"Where is Yusuf?" and the reply comes "He has left this world" now this means 'death' in normal speach but it can also take the literal meaning which is to be 'lifted out of the world' ...
Now why should one meaning take precedence over another it is clear from the context ...
"... surely they killed him not rather we lifted him up" or "...surely they killed him not rather we caused him to die"
As you can see the latter of the two is a pointless statement. It is like people believe God is saying that entities other than God can cause people to die. None can cause death except God ... then if you look at the verse with respect to the hadith and other scriptures you will see that he was not killed at all.
In fact people try to argue that Isa(AS) survived the cross, but I hold that he was not even touched by the cross ...
There is much to this story for full substantiation far more than Ghamidi has given here. In this light I say he is mistaken and your position as opposition to Islamic orthodoxy is a flimsy one to be on.
re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
Ghamidi is another of those Bidaati munafiq "scholars"
[quote=“test01, post:15, topic:194666”]
Ghamdi says Hazrat Isa has died a natural death; YouTube
First watch the video, and then give a verdict. If you can’t understand urdu correctly then move on. And test01 next time don’t took things out of context !
re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
Based on what I saw and heard on video of Mr. Ghamidi, few thoughts came to my mind which I would like to share:
He mentioned the Quranic Iyet in which All (SAW) will ask Issa (AS) if he asked people to worship him and his mother? and reply will be no.
OK
1- Were there any people at the time of Issa (AS) worshipping him or it happened after he was taken by Allah?
If not ( and I think muslims believe this) then it means he has to come back to teach people not to worship him so this Iyet will be fulffiled.
2- Mr. Ghamidi himself added or percieved as if the plan is already made by Allah (SAW) for Issa (AS) till the time of judgement day and he skipped the time between his last day on earth till the day of judgement where there still can be a possibility for him to come back.
The Iyet which he quoted does not mean there is a set plan of this sort or not.
3- I am not sure what he means by questiong hadeeths based on the time frame they were compiled. What is so special on this belief of Issa (AS) second coming not to believe and believe so many other hadeeths???
4- He used bible being his source of some information. Why would he say that?
re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
requesting the mods to put "AS" after Isa AS's name on title . Thanks.
"... surely they killed him not rather we lifted him up" or "...surely they killed him not rather we caused him to die"
As you can see the latter of the two is a pointless statement.
Actually no, the later statement makes sense as they could not kill him and ISA(AS)'s death was a natural one...where and when it does not mention except ISA(AS) was saved from those who tried to kill him.
The former statement of literally raising him to some place out of this world… is frankly if you did not already believe in it..quite preposterous. This is so out of the ordinary that you will never accept it for another person. This is really taking a myth that has been passed on from generations to you (ie following ancestor’s deen) then trying to extract the meaning from Quran to suit it. Put it another way, let’s say a person who does not know of this myth and needs to find out what happened…why would he believe this? as this NEVER happens in real life as per our experience. If you need to convince someone to this extremely unusual event you must bring equally strong and clear evidence and not rely on a vague interpretation of a verse which otherwise has a clearly valid, rational and practical meaning ie ISA(AS) died a natural death.
I also have additional questions;
Why 'raising to Allah' means taking someone outside this world when Allah is everywhere unless it means death and we use the phrase ‘so and so person has gone to god’ or ‘god has taken him’ to signify dying so nothing wrong with taking this obvious meaning.
What does raising mean for you? Did ISA(AS) flew somewhat like a super man through the space without the protection of a space suit with oxygen and temperature control and without the use of a space ship? I have a feeling if people of the time knew about these things; they would have added a space craft into the myth just to make it sound more plausible then it is now.
Where was ISA(as) “raised” to? Is it to a planet in this universe?
My point is there are too many loose ends to this story and it has a typical style of a myth. Why isn't a simple, rational, practical meaning of ISA(As) dying not acceptable to you over this myth like scenario?
First watch the video, and then give a verdict. If you can't understand urdu correctly then move on. And test01 next time don't took things out of context !
What context is that? You have not explained and I am not aalamul ghaib.
What context is that? You have not explained and I am not aalamul ghaib.
What's wrong in the video? Please point me out? did you just listen his one line and close the video? Its looks like that !..
Actually no, the later statement makes sense as they could not kill him and ISA(AS)'s death was a natural one...where and when it does not mention except ISA(AS) was saved from those who tried to kill him.
The former statement of literally raising him to some place out of this world… is frankly if you did not already believe in it..quite preposterous. This is so out of the ordinary that you will never accept it for another person. This is really taking a myth that has been passed on from generations to you (ie following ancestor’s deen) then trying to extract the meaning from Quran to suit it. Put it another way, let’s say a person who does not know of this myth and needs to find out what happened…why would he believe this? as this NEVER happens in real life as per our experience. If you need to convince someone to this extremely unusual event you must bring equally strong and clear evidence and not rely on a vague interpretation of a verse which otherwise has a clearly valid, rational and practical meaning ie ISA(AS) died a natural death.
I also have additional questions;
Why 'raising to Allah' means taking someone outside this world when Allah is everywhere unless it means death and we use the phrase ‘so and so person has gone to god’ or ‘god has taken him’ to signify dying so nothing wrong with taking this obvious meaning.
What does raising mean for you? Did ISA(AS) flew somewhat like a super man through the space without the protection of a space suit with oxygen and temperature control and without the use of a space ship? I have a feeling if people of the time knew about these things; they would have added a space craft into the myth just to make it sound more plausible then it is now.
Where was ISA(as) “raised” to? Is it to a planet in this universe?
My point is there are too many loose ends to this story and it has a typical style of a myth. Why isn't a simple, rational, practical meaning of ISA(As) dying not acceptable to you over this myth like scenario?
Peace test01
There are many hadith to this effect and there are books part of the apocrypha which also say this. I have reproduced this information here before.
To add if we only accept those things that we find 'normal' then Islam is at risk of becoming grossly misinterpreted. For example ... the life of Isa (AS) is covered in mystery and unusual events. From the time of his virgin birth. Now some people question this as being some sort of mistake or a pious cover up. But I tell just as it is possible to have a virgin birth it is equally as possible to have the same man taken alive in to heaven.
The alternative interpretation does make sense but it is a lame interpretation. Nothing much is actually being said unless it means what the classic interpretation has it mean.
I also believe Muhammad (SAW) has been taken up alive and return in the time of Al-Mi'raj but some would like to reduce that to a vision.
1) Allah (SWT) is not everywhere rather His Knowledge knows no bounds
2) As I said why would the Qur'an switch terminology of death i.e. did not say mawt, just for this particular purpose if it was not intended to meant literally?
3) Where was Isa (AS) raised to ... He is in a domain with angels tending to him. I would only guess that it is not part of the Creation that we can see. In which case NO he is most likely not on another planet. But Allah(SWT) Knows and truly this is of no consequence until he returns.
What does raising mean for you? Did ISA(AS) flew somewhat like a super man through the space without the protection of a space suit with oxygen and temperature control and without the use of a space ship? I have a feeling if people of the time knew about these things; they would have added a space craft into the myth just to make it sound more plausible then it is now.
Where was ISA(as) “raised” to? *Is it to a planet in this universe? *
My point is there are too many loose ends to this story and it has a typical style of a myth. Why isn't a simple, rational, practical meaning of ISA(As) dying not acceptable to you over this myth like scenario?
oh brother, when you put up these silly things, it only makes you look weaker. if you only understood little of what ALLAH can do, you wouldn't be posting up such childish remarks. please wake up from your comic book world.
Actually no, the later statement makes sense as they could not kill him and ISA(AS)'s death was a natural one...where and when it does not mention except ISA(AS) was saved from those who tried to kill him.
The former statement of literally raising him to some place out of this world… is frankly if you did not already believe in it..quite preposterous. This is so out of the ordinary that you will never accept it for another person. This is really taking a myth that has been passed on from generations to you (ie following ancestor’s deen) then trying to extract the meaning from Quran to suit it. Put it another way, let’s say a person who does not know of this myth and needs to find out what happened…why would he believe this? as this NEVER happens in real life as per our experience. If you need to convince someone to this extremely unusual event you must bring equally strong and clear evidence and not rely on a vague interpretation of a verse which otherwise has a clearly valid, rational and practical meaning ie ISA(AS) died a natural death.
I also have additional questions;
Why 'raising to Allah' means taking someone outside this world when Allah is everywhere unless it means death and we use the phrase ‘so and so person has gone to god’ or ‘god has taken him’ to signify dying so nothing wrong with taking this obvious meaning.
What does raising mean for you? Did ISA(AS) flew somewhat like a super man through the space without the protection of a space suit with oxygen and temperature control and without the use of a space ship? I have a feeling if people of the time knew about these things; they would have added a space craft into the myth just to make it sound more plausible then it is now.
Where was ISA(as) “raised” to? Is it to a planet in this universe?
My point is there are too many loose ends to this story and it has a typical style of a myth. Why isn't a simple, rational, practical meaning of ISA(As) dying not acceptable to you over this myth like scenario?
Thats the problem with "religious logic" , that it does nto take you anywhere, the "logic" in religious doctrine only suits its proponent.
Is there any real evidence or lack thereof of existence of God or if He does save people?
Re: Ghamdi on Hazrat Isa (AS)
People like Psyah make Religion look irrational and dumb!
It’s not a Problem of the Religion. Don’t make Religion responsible for their misinterpretation. It’s their twisted mind!
The Holy Quran affirms the virgin birth of Jesus, and repudiates the notion that Mary was not pious and that her birth was illegitimate. The Quran narrates Mary’s statement to an angel: “How can I have a child when no man has touched me and neither have I been unchaste?” (19:21) Moreover, it is on account of her piety that Chapter 19 in the Quran is named after her, and all pious Muslims are likened to her.
A Very Rare Phenomenon
The virgin birth of Jesus was a miracle, no doubt. But according to the Ahmadiyya Muslim view, miracles always work in accordance with God’s laws, no matter how limited our understanding of those laws are. Modern science has only just begun to study this rare phenomenon.
For example, In lower animals rare instances of virgin births have been well documented, representing a complete surprise to zoologists. There are even reports — albeit scattered — of fatherless human conceptions.
Of course, research continues and the mention of these phenomena is only given here to demonstrate that what was once considered impossible can indeed be plausible.
Isa is dead and his Tomb is in Kashmir, End Of Story!
People like Psyah make Religion look irrational and dumb!
Isa is dead and his Tomb is in Kashmir, End Of Story!
lolz