Re: Getting rid of seculars
I don't think you are that naive but go visit the abdul qadir jilani thread..
I will visit religion forum when I get a chance then see what people say about him.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
Can you explain sharia laws? Your statements have a lot of contrdictions...
1) You admire freedom of religion as they have in USA, while with strict sharia laws you can not allow any religion to bulid their places of worship. Which kind of sharia law you will implement in Pakistan?
2) Idol worshippers have to be killed or exiled from the country, what will you do?
3) You have to impose Jazia tax on Ahlekitaab.
4) There are many other details of what has to implemented under sharia, eg beard, music and entertainment, compulsory veiling etc etc. What will you do when you get rid of all the seculars?
Meray Bhai, all these things were time specific, I welcome you to 2007. If you try to mix Islam with state today you will do Islam the biggest damage.....
Yazdi my ahmedi bhai....you won't get this ...will you... :)
All your points seem so childish.. Nowhere is it in Islam that with sahriah you have to do all the things you mentioned. I would just say read Islam carefully in detail without bias and you would be sorry at what you wrote.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
I have been able to test one thing for sure…
Some people here have a real problem with shariah of Muhammad :saw: .Let em imagine, what kind of people are they who although call themselves Muslims but reject what Muhammad :saw: brought and what Allah revealed.
Strange, i must say…
Muslims they are or otherwise.
Thats all I had to say… It would not be hard for any person who is well educated to understand the simple truth. Nobody is talking about killing hman beings in the name of religion. Never did i say that through shariah we subjugate people and eliminate personal freedoms. Again the word freedom is debatable and has limits even in secular societies. Anyway what to do of people who have such hatred against Islam. What to expect of them. Nothing… AFterall its just a discussion forum dominated by you know who…and owned by you know who… So I said what i felt was right. Don’t agree…its perfectly fine/…but think for a moment…its Islam which is already prevailing and will prevail… I myself was ignorant person like many here…but one can never be pessimistic about Allah’s mercy.
Call it stupidity or whatever, the renaissance of Islamic awareness is worldwide and here to stay. If that was not the case than why seculars be so afraid and stingy about everything Islamic. 
Salam and Allah Hafiz
Long live Shariah of LAST PROPHET Muhammad :saw:
Re: Getting rid of seculars
And i conclude with these verses of the glorious Quran.
*(61:9) He it is who has sent His messenger with the guidance and the concrete, constructive and purposeful way of life (*deen-il-haqq) that he may cause it to prevail over other ways of life, however much those who ascribe partners to Allah are averse.
**(3:19) **Surely the way of life (deen**) acceptable to Allah is Islam...]
(14:1) Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayest bring forth mankind from darkness into light by the permission of their Sustainer (Rabb), unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise.
(3:83) Seek they other than the* Deen* of Allah when unto Him submits whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him they will be returned?
(12:40) Those whom you serve beside Him are but names which you have named, you and your fathers. Allah has revealed no sanction for them. The decision rests with Allah only, Who has commanded you that you serve none but Him. This is the right way of life (deen), but most men know not.
(3:85) And whoso seeketh any way of life (deen) other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
(61:8) Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
Yazdi my ahmedi bhai....you won't get this ...will you... :)
All your points seem so childish.. Nowhere is it in Islam that with sahriah you have to do all the things you mentioned. I would just say read Islam carefully in detail without bias and you would be sorry at what you wrote.
All you can come up with is accusition on me being Ahmedi. Anyway I find it totally unnecessary to defend my faith in front of you. I request you to stick to more wordly debate we are having here regarding Islam to be a part of state management.
I request you to study Islam more carefully. You seem to be a person who is just fascinated with state Islam slogan by mullahs without having a clue what it really means.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
Problem with you mullah mentality people is whoever differs with you you start calling them Ahemedis, Kafirs and whatever you want. You have very easily declared me a person who hates Islam, a MUSLIM OTHERWISE (just warning bhai Allah might consider it shirk because you have started performing Allah’s task of judgement).
I totally agree with you that Islam will prevail and become stronger by each passing day. I mean real Islam and not mullahism. Mullahism has no future and will totally vanish from the face of earth…
Give me an example where Islamic sharia is implemented or was implemented. You are giving circular answers to people, that perhaps it’s being implemented in USA, but let me inform you it was implemented during the last few years of prophetic Medina life and during the tenures of Khulfa e Rashideen. During the present era it was implemented by Taliban in Afghanistan and clergy has tried to implement it in Iran.
You think people were not subjugated or were not forced to follow Islam forcibly during all these times. Let me give you some news my friend. In all these eras it was against the law to follow any other religion without accepting subjugations. For idol worshippers there was only one option if they wanted to continue with their religion. They were required to exile.
During the time of Prophet and Khulf e Rashideen sharia (state religion) was implented for some specific reasons under a divine decree. Taliban and Iranian mullah’s implemented sharia without a divine decree and without the presence of those conditions, and without looking at the principles of sunnah. You are advocating the same in present day Pakistan without having a clue what you are talking about…
This is a tragedy in Pakistan. Most of the people chanting sharia in the streets don’t have a clue what they are talking about. Mullah’s are just using these ignorant fellows to accomplish their political and economic agendas (people who know Iran know what I am talking about). This is exactly the same what happened in Iran where mullahs exploited street chanting masses and continue to rule Iran for last 30 years in a mafia style.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
REAL iSLAM VS MULLAHISM
To understand Islam we have to understand principals of Sunnah and Ilmulnazool properly. Unfortunately our religion has become hostage to intolerant, illogical mullahs who have turned Islam in to Mullahism. ISLAM IS THE MOST LOGICAL RELIGION WITH MOST ILLOGICAL FOLLOWERS….
What is Ilmul nazool:
It is the context and circumstances under which the Koranic revelations took place. In order to understand a particular Surah or Ayah it is necessary to understand particular circumstances, and logic behind that particular revelation. Here our typical mullahs give simplistic explanations by abrogating the previous one with the latest one. I’ll try to prove with the principals of sunnah that this simplistic rule is not valid. Last but not least we have to see Ilmunazool in the light of principals of sunnah. After all the best way to understand Koran is to see the example of Holy prophet.
Principals of Sunnah:
Our Holy Prophet acted differently under different circumstances. However in order to understand his action we must define certain principals which he never deviated from in his life. Let’s define those principals of sunnah.
1. Actions taken for the betterment of Islam.
2. Actions taken to make his followers better human beings.
3. Actions taken in light of logic and common sense.
In light of above three principals if we study Quran it will make understanding much easier.
For example is growing beard sunnah? Not at all, because it was just fashion of the day and did not by any standard contributed to betterment of Islam, or uplifting of humanity. Even to think growing beard uplifts Islam is against common sense. On the contrary some religious beards (not all) develop certain religious arrogance and are against rule number two. In fact these beards are against sunnah. Similarly riding a camel, adopting certain way of dressing is not sunnah.
On the contrary is abolishing slavery sunnah? Yes it is, as it conforms to all the three principals of sunnah. Although it was not practiced by Holy Prophet during his life time due to circumstances prevailing at that time, but as it conforms with the principals of sunnah it is perfectly sunnah.
Now let’s try to understand the message of Allah in the light of principals of Sunnah.
Prophetic life can be divided in to three distinct phases. In the first phase In Mecca fighting was prohibited. It was necessary to show the real and humane message of Islam. If you study the revelations of that time and see them in the light of principals of sunnah, these revelations conformed with all the three principals of sunnah. There was no need for fighting as muslims were not rulers of Mecca and whole of their concentration was on propagating the message of Islam.
The second phase of prophetic life started when Medina came under the rule of Holy Prophet. Fighting was permitted at that time against injustice and oppression. It was necessary to maintain the law and order. If you study the revelations of the time you perfectly understand them in the light of sunnah.
The third phase of prophetic life started when in Medina fighting was made obligatory. This phase was started for certain specific reasons. As the prophet had a mission to establish Islam as a major religion during his life time, in order to give an alternative religion to humankind for times to come. Also if you understand the political religious situation of the seventh century, religion used to be imposed by the rulers on people. Therefore through a divine decree prophet was asked to act aggressively and establish Islam as a major religion. If you study the revelations and actions of the prophet in light of principals of sunnah you will understand perfectly. Surah Tawbah and Al Ahzaab represent this period.
Are we required to forget the rest of Quran and follow Surah Tawbah and Alahzaab, and go on a shooting spree, killing and slaying non muslims today. The answer lies in principals of Sunnah. The need of the hour is to understand the message of these surahs in the light of logic as these surahs were revealed to prepare muslims to achieve this specific mission. In modern era of media and news, if we slay people and show the video on internet, will it be for betterment of Islam. Is religion to be forced on people today where most of the governments give you freedom to follow any religion, should we act illogically when sunnah teaches us to be logical. Why in the first phase of prophetic life our Holy Prophet did not use force to establish Islam. He was following the 3rd rule of Sunnah.
Can Islam today spread with Klashinkov shariat. How many people will be attracted to the folds of Islam by showing this kind of face to the world??? When our Holy Prophet changed his strategy according to whatever was best for Islam, why we have denounced the use of logic and take the message of Islam without considering the principals of Sunnah….
Re: Getting rid of seculars
As far as your denying the fact that Holy Prophet did not act aggressively, or was not asked by Allah to act aggressively, and he acted only in self defence I ask you to read again Quran and different tafseers explaining the context of nazool. Aggression was comitted even to the captured and surrendered people, pre emptive strikes were made, people were forcibly subdued and not always in self defence. I can go on quoting Quran and Islamic sources, and these things are not a secret…
Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him. (Q.3:85)
Fight them on until there is no more dissention and religion becomes that of Allâh. (Q.9:193)
“Fight in the way of God with those who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors (2:190)” On the authority of Ga’far ar-Razi from Rabi’ Ibn 'Ons, from 'Abil-'Aliyah who said: This is the first verse that was revealed in the Qur’an about fighting in the Madina. When it was revealed the prophet used to fight those who fight with him and avoid those who avoid him, until Sura 9 was revealed. And so is the opinion of 'Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam who said this verse was cancelled by 9:5 “Slay the idolaters wherever you find them” bn Hazm al-Andalusi, An-Nasikh wal- Mansukh, Dar al-Kotob al-'Elmeyah, birute, 1986, P.27}
Mr. Javed A Ghamidi writes in his book on Jihad:
Al-Mawrid…?articleId=124
After the truce of Hudaybiyyah, the Prophet (sws) himself singled out these nations by writing letters to them. In all, they were written to the heads of eight countries.42 Consequently, after consolidating their rule in the Arabian peninsula, the Companions (rta) launched attacks against these countries giving them two options if they wanted to remain alive: to accept faith or to accept a life of subjugation by paying Jizyah. None of these nations were adherents to polytheism in the real sense, otherwise they would have been treated in the same way as the Idolaters of Arabia.
My friend had the Holy Prophet not acted logically like that today we would not have Islam as an alternate religion to become better human beings…
MY DEAR FRIEND INSTEAD OF SUBMITTING YOUR INTELLIGENCE TO MULLAH SLOGANS OF SHARIA PLEASE STUDY CAREFULLY QURAN UNDER THE PRINCIPLES OF SUNNAH AND ILMULNAZOOL AND TRY TO UNDERSTAND WHY IT WAS APPLICABLE AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME AND WHY IT IS NOT APPLICABLE TODAY…
Re: Getting rid of seculars
And i conclude with these verses of the glorious Quran.
*(61:9) He it is who has sent His messenger with the guidance and the concrete, constructive and purposeful way of life (*deen-il-haqq) that he may cause it to prevail over other ways of life, however much those who ascribe partners to Allah are averse.
**(3:19) **Surely the way of life (deen**) acceptable to Allah is Islam...]
(14:1) Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayest bring forth mankind from darkness into light by the permission of their Sustainer (Rabb), unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise.
(3:83) Seek they other than the* Deen* of Allah when unto Him submits whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him they will be returned?
(12:40) Those whom you serve beside Him are but names which you have named, you and your fathers. Allah has revealed no sanction for them. The decision rests with Allah only, Who has commanded you that you serve none but Him. This is the right way of life (deen), but most men know not.
(3:85) And whoso seeketh any way of life (deen) other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
(61:8) Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.
Surely it is the best deen and religion. May Allah give both you and me the true guidance from all the above verses as well as whole of Quran.
However please refrain from implenting your religion on others through state machinery or Jihadi AK 47. Both are against the principles of sunnah....
Re: Getting rid of seculars
Give me an example where Islamic sharia is implemented or was implemented.
In addition to Taliban and Iran, Saudi Arabia is another country where sharia is implemented by divine monarchy.
I think problem with sharia law is that people tend to get confused between Islam and Arabs...they're not the same. Lot of stuff in sharia comes from pre-Islamic Arab culture which has nothing to do with Islam nor is it implementable in diverse society like ours. Sharia was ok in early days of Islam b/c entire Muslim World was very small, and there were no sect conflicts. That is why it was an ideal system at that time, which is not the case anymore.
Anyway, I want to ask following questions to the proponents of sharia in Pakistan:
1) What kind of vision do you have for the country?
2)What kind of government will we have under this system?
3) Will we have elections to pick our leaders or is it going to be headed Islamic scholars?
4) Who will pick these scholars, and how will general public have voice in this govt?
5)What about economic policies especially in modern context of interconnect world?
6)What about interest base banking keeping mind that we borrow heavily from institutions like IMF and World Bank? (They wont give us money unless we pay them interest)
Will add more later, but I think thats enough for now.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
they even declare Qauid e Azam as secular although he was great muslim not secular
i think u don't know that quaid e azam also ate pork and was never/rarely seen in a mosque. and also the only one leading "freedom fighter" who was never jailed(didn't know this. came to know recently)...
Re: Getting rid of seculars
In addition to Taliban and Iran, Saudi Arabia is another country where sharia is implemented by divine monarchy.
I think problem with sharia law is that people tend to get confused between Islam and Arabs...they're not the same. Lot of stuff in sharia comes from pre-Islamic Arab culture which has nothing to do with Islam nor is it implementable in diverse society like ours. Sharia was ok in early days of Islam b/c entire Muslim World was very small, and there were no sect conflicts. That is why it was an ideal system at that time, which is not the case anymore.
Anyway, I want to ask following questions to the proponents of sharia in Pakistan:
1) What kind of vision do you have for the country?
2)What kind of government will we have under this system?
3) Will we have elections to pick our leaders or is it going to be headed Islamic scholars?
4) Who will pick these scholars, and how will general public have voice in this govt?
5)What about economic policies especially in modern context of interconnect world?
6)What about interest base banking keeping mind that we borrow heavily from institutions like IMF and World Bank? (They wont give us money unless we pay them interest)
Will add more later, but I think thats enough for now.
Dear shamraz bhai,
You want to know what real sunnah is....
Change your course of actions logically and whatever is best for Islam according to the circumstances and time prevailing as far as social and state matters are concerned...
For your personal belief system there should be no compromise....
Re: Getting rid of seculars
waoww as soon as the thread started secular or you can say enimies of islam has started bombardment
they even declare Qauid e Azam as secular although he was great muslim not secular
Hey Maulana Meherealone,
Who gave you authority to call any one enemy if Islam.....
Quideazam was a secular, don't try to distort history by calling him Mualana Quideazam.....
Re: Getting rid of seculars
by ur this post , it is obvious how much you dislike islam by start saying Mullah mullah etc etc
you are really consfused to how to defame islam and when nothing came into your hand you start talking mullah mullah
:d you even don't know in western ideologies there are almost every thing which islam says to implement in your country and muslim had implemented thoes in their state during Sahaba times and later you are totally unaware of history my bahi
admiring western ideologies doesn't mean that we should admire their bad things as well
honest men only admire that is good and don't like that is bad but slave only admire all good and bad things of their masters
I really don't want to debate with you on anything because I can not scoop so low and don't want to speak your language.....
Re: Getting rid of seculars
I don't think you are that naive but go visit the abdul qadir jilani thread..
okay, I just visited the thread, didn't get chance to go through each and every post but got a gist of it... so what is so wrong there? I already mentioned in my earlier post that people attribute many false attributes to a wali and make him a God living amongst human being.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
Pakistan was founded by MAJ, not some bearded Mullah... And its a fact of history that Pakistan was created in consideration of the Political and religous aspirations of Muslims... This does not mean that Pakistan was made as a theocratic state...
Jinnah said it himself... As miuch as you like to refuse the fact that Pakistan was NOT created to be a theocratic Islamic state, the ground realities soeak for themselves. All Pakistanis are guaranteed the right to practice their relgion, but that is not the bussines of the state, and it never will be. Whether you like it or not, Pakistan was created by Jinnah to be a secular country, in which Muslim are the majority, much like Turkey, except Pakistan wouldnt be as confrontational towards Islam.
An Islamic state is not a theocratic state. An Islamic state is the only true democratic and free state. And Pakistan will be this Islamic state that is the only true democratic and free state, whether you like it or not.
Pakistan was not founded only by MAJ. There were a lot of other people involved. Furthermore, MAJ wanted Pakistan to be a true democratic state, which is only possible in an Islamic state.
In an Islamic state, all Pakistanis will have freedom of religion. But it will be an Islamic state, because only an Islamic state is a true democratic and free state.
Ha! I like the way you put it: Pakistan would be like Turkey but not as confrontational towards Islam. So there would be some confrontation?
Turkey is not a free state. Pakistan is not Turkey. Dream on brother if you think Pakistan is ever going to be like Turkey!
Re: Getting rid of seculars
Hey Maulana Meherealone,
Who gave you authority to call any one enemy if Islam.....
Quideazam was a secular, don't try to distort history by calling him Mualana Quideazam.....
He wasn't secular. If he was secular he would have allowed Pakistan to remain within India.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
He wasn't secular. If he was secular he would have allowed Pakistan to remain within India.
He was secular... He only wanted a secular country where the Muslims were the majority.
Read your history.
Re: Getting rid of seculars
An Islamic state is not a theocratic state. An Islamic state is the only true democratic and free state. And Pakistan will be this Islamic state that is the only true democratic and free state, whether you like it or not.
Pakistan was not founded only by MAJ. There were a lot of other people involved. Furthermore, MAJ wanted Pakistan to be a true democratic state, which is only possible in an Islamic state.
In an Islamic state, all Pakistanis will have freedom of religion. But it will be an Islamic state, because only an Islamic state is a true democratic and free state.
Ha! I like the way you put it: Pakistan would be like Turkey but not as confrontational towards Islam. So there would be some confrontation?
Turkey is not a free state. Pakistan is not Turkey. Dream on brother if you think Pakistan is ever going to be like Turkey!
Name me all islamic states which are a true democratic and free state!!! U can't mix religion and politics, because as humans we are all 2 incompetent to make such a system work properly and freely!!!