Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi · July 13, 2014, 3:42pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

see that is where we lose the plot.....I agree 5000% and i said it many times that there is no justification to Israel's disproportionate reaction. This is a given. Who ever said that isarel has right to act the way it acts?

but after 50 years, i want to move on to the next level of debate among muslim circles...i want to save lives of my sisters and kids in Palestine.

**1) I want to step back and reflect upon disproportionate power that israel has in a more realistic way and accept it as a reality for now....

2) I want to step back and reflect upon hypocrisy of western powers in a more realistic fashion than an idealist and accept it as a reality for now

3) I want to step back and reflect upon complete impotence of muslim countries realistically and finally accept it as an ultimate reality forever
**
I am sick of muslims keep repeating moral doctrine again and again and somehow hoping facts 1, 2 and 3 to change in favor of Palestinian .

They wont change and therefore i want muslims, and Palestinians finally to start thinking out of the box, accept reality and be more flexible. Start working with what they have, reject terrorist policies of Hamas, reject extreme corrupt leadership that Palestinians have. is it also West fault that Palestinians leadership is so corrupt and failed to do any development work in gaza?

Jolie · July 13, 2014, 3:55pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

see that is where we lose the plot.....I agree 5000% and i said it many times that there is no justification to Israel's disproportionate reaction. This is a given. Who ever said that isarel has right to act the way it acts?

but after 50 years, i want to move on to the next level of debate among muslim circles...i want to save lives of my sisters and kids in Palestine.

1) I want to step back and reflect upon disproportionate power that israel has in a more realistic way and accept it as a reality for now....

2) I want to step back and reflect upon h*ypocrisy of western powers and accept it as a reality* as of now

3) I want to step back and reflect upon complete impotence of muslim countries and accept it as a reality

I am sick of muslims keep repeating moral doctrine again and again and somehow hoping facts 1, 2 and 3 will somehow change in favor of Palestinian . They wont and therefore i want muslims, and Palestinians finally trart thinking out of the box, accept reality and be more flexible.

Your wishy washy rhetoric basically comes across as a callous and docile excuse that Palestinians should just shut up, put up with daily dehumanisation violence by the hands of Nazis and simply wait for their death in an open air prison. All you are saying is: Please Don't blame A; don't ask for anything from B and certainly don't even point finger at C, with this logic what the hell do you expect them to do? Where is the solution? You want Gazans to suddenly start acting like lovey dovey neighbours while half of their country is either stinking wasteland or a graveyard. Even if you take Hamas out of the picture, how do you stop aggressive Israeli expansion and land theft? How do you stop them from building settlements? Hamas should not not fire crackers, but how do you make Israel follow the Geneva Convention?

You maybe annoyed and angered by morality and don't agree with it, but trust it, at the end of the day all we need is good dose of morality (from all sides) to solve this conflict.

Asking rich Arab countries to use power of diplomacy to solve this crises is thinking out of the box. Asking world powers who do not hesitate to invade and bomb countries in the name of Human Rights and democracy to use the power of diplomacy and apply their own rules and laws to solve this crises is thinking out of the box.

Just replace Palestine with South Africa, and I'd like to see the ridiculous twists and turns some of the posts will take in this thread.

phoenixdesi · July 13, 2014, 4:09pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

Jolie:

Your wishy washy rhetoric basically comes across as a callous excuse that Palestinians should just shut up, put up with daily dehumanisation violence by the hands of Nazis and simply wait for their death in an open air prison. All you are saying is: Please Don't blame A; don't ask for anything from B and certainly don't even point finger at C, with this logic what the hell do you expect them to do? Where is the solution? You want Gazans to suddenly start acting like lovey dovey neighbours while half of their country is either stinking wasteland or a graveyard. Even if you take Hamas out of the picture, how do you stop aggressive Israeli expansion and land theft? How do you stop them from building settlement?

You maybe annoyed by morality and don't agree with it, but trust it, at the end of the day all we need is good dose of morality (from all sides) to solve this conflict.

first you should stay calm instead of being a fireball all the time...much appreciated!

sure, you can distort and say whatever you want to say but where did i say that we shd stop doing 1, 2, and 3? *We should and we have been condemning usa, west, israel and muslim ummah and WE SHD CONTINUE DOING THAT. How many times i have to say this? *

but given 1, 2 and 3 are also harsh realities, what the hell Hamas gets by doing what it does? ZERO except more blood of Palestinian kids.

So first and foremost muslim countries, muslim masses, muslim intelligentsia and more importantly Palestinians shd accept that hamas and hazb allah is a huge problem and need to be removed/neutralized.

Fine that you and ehsan bhai denounce hamas, but 99.99% of muslim world does not. half of the muslim world support hamas (militarily and financially) and other half support hazb...so shunning them will be a huge academic and strategic shift which will take some effort. but that does not mean we are accepting zionist acts and or supporting usa/west hypocrisy. we shd keep condemning them at every front. Pleaseeeeeeeeeee dont mix these 2 things.

Second...yes arab countries will never condemn or fight israel/usa (part of accepting reality 3) so dont expect that from them but they can easily put a $20B+ fund under the supervision of saudi arabia/UAE/turkey focused on infrastructure development in gaza for next 10 years. Again, not easy but once step 1 will be achieved, step 2 will become more practical.

Jolie · July 13, 2014, 4:12pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

see that is where we lose the plot.....I agree 5000% and i said it many times that there is no justification to Israel's disproportionate reaction. This is a given. Who ever said that isarel has right to act the way it acts?

but after 50 years, i want to move on to the next level of debate among muslim circles...i want to save lives of my sisters and kids in Palestine.

**1) I want to step back and reflect upon disproportionate power that israel has in a more realistic way and accept it as a reality for now....

2) I want to step back and reflect upon hypocrisy of western powers in a more realistic fashion than an idealist and accept it as a reality for now

3) I want to step back and reflect upon complete impotence of muslim countries realistically and finally accept it as an ultimate reality forever ** I am sick of muslims keep repeating moral doctrine again and again and somehow hoping facts 1, 2 and 3 to change in favor of Palestinian .

They wont change and therefore i want muslims, and Palestinians finally to start thinking out of the box, accept reality and be more flexible. Start working with what they have, reject terrorist policies of Hamas, reject extreme corrupt leadership that Palestinians have.** is it also West fault that Palestinians leadership is so corrupt and failed to do any development work in gaza?**

Now you are just being silly. Have you seen images of utter material destruction in Palestine due to missile and mortal shelling from Israel? Even you have admitted that such brutal, merciless, mass destruction takes place every few years, so pray tell, how on earth can you track any development work in a warn torn open air wasteland when wanton material destruction takes place every other year due to full fledged strikes? Common sense would suggest that stop heavy bombing of civilian area as collective punishment every other year and then we'll be in better position to judge development work. As we speak, a centre for disabled people is lying completely demolished in Gaza.

Captain1 · July 13, 2014, 4:21pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

see that is where we lose the plot.....I agree 5000% and i said it many times that there is no justification to Israel's disproportionate reaction. This is a given. Who ever said that isarel has right to act the way it acts?

but after 50 years, i want to move on to the next level of debate among muslim circles...i want to save lives of my sisters and kids in Palestine.

**1) I want to step back and reflect upon disproportionate power that israel has in a more realistic way and accept it as a reality for now....

2) I want to step back and reflect upon hypocrisy of western powers in a more realistic fashion than an idealist and accept it as a reality for now

3) I want to step back and reflect upon complete impotence of muslim countries realistically and finally accept it as an ultimate reality forever ** I am sick of muslims keep repeating moral doctrine again and again and somehow hoping facts 1, 2 and 3 to change in favor of Palestinian .

They wont change and therefore i want muslims, and Palestinians finally to start thinking out of the box, accept reality and be more flexible. Start working with what they have, reject terrorist policies of Hamas, reject extreme corrupt leadership that Palestinians have. is it also West fault that Palestinians leadership is so corrupt and failed to do any development work in gaza?

Basically you want Palestinian people to bend forward and stay that way and keep hoping that Israel will not rape them again?

Jolie · July 13, 2014, 4:23pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

first you should stay calm instead of being a fireball all the time...much appreciated!

sure, you can distort and say whatever you want to say but where did i say that we shd stop doing 1, 2, and 3? *We should and we have been condemning usa, west, israel and muslim ummah and WE SHD CONTINUE DOING THAT. How many times i have to say this? *

but given 1, 2 and 3 are also harsh realities, what the hell Hamas gets by doing what it does? ZERO except more blood of Palestinian kids.

So first and foremost muslim countries, muslim masses, muslim intelligentsia and more importantly Palestinians shd accept that hamas and hazb allah is a huge problem and need to be removed/neutralized.

Fine that you and ehsan bhai denounce hamas, but 99.99% of muslim world does not. half of the muslim world support hamas (militarily and financially) and other half support hazb...so shunning them will be a huge academic and strategic shift which will take some effort. but that does not mean we are accepting zionist acts and or supporting usa/west hypocrisy. we shd keep condemning them at every front. Pleaseeeeeeeeeee dont mix these 2 things.

Second...yes arab countries will never condemn or fight israel/usa (part of accepting reality 3) so dont expect that from them but they can easily put a $20B+ fund under the supervision of saudi arabia/UAE/turkey focused on infrastructure development in gaza for next 10 years. Again, not easy but once step 1 will be achieved, step 2 will become more practical.

Thanks for clarifying that. Much appreciated. I am calm, just can't be bothered about being meek.

ehsan · July 13, 2014, 4:26pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

Some of you ask me what is my solution and some are wondering what is wrong with hamas..afterall they are only fighting for their homeland

first i am glad that the discussion is finally moving towards a more actionable mode vs posting those i-hate-you-israel notes which every muslim is so fond of doing...and then go back to eating lavish dinner, have sex and sleep

Now let me reflect on what is terribly wrong with hamas strategy...Here is what Hamas strategy is. They believe that that time is on their side. and therefore they believe in creating tension and situations that lead to brutal Israel intervention into gaza.

By doing so, Hamas wants to demonstrate to worldwide public opinion again and again that the Palestinians have been suffering by the Israelis living out their days in horrible conditions where they are denied basic rights.

they also keep on firing those rockets so that it causes enough unrest in Israeli public and make then psychologically tried and afraid of this unending war

Hamas hopes that finally....yes finally somehow under global public pressure, under Israeli public's desire to end this war, and under arab/turkish pressure, Israel and his daddy USA will either pull back from the West Bank, thereby allowing the establishment of a fully independent Palestinian state, or will grant full political rights within Israel to the Palestinian people — a move that would turn Israel into a binational state.

and I am saying with full conviction that neither has any chance of happening. Hamas and before hamas PLO has tried it for over 60 years and they have been wrong and will simply bring more and more agony to its people. Arafat finallt realized it and tried to chnage the course but hamas, hazb allah destroyed him because they dont want to give any chance to peace..obviously zionst elements dont want peace either but we know what zionists want. i am reflecting upon hamas.

hence hamas is a terrorist organization in my books.

Not a word bout the land grab by the terrorist state
Not a word about keeping the whole population locked in land strip which is virtual jail (gaza strip).
not word about how this affects the population
Not a word that this is the main reason hamas is popular in these areas
Not a word that it is the result of these Nazi policies that this is happening and also because these Nazis have full backing of big daddy. Shame you only see one side of the picture.

hamas is terrorist organisation, Israel is a bigger terrorist organisation, your solution is no solution.

phoenixdesi · July 13, 2014, 4:32pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

Fine if you keep thinking that i dont see other side...everything you said I am in 2000% agreement but do i need to type all this to show how moral I am? USA is the biggest culprit for supporting Israeli policies.

Agaian and if you bother to read my posts, I am acknowledging everything that you posted above but what next? that is where i start...but looks like i need to type "moral doctrine" first which i firmy believe, by the way.

khoji · July 13, 2014, 4:40pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

There is a limit to Muslim bashing. The conflict between Zionists and Palestinians define this limit.
some people need to out aise their Muslim hatred in this case.

khoji · July 13, 2014, 4:44pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

Well, don't need to say it. It is obvious.

phoenixdesi · July 13, 2014, 4:47pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

In any debate i never go for "i have the last word". I have laid out my case and will do one last time:

1) Israel is a najayaz kid of western powers and USA...being supported by USA shamelessly forever. I do not believe in and or support isareli zionist expansion and brutal policies and condemn them at every forum and will continue to do that. I really mean each and every word of it

2) Already explained by me in detail why but i do believe that Hamas is a terrorist/nuisance organization causing nothing but trouble for Palestinian people again and again . Its policies have failed and they bring more and more agony for poor innocent Palestinians.
**
3) Considering Hamas policies support israel a great platform to launch attack on Gaza and considering hamas is not providing any viable strategic support to Palestinian cause other than bringing blood and tears to poor Palestinians while hamas hides in underground tunnels**, it makes even more sense for muslim world, muslim masses, muslim intelligentsia, mulsim media and Palestinians to start condemning/neutralizing hamas and hazb allah and take them out.

This will be a huge academic and strategic shift among muslim mindset and it will take time. Plus Muslim countries shd stop funding them.

*4) For sake of clarity, step 3 does not mean for one second that muslims shd stop condemning Isarel and USA. use every possible chance to condemn them, boycott them and ridicule them in UN and else. *

5) I believe that once step 3 is taken by muslims and hamas hostile actions are being condemned by muslims, israel will be under more pressure. it will strengthen moderate political forces in israel, weaken zionist regime and there will be far more international pressure on isarel to open up gaza. they always use hamas as an excuse

6) In parallel arab countries can finally do something practical that they are totally capable of doing. yes arab countries will never condemn or fight israel/usa, so dont expect this from them but they can easily put a $20B+ fund under the supervision of saudi arabia/UAE/turkey focused on infrastructure development in gaza for next 10 years under a governing body from these countries not freakin mahmodd abbas corrupt leadership. West will easily throw in 20B+ as well.

Again, not easy but once step 3 will be achieved, other steps will become more practical. This is just an attempt to be more pro active, look beyond current status quo and to see what can muslims do on their end in addition to keep condemning israelis which we shd keep on doing, by the way.

Please no need to use foul/insulting language because these are my thoughts and i have every right to express them in a civilized way..thx

khoji · July 13, 2014, 4:51pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

You are not starting anywhere. You are advocating Zionist Nazi position for Palestinians to give up their freedom and accept whatever is imposed upon them.

Rejecting or accepting Hamas or extremists is not any issue at all. The root cause of the problem is NaZionist occupation of Palestine.
your solution is nothing but a Zionist propaganda.

Your support to Israel me your callousness towards Palestinian cause has just exposed exactly what you are.

phoenixdesi · July 13, 2014, 4:56pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

you should be ashamed for doing what you just did. that is all i will say.

psyah · July 13, 2014, 6:20pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

Guys, if you want to call me callous yahoodi agent, i am fine with it... but in response to my stand against hamas, please

do not start educating me on the historical context of Israel and Palestinian

start telling me israeli reaction is disproportional (hell it is so obvious and we know how brutal israel regime is)

start telling me how pathetic living conditions are in gaza...

i know all of that very well...actually been to gaza as part of a water/wastewater testament plant project under world bank funding in early 2000s and know the ground situation very well...

and i am telling you that it is hamas strategy to create tension every few years so that israel reacts so brutally and disproportionally , kills hundreds of innocent Palestinians so that hamas can get more sympathies of Palestinian public and of international community. Peace simply does not suit hamas

My question for all of you is....other than condemning Israelis and writing long emotional notes, how come none of you have thought of any other solution that will actually save lives of poor Palestinians?

and No No NO, keep referring to spineless msulim ummah or hypocrisy of western powers is not a solution. that is status quo..we already know that

The only way to protect the Palestinians is to remove them from the land and let the Israelis in, but then there will be the problem of all those extra people - refugees in other Arab lands.

There is no way that Palestine will form in any political form with physical boundaries that are consistent with a modern country ... world bank funding? What a laugh ... Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians. If any attempt of Hamas makes for "getting sympathies" it is nothing compared to the Israeli propaganda ... You don't blame the underdog - you blame the one who has the might to either refrain or oppress. There is no justice in your words - it is not about being called a yahoodi agent ... or not ... clearly you are in denial which is worse than being a yahoodi agent ... at least they know they are in the wrong.

psyah · July 13, 2014, 6:24pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

In any debate i never go for "i have the last word". I have laid out my case and will do one last time:

1) Israel is a najayaz kid of western powers and USA...being supported by USA shamelessly forever. I do not believe in and or support isareli zionist expansion and brutal policies and condemn them at every forum and will continue to do that. I really mean each and every word of it

2) Already explained by me in detail why but i do believe that Hamas is a terrorist/nuisance organization causing nothing but trouble for Palestinian people again and again . Its policies have failed and they bring more and more agony for poor innocent Palestinians. ** 3) Considering Hamas policies support israel a great platform to launch attack on Gaza and considering hamas is not providing any viable strategic support to Palestinian cause other than bringing blood and tears to poor Palestinians while hamas hides in underground tunnels**, it makes even more sense for muslim world, muslim masses, muslim intelligentsia, mulsim media and Palestinians to start condemning/neutralizing hamas and hazb allah and take them out.

This will be a huge academic and strategic shift among muslim mindset and it will take time. Plus Muslim countries shd stop funding them.

*4) For sake of clarity, step 3 does not mean for one second that muslims shd stop condemning Isarel and USA. use every possible chance to condemn them, boycott them and ridicule them in UN and else. *

5) I believe that once step 3 is taken by muslims and hamas hostile actions are being condemned by muslims, israel will be under more pressure. it will strengthen moderate political forces in israel, weaken zionist regime and there will be far more international pressure on isarel to open up gaza. they always use hamas as an excuse

6) In parallel arab countries can finally do something practical that they are totally capable of doing. yes arab countries will never condemn or fight israel/usa, so dont expect this from them but they can easily put a $20B+ fund under the supervision of saudi arabia/UAE/turkey focused on infrastructure development in gaza for next 10 years under a governing body from these countries not freakin mahmodd abbas corrupt leadership. West will easily throw in 20B+ as well.

Again, not easy but once step 3 will be achieved, other steps will become more practical. This is just an attempt to be more pro active, look beyond current status quo and to see what can muslims do on their end in addition to keep condemning israelis which we shd keep on doing, by the way.

Please no need to use foul/insulting language because these are my thoughts and i have every right to express them in a civilized way..thx

The point that you are failing to realise ...

If Hamas is causing problems for the Palestinians then it serves Israel's interest to keep Hamas in power until they have totally subdued the indigenous people of the region. I personally think that lives should be saved ... but the Palestinians are going to fight ... Hamas is growing because the Palestinians make it up ... It represents them ... This may in itself cause more heavy-handedness towards the people ... but for them they would sooner be attacked than subdued ... I'm not sure that is wise either ... But we are living in a modern era ... An era when this sort of stuff should not be happening ... A more powerful regime is the one that should be spoken to and sense brought to them - you don't blame the underdog ... they will stop when their oppression stops.

phoenixdesi · July 13, 2014, 7:08pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

I am not ignoring this point at all....that is exactly what i meant when i said in my post

I believe that once step 3 is taken by muslims and hamas hostile actions are being condemned by muslims, israel will be under more pressure.* it will strengthen moderate political forces in israel, weaken zionist regime and there will be far more international pressure on isarel to open up gaza. they always use hamas as an excuse***"

now if we believe that every Israeli politician, every Israeli party and every isareli citizen is a zionist who wants to kill/subdue ordinary Palestinian citizens then obvious i cannot debate with that logic...it may be a valid logic but i dont believe in it.

I believe that while israel is absolutely an unjust state, it is now a democratically functioning state in the middle east with a thriving economy with millions of normal jews families who want to live in peace (just like you and I). Normal sense would suggest that they have no interest in living under hamas rockets threat. There are tons of consulting reports that show that if gaza becomes normal, israel economy will thrive much more faster as a lot more international investment will flow in.

Not everyone in israel is a zionist/fundamentalist and this is a very important point. Now if hamas is out of the picture , middle line political parties in israel will definitely win elections..zionist will not.

Only 2 parties have benefit in violence...Hamas and Zionists. They will thrive on it. And that is cornerstone of my thesis that if hamas is only bringing agony for its people, why cant we muslims start thinking out of the box and take out hamas and in the mean process weaken Zionists as well.

teggy · July 13, 2014, 10:24pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

I am not ignoring this point at all....that is exactly what i meant when i said in my post

I believe that once step 3 is taken by muslims and hamas hostile actions are being condemned by muslims, israel will be under more pressure.* it will strengthen moderate political forces in israel, weaken zionist regime and there will be far more international pressure on isarel to open up gaza. they always use hamas as an excuse***"

now if we believe that every Israeli politician, every Israeli party and every isareli citizen is a zionist who wants to kill/subdue ordinary Palestinian citizens then obvious i cannot debate with that logic...it may be a valid logic but i dont believe in it.

I believe that while israel is absolutely an unjust state, it is now a democratically functioning state in the middle east with a thriving economy with millions of normal jews families who want to live in peace (just like you and I). Normal sense would suggest that they have no interest in living under hamas rockets threat. There are tons of consulting reports that show that if gaza becomes normal, israel economy will thrive much more faster as a lot more international investment will flow in.

Not everyone in israel is a zionist/fundamentalist and this is a very important point. Now if hamas is out of the picture , middle line political parties in israel will definitely win elections..zionist will not.

Only 2 parties have benefit in violence...Hamas and Zionists. They will thrive on it. And that is cornerstone of my thesis that if hamas is only bringing agony for its people, why cant we muslims start thinking out of the box and take out hamas and in the mean process weaken Zionists as well.

The crux of the problem that others are hinting at is the duplicity of "demands" from the Developed World. It was first demanded that Palestine hold legitimate elections and their representatives would be the faces of population that Israel and others would talk to, and build on to resolve the issue. Then Hamas won the elections, but what ensued after that? Those election results were not desireable.

The issue is not of an entity, the issue is of duplicity and forked tongued demands, and then going back on it. If Hamas is removed, and a more militant faction wins the same elections from the same people, what then? This can carry on forever, because the message that is basically being sent is "Not your democracy, but the one we desire for you". That is completely unjust, and a mockery of the very system of democracy that is used on banners, but what gets dished out to the people is something completely different in the Middle East.

How's the Iraqi democracy working out? How about Afghanistan? The examples are countless.

If the tables were turned, and the developing nations called the winning party of Israel and or "nameyourdevelopednation", a terrorist organization, you would see the very people call it foul. Consistency is needed, otherwise credibility goes down the tube if it hasn't already.

Gujranwalay · July 13, 2014, 11:36pm

Re: Gaza Under attack

Not sure why Pakistanis need to be the thaikaydaars of islam.

apna mulk sambhala nai jata, falasteenio ke pas bhag bhag ke jatay hain, jabkay wohi falasteeni inko apni jooti baraber bhi nai samajhtay

Na ap loagon mein, na apki islami hakumaton mein, aur na inn arabs mein itni himmat hai ke israel ke khilaf kuch ker sakain, is liyay behter ke chup kerke apni zindagi guzaro, inn conflicts mein koi gold medal nai milayga kisi ko. Muft mein terrorism ka label lagayga sirf inko support kernay ka

psyah · July 14, 2014, 12:10am

Re: Gaza Under attack

Agar hum koi bhi nainsaafi se moon pher den to hum insaan hi nahein ... Aap Pakistani ya Falasteeni hone, mein farq laa rahe hein ... Hummare pyarey Rassool (SAW) kabhi uss tarah ki farq na karte.

Support the Haq wherever it is ... It has no borders.

psyah · July 14, 2014, 12:21am

Re: Gaza Under attack

phoenixdesi:

I am not ignoring this point at all....that is exactly what i meant when i said in my post

I believe that once step 3 is taken by muslims and hamas hostile actions are being condemned by muslims, israel will be under more pressure.* it will strengthen moderate political forces in israel, weaken zionist regime and there will be far more international pressure on isarel to open up gaza. they always use hamas as an excuse***"

now if we believe that every Israeli politician, every Israeli party and every isareli citizen is a zionist who wants to kill/subdue ordinary Palestinian citizens then obvious i cannot debate with that logic...it may be a valid logic but i dont believe in it.

I believe that while israel is absolutely an unjust state, it is now a democratically functioning state in the middle east with a thriving economy with millions of normal jews families who want to live in peace (just like you and I). Normal sense would suggest that they have no interest in living under hamas rockets threat. There are tons of consulting reports that show that if gaza becomes normal, israel economy will thrive much more faster as a lot more international investment will flow in.

Not everyone in israel is a zionist/fundamentalist and this is a very important point. Now if hamas is out of the picture , middle line political parties in israel will definitely win elections..zionist will not.

Only 2 parties have benefit in violence...Hamas and Zionists. They will thrive on it. And that is cornerstone of my thesis that if hamas is only bringing agony for its people, why cant we muslims start thinking out of the box and take out hamas and in the mean process weaken Zionists as well.

Israel will never and has never in it's history give over to Palestinians. It does not matter how Zionistic the Israelis are ... So we can look at logic ... But we can look at historical truth ... The purpose of Israel and every people who are injecting it consciously with their own presence, are those who are aligned to establish the Temple of Solomon ... By hook or by crook they have taken it as the reason to re-establish their rule similar to the rule of King David as foretold in their scriptures. That is the potency of their claim, similar to the potency of the claim of the Muslim Zionists who have created their Caliphate in Iraq ... Prophecies do not need to be assisted ... Both of these groups are taking by force that what should not be taken. Hamas is a reaction ... You see I tried to explain you can't take out Hamas ... That is like taking out the remainder of the Palestinians ... Their circumstances have made them in to Hamas.

But I can't fault your logic either ... Remove Palestinian territory, then the moderates come in to power ... Then they will create Palestine? Will they go to the effort of stepping away once they have that territory? No ... Mark my words ... They have plans for a greater Israel ... That goes well beyond its borders in to Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt ...