Genocide in Kashmir

[janab-e-ali]

"There is evidence that from the outset regular troops and police in the State service joined informally and covertly, but enthusiastically, in these atrocities which, some have estimated, eventually resulted in the death of at least 200,000 Muslims and drove twice as many into exile."
Alastair Lamb, Incomplete Partition: The Genesis of the Kashmir Dispute 1947-1948, page 128.

"But in the Jammu Province, things went very differently. There, unlike every other part of the State, Hindus and Sikhs slightly outnumbered Muslims; and within a period of eleven weeks starting in August, systematic savageries, similar to those already launched in East Punjab and in Patiala and Kapurthala, practically eliminated the entire Muslim element in the population, amounting to 500,000 people. About 200,000 just disappeared, remaining untraceable, having presumably been butchered, or died from epidemics or exposure. The rest fled destitute to West Punjab….This writer talked about it early in the following month with Mr. Gandhi, deducing that, even more than the carnage in and around Delhi itself, it explained the despairing mood of that great teacher of ahimsa during his last few weeks of life."
Ian Stephens, *Pakistan, *page 200.

Feel free to keep your head in the sand. It won't change history.

[aam_bandha]

.....

The Times of London reported that 237,000 had been killed as of October 10, 1947. If you can't accept even the most basic facts, then that's just pathetic

"Commenting on the Raja's reign of terror, the Times of London observed. 237,000 Muslims were systematically exterminated, unless they escaped to Pakistan along the border by the force of the Dogra State headed by the Maharaja in person

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Janab ..... i just want your comments on what you said ....... did you twist the words as they suited you ......

[aam_bandha]

@janab-e-ali

“There is evidence that from the outset regular troops and police in the State service joined informally and covertly, but enthusiastically, in these atrocities which, some have estimated, eventually resulted in the death of at least 200,000 Muslims and drove twice as many into exile.”
Alastair Lamb, Incomplete Partition: The Genesis of the Kashmir Dispute 1947-1948, page 128.

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6. According to Alastair Lamb, in Jammu about 500,000 Muslims were displaced forcibly by hindus and sikhs and as many as 200,000 of them disappered in August, Septemeber and October of 1947, prior to the tribesmen raid of Kashmir. Alastair Lamb, Kashmir: A Disputed Legacy, 1846-1990 (Hertfordshire: Roxford Books, 1991), p.123.

Pakistan’s Drift Into Extremism … - Google Book Search

Well you friend Alastair seems to change his mind now … disappered or killed … your " 200,000 people killed" story is fast losing its credibility.

[Shogun_Ninjuku]

Re: Genocide in Kashmir

Pakistanis will always claim that highest number of people were killed by Indian troops and Indians will always claim the highest number of people were killed by Pakistani troops.

There is no way for anybody to ascertain what the exact number is. However what cannot be refuted is that the number of Hindus killed, forcibly converted and otherwise displaced by muslims is far far far more than the vice versa.

The problem with muslims is that they only want to read one side of the story - for example

during partition, both Hindus and Muslims were killed but they always quote only the muslim count

or in the 1990's militancy in Kashmir, they only quote how many Indian troops killed and totally want to ignore how many terrorists from Pakistan killed. If Pakistani cross-border attacks hadn't happened and if some local muslims hadn't aided adn abetted with them, the Indian army wouldn't have to exercise such rigid control there in the first place - so in that respect even a majority of assaults by Indian forces are a result of Pakistani attackers and their local moles.

[Saad_UAE]

Re: Genocide in Kashmir

How does it make a difference whether more than 8,000 are missing or 10,000. Facts are already there, Indian atrocities continue, occupation continues and innocent people continue to pay for their freedom with their lives.

[chintu_bhopali]

How does it make a difference whether more than 8,000 are missing or 10,000. Facts are already there, Indian atrocities continue, occupation continues and innocent people continue to pay for their freedom with their lives.

well the occupation continues from pakistan side too. You too have pakistan occupied kashmir.

[janab-e-ali]

@aam_bandha

1. According to Alastair Lamb, in Jammu about 500,000 Muslims were displaced forcibly by hindus and sikhs and as many as 200,000 of them disappered in August, Septemeber and October of 1947, prior to the tribesmen raid of Kashmir. Alastair Lamb, Kashmir: A Disputed Legacy, 1846-1990 (Hertfordshire: Roxford Books, 1991), p.123.

Did you even bother reading the quote you posted?

500,000 migrated. 200,000 disappeared. Unless you're some sad little Indian/Hindu bigot trying to defend genocide, those 200,000 disappeared persons are presumed to be dead...all of these war time/genocidal death tolls (including the one from E. Pakistan that you always use to justify your nation's war crimes) are based on disappearances and census data, not body counts. Your petty & pathetic denial is every bit as laughable as a Pakistani chauvinist trying to argue that the hundreds of thousand of Bengalis butchered in E. Pakistan in 1971 actually just fled to India.

[aam_bandha]

@janab-e-ali

500,000 migrated. 200,000 disappeared. Unless you're some sad little Indian/Hindu bigot trying to defend genocide, those 200,000 disappeared persons are presumed to be dead....

Janab excepting for you no one is presuming these 200,000 are dead. As i said even Azad J&K offical website has no mention of this excepting with the reference to the Times report. If 200,000 people had been killed in Jammu do you think there would have been no proof and there would have be no stories ...... show me one ...... 31 people were killed fighting the maharaja in Kashmir (1931 !!!!!) and that day is celebrated as " Martyr's day" . What kind of muslims are you ..... not a day for remeberence of these 200,000 killed ..... was it because they were in Jammu and not from Kashmiri stock!!!!!
or was it that this never happened ... time to wake up & smell the coffee or whatever you indulge in

[Saad_UAE]

Somebody said in another thread that Kasmiri’s are losing interest in freedom. Generation after generation this sense is increasing, if anything else.

Kashmiris shouting pro-freedom slogans during a rally to mark the anniversary of “Martyrs’ Day” in Srinagar July 13, 2008. Rallies were held at Martyrs graveyard by parties to mark the anniversary of the July 13, 1931 killing of dozens of Kashmiris gunned down by police during a protest against the Hindu Maharaja Hari Singh, then ruler of the Himalayan region.

[janab-e-ali]

@aam_bandha

Janab excepting for you no one is presuming these 200,000 are dead. As i said even Azad J&K offical website has no mention of this excepting with the reference to the Times report. If 200,000 people had been killed in Jammu do you think there would have been no proof and there would have be no stories ...... show me one ...... 31 people were killed fighting the maharaja in Kashmir (1931 !!!!!) and that day is celebrated as " Martyr's day" . What kind of muslims are you ..... not a day for remeberence of these 200,000 killed ..... was it because they were in Jammu and not from Kashmiri stock!!!!! or was it that this never happened ... time to wake up & smell the coffee or whatever you indulge in

You are so blinded by your hatred of Muslims that you fail to recognize basic facts when they stare you in the face...I don't know whether its sad or just plain pathetic.

Yet another quote from Alastair Lamb, from a book published 6 years **after **the one you reference.
"There was indeed a civil war raging in Poonch. In Jammu at that very moment the Maharaja was engaged in a series of massacres of Muslims which some observers have considered to have been the nastiest of all in the wave of atrocities which followed immediately upon the Transfer of Power: conservative estimates suggest over 200,000 deaths here between August and December 1947. These events, naturally enough, set hordes of refugees on the move into Pakistan."

I think I'm more inclined to believe the interpretation of a prominent historian over that of an openly bigoted keyboard warrior who can barely spell in the English language, let alone properly interpret original sources.

[Shogun_Ninjuku]

Re: Genocide in Kashmir

Alistair Lamb seems to have been one helluva fiction writer. read the following and see how much this guy lacks credibility when it comes to this issue; my takeaway from all this: be careful about using this guy's books as credible source for any stance

Following from Rediff.com:

cynics have continued to doubt the legality of Kashmir's accession. A historian, Alastair Lamb, in Birth of A Tragedy: 1947 claimed 'On the present evidence it is by no means clear that the Maharaja (of Kashmir) ever did sign an Instrument of Accession... The Instrument of Accession may never have existed...' He also states '' To judge from the White Paper (on Jammu and Kashmir issued by the Government of India, 1948) an Instrument of Accession may not have been signed by March 1948...' Finally, he also challenges the Indian contention that the Maharaja of Kashmir signed the Instrument of Accession on October 26, 1947, one day before the Indian troops landed at Srinagar. In support of his rebuttal, Lamb states that i. during October 26, 1947 the Maharaja was travelling by road from Srinagar to Jammu, and ii. the account of V P Menon, secretary of the Ministry of States, in his book The Integration of Indian states, London, 1950, that he was actually present when the Maharaja signed the Instrument is simply not true because many observers noted Menon's presence in Delhi on October 26.
Let's sort out the dates first. Justice A S Anand's book mentions that 'To save his life, Maharaja Hari Singh left Srinagar on 25th October, and went to Jammu, the winter capital of Kashmir.' Note Justice Anand's date: October 25, not October 26 as mentioned by Lamb. Further, according to Jagmohan V P Menon was in Srinagar on October 25, 1947 to assess the situation caused by Srinagar being plunged into darkness consequent to the capture a day earlier of the Mohara power station by the raiders from Pakistani territory; nothing 'the stillness of the graveyard all round', Menon proceeded to have discussions with the Maharaja.
*So who is right? A law graduate who did his doctoral thesis at London university based on authentic material in the British Museum library and the Indian high commission in London, and a senior official of the Government of India intimately connected with the Kashmir issue, or a historian who draws conclusions without a semblance of concrete evidence in support? *
Alastair Lamb's credibility stands destroyed by an article by political commentator, Sumant Bannerjee. In that article Bannerjee states that the same documents which Lamb uses selectively to prove that the central government in Pakistan was not officially a party of the raid in Kashmir were used by *Ayesha Jalal, a Pakistani political scientist, to arrive at a different conclusion altogether! Thus, in her *The State of Martial Rule, 1990, Jalal asserts that, 'The government of Pakistan with the connivance of the frontier ministry was actively promoting the sentiments that had encouraged the tribesmen to invade Kashmir.' **
She then adds that 'Pakistani officers, conveniently on leave from the army, were certainly fighting alongside the Azad Forces -- a conglomerate of Kashmiri Muslims and Pathani tribesmen.'
As regards Lamb's outrageous scepticism regarding the very existence of an Instrument of Accession and the Maharaja of Kashmir ever having signed it, he is palpably ignorant of the letter which the Maharaja sent on January 31, 1948 to India's home minister. In that letter, cited on page 93 of Jagmohan's earlier referred book, the Maharaja wrote, inter-alia, 'There is an alternative possible for me and that is to withdraw the Accession...'

Would Lamb have us believe then that the Maharaja of Kashmir threatened to withdraw something which he had not signed in the first place? Would Lamb also have us believe that Lord Mountbatten, India's governor-general then, and Nehru's government were taking the British government, the Pakistan government and the entire UN Security Council for a ride over the Instrument of Accession signed by the Maharaja of Kashmir?
Justice Anand's doctoral thesis would seem to have sealed it all by quoting from Alan Campbell-Johnson's Mission With Mountbatten, (1951), wherein the Englishman says 'The legality of the accession is beyond doubt... It should be stressed that the accession has complete validity both in terms of the British government's and Jinnah's expressed policy statements.'

[aam_bandha]

@janab-e-ali

I think I'm more inclined to believe the interpretation of a prominent historian over that of an openly bigoted keyboard warrior who can barely spell in the English language, let alone properly interpret original sources.

Janab as you said ... it is his interpretation .... but alas not the facts ..... what can i say about Alaistar Lamb .... his english is better then mine so you can belive him :D After all facts is the last thing you are looking for .....

But then the fact remains that nothing like this happened ....... you better call Hurriayat as they need one more reason to call the bundh, they seem to have forgoten the "sacrifices"of these 200,000+ people.