Gay in Pakistan

Re: Gay in Pakistan

Of course its genetic. Think about it this way. If you are a straight person can you all of a sudden become attracted to the same sex. You can't force yourself to become come gay so saying its a choice is saying that a gay person was once like you 'straight' and then became gay by choice. Its silly. As for sin. OK a person is a christian than converts to Islam. This person misses having bacon and eggs for breakfast. Eventhough she is a good muslim she never has any bacon with her eggs now that she's a muslim, but is it a sin that she liked the tasted and that she wants that bacon? It was be illogical and totally unislamic to think that its a sin for her to want bacon. I mean even straight men lust after women that are not their wives, giving into that lust would be a sin, but averting ones eyes and avoiding those thoughts, that's what Islam tells you to do.

Marrying off gay men to poor unsuspecting straight women is a bigger sin! You destroy two lives that way. I guess sadly this is why so many gay catholic men become priests because there is no way for them to be gay and be christian at the same time and they need to pray to get rid of the sin, its the same thing in Islam, thought Islam has no priesthood a gay person will have to pray and remain celebit. Is the test harder for Gay people? Yes the test is harder for them, just as the test is harder for anyone who was not born a muslim, they need to find the true religion and join it while leaving their families etc. Life is not fair for everyone but that's how it is. Perhaps if you have a harder test, and resist your reward in the hearafter will be greater as well.

so true, couldnt explain that anybetter. ive been trying to explain that but was unsuccesful

jazak Allah khair

Re: Gay in Pakistan

Okay lets say its genetic. Prove it? The entire genome is mapped. There has to be a gay gene there somewhere.

Your link: Kafir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now re-read my post.

Secondly show me in the Quran or hadis where Islam makes a distinction between homosexual acts and homosexual love. You keep saying scientists state that its natural. I have yet to see proof of that.

Re: Gay in Pakistan

i wanna be laugh.........

I don't want to get into the whole religious issue, but I do want to point out that homosexually has been around since dawn of the age & it has been witnessed among animals, too. So, that makes me believe its "genetically natural" b/c it exist in nature. Beside, gay people have been persecuted around the world, & if it was not natural, than why would anyone chosse to be gay? It doesn't make sense to me.

Simply, Islam doesn't allow it

Re: Gay in Pakistan

I hope you find your match. Move to the west?

HEH???? u mean if a guy cant find a girl in pakistan then he turns to a guy?

euwwwwwwwwwww yuck! yuck! yuck!

Homosexuality during Roman and Greek times was done so by choice. It was never considered a natural compulsion, rather an issue of choice. Hey today I will sleep with a man tomorrow a woman. Its all good. The issue of it being witnessed amongst animals I keep hearing this yet one can actually provide a link to a study that documents this. Got a link? I am seriously interested.

As for why would one choose to be gay? Beats me. Its like asking why someone would want a sex change operation.

Re: Gay in Pakistan

Your posts always remind me of an old member we had here. You didnt happen to be a member here a while ago under the nick -Promiscuous Paki-... did you?

Whoever you are, I hope and pray that you find guidance and peace in your life.

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
James Owen in London
for National Geographic News

Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.

Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn’t risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day “the birds and the bees” generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.

But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.

Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York’s Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.

Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.

Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female’s role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)

The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.

“The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing,” says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. “You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males.”

Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.

She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, “Taking something that’s nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success.”

On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. “They’re engaging in the behavior because it’s gratifying sexually or it’s sexually pleasurable,” he says. “They just like it. It doesn’t have any sort of adaptive payoff.”

Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, “If [sex] wasn’t fun, we wouldn’t have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it.”

The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a “make love, not war” primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.

Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.

“There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it,” notes de Waal. Whether it’s a good idea or not, it’s hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.

In the U.S., in particular, the moral debate over this issue rages on. Many on the religious right regard homosexuality as a sin. And only this month, President Bush vowed to continue his bid to ban gay marriages after the Senate blocked the proposal.

Already, cases of animal homosexuality have been cited in successful court cases brought against states like Texas, where gay sex was, until recently, illegal.

Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what’s acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn’t something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans.

Human Homosexuality

So how far can we go in using animals to help us understand human homosexuality? Robin Dunbar is a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, England. “The bottom line is that anything that happens in other primates, and particularly other apes, is likely to have strong evolutionary continuity with what happens in humans,” he said.

Dunbar says the bonobo’s use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, “One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare.”

For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. “They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship,” Dunbar added.

Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, “This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there’s the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in.”

But he adds that homosexuality doesn’t necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight."

He cites sexual gratification, which encourages procreation, as an example. “An organism is designed to maximize its motivational systems,” he adds.

In other words, if the urge to have sex is strong enough it may spill over into nonreproductive sex, as suggested by the actions of the bonobos and macaques. However, as Dunbar admits, there’s a long way to go before the causes of homosexuality in humans are fully understood.

He said, “Nobody’s really investigated this issue thoroughly, because it’s so politically sensitive. It’s fair to say all possibilities are still open.”

Re: Gay in Pakistan

Dear Brother CM.
swear to Allah, i dono m extra dumb or wat but ive read the definition of kufr and ur post like 100 times again and again, but there is nowhere i can see that doing something haram makes u a non muslim. then my curious mind made me open my old quranic notes and use all the quranic searchs and yet i came again and agian to the same conclusion that there are only two things that make u a kaafir/ nonmuslim.

  1. doing Shirk
    2)and not believing in the second part of the Shahadah.
    i would highly recommend u to read Quran and Fiqh but writing on bulletin boards that who is kaafir and who is not, its Allah decides who is Kaafir and its in the Quran, and very clear.

now coming to the links that homosexuality is natural, as i mentioned again and again that there are two groups of biologists, one say its natural and the other says its not but have strong arguments. If i were u, i would go to the library instead of asking online links as they are not reliables, but leme show this link thats a combined study of many famous universities and one of em is Mcmaster in my city.

Homosexuality: A Natural Casue?//Viewzone

u better read all of it, and i highly recommend u that please go to some library and find authentic books instead of looking online links cuz mostly they are not authentic.

may Allah guide all of us, ameen
fi aman Allah

Re: Gay in Pakistan

Honestly, I don't care that much what gay people do. I don't know any. But I really hate the idea of marrying someone who is straight to a gay person. No one should be sacrified because people can't get their act together and deal with their own issues.

*Homosexuality's effect on women *

Yet another reason for all major religions' opposition to homosexuality is homosexuality's negative effect on women.

There appears to be a direct correlation between the prevalence of male homosexuality and the relegation of women to a low societal role.

At the same time, the emancipation of women has been a function of Western civilization, the civilization least tolerant of homosexuality.

In societies where men sought out men for love and sex, women were relegated to society's periphery. Thus, for example, ancient Greece, which elevated homosexuality to an ideal, was characterized, in Sussman's words, by "a misogynistic attitude." Homosexuality in ancient Greece, he writes, "was closely linked to an idealized concept of the man as the focus of intellectual and physical activities."

Classicist Eva Keuls describes Athens at its height of philosophical and artistic greatness as "a society dominated by men who sequester their wives and daughters, denigrate the female role in reproduction, erect monuments to the male genitalia, have sex with the sons of their peers...."

In medieval France, when men stressed male-male love, it "implied a corresponding lack of interest in women. In the Song of Roland, a French mini-epic given its final form in the late eleventh or twelfth century, women appear only as shadowy, marginal figures: 'The deepest signs of affection in the poem, as well as in similar ones, appear in the love of man for man....'"(Greenberg.)

The women of Arab society, wherein male homosexuality has been widespread, have a notably low status. In traditional Chinese culture, as well, the low state of women has been linked to widespread homosexuality.(Arno Karlen,1970).

Reference

Arno Karlen, Sexuality and Homosexuality (New York: Norton, 1971).

are u in pakistan?.. or abroad?.. i swear if u're in abroad and studying in college/university.. dont ever go to boy's changeroom.. ull see plenty of naked men taking shower etc there. You may get into even fights for looking at them lustfully.

Why does a naked woman not excite you?.. im trying my best to understand the whole concept of why one choose to be or is gay. Even by reading your above post , i tried to put myself in your shoes for like 5 seconds but i just cant think about looking at naked man, forget all the other stuff u said.

Do u have any friends who are females?.. do u seriously not like spending time with them more rather than ur guy friends?..

Does your parents know about your sexual orientation?.. what would you do for the rest of your life?.. and finally, are you freakin' serious that u're gay?.. holie.. im just shocked cuz ive never met nor chatted with any gay guy in my life yet.

Have u ever met another gay guy in ur life?.. sorry for asking too many questions..

May Allah show u the right path and make you hate everything that is Haraam, and bring u to the right path. Amin.

Re: Gay in Pakistan

Why does a naked woman not excite you?.. im trying my best to understand the whole concept of why one choose to be or is gay. Even by reading your above post , i tried to put myself in your shoes for like 5 seconds but i just cant think about looking at naked man, forget all the other stuff u said.

this is what I was talking about people! If you are straight (which I am as well) you can't imiagine being gay! You can't MAKE yourself gay. If you are you are, and if you aren't you aren't. The bottom like is what you do with the issues you were born with!

Thankyou EcoShan, I agree with your views.

CM you have no right to call anyone a Kafir without knowledge, I might not be a saint but I believe in the Kalaam-e-Muqaddas (Holy Word) of Allah the Koran.

Nobody is saying gay sex is permissible, we all agree that it is a major sin in Islam...

...We agree that somebody who commits a sin might be liable for punishment in both the worlds (unless Allah Paak out of His infinite Grace has Mercy on them and covers and forgives them, aameen)...

...But comitting a sin (adultery/fornication, gay-sex, alcohol, stealing, murder etc.) other than rejection/polytheism (kufr/shirk) does not make anyone a Kafir (non-Muslim/rejector), it makes them a sinner (faasiq).

There's a difference between sinner (Faasiq) and rejector (Kaafir).

A sin only makes someone a Rejector (Kaafir) if that person believes his sin to be legitimate/justified or permissible under Islam, then it becomes Kuffr (Rejection) because by giving preference to his personal views over Allah's clear order in His Word he has made himself a deity instead of Allah, because Allah's Book is the Criterion (Al-Furqan) not our personal views.

Somebody who sins but accepts it to be worng and believes in Allah, Allah will one day redeem that person of his sin and enter him into Paradise on account of his belief in the oneness (Tauheed) of Allah, the One True Deity (even if he had to be punished first in Hell to cleanse him of that sin he comitted).

I personally take my gay feelings as a test, Islam says this life is a test for everyone, it's harder for gays because straight people have their brides and husbands to look forward to.. but Allah rewards.

Flesh is weak, if we fall may the Lord forgive us out of His infinite Grace & Mercy, Amen.

CM I think you're either really stupid or you belong to some weird sect like Khwarijis or something who consider sins to be the same as disbeleif.

I bet you also consider straight guys who have girlfriends as Kaafirs? Guys who drink alcohol or smoke are also Kaafirs by your standards, right? Those who steal or beat someone up are also Kaafir as well, right? Those who look at non-related females are also Kaafir right?

That makes the vast majority of the Islamic world Kafir, if simply sinning makes someone a Kaafir then there would be no Muslims left.

Or maybe His Lowliness a.k.a CM makes an exception for the sins he committs himself. Hypocrite.

You have no knowledge of Allah's Word and you pass verdicts based on your own personal views instead, you're the one who should be worrying about being Kaafir.

FrozenFire, mate the Munkaraan-e-Nubuwwah have more to worry about than me.

Re: Gay in Pakistan

PS. I do not support new-age sects such as FatihaOrg QueerMuslims etc. who say gay sex is allowed in Islam and have their own gay Mosques and gay-Nikaahs, that is Kuffr.

No offense, but I kind of find it strange when people find comfort in faith when very faith condemns them for being who they're (reminds me of untouchables in India). Also, if the creator condemns people, like you, for being who you're than why did he made you that way? Something doesn't add up.