Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
thats why they were said bye bye to leave the inheritance of IVC?
I dont know whether we said bye bye to them or they said it to us. They are proud of their history and language, and they didnt have to do anything with Urdu. It was an un natural alliance.
Its only Maurya, Pala rule, Moghul and British when Bengal remained united with other parts of the subcontinent.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
I dont know whether we said bye bye to them or they said it to us. They are proud of their history and language, and they didnt have to do anything with Urdu. It was an un natural alliance.
Its only Maurya, Pala rule, Moghul and British when Bengal remained united with other parts of the subcontinent.
meaning thereby two nations theory and inheritance of Indus Vally Civilisation were two different things.
PS: Kolkata (Bengal) is termed as Janam bhoomi of Urdu :)
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Indus Valley Civilization was around Indus river… 
Anyways, the author’s emphasis was where the Indus Valley civilization’s relics have been found and who uses its name.
http://www.narrowgate-rmartin.com/religions_classnotes/images/indus-valley-civilization.jpg
I thought that Urdu was born in UP or areas around Delhi.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
In Pakistan Sindh Province uses the name of “Indus”. :k:
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
the author is probably mistaken on the context that people of Indus Valley were disconnected from people of today’s India as folklore of Sindh still cater the characters from Gujrata, Rajistan, Kutch, etc and these areas have been ruled by the rulers of Sindh during various periods.
Claiming Pakistan’s border to be natural to prove that we were more connected with Iran and middle eastern countries than India does not support two nations theory, as the theory was hugely based on religion to cater people of Bengal.
As far as the relation between Urdu and Bengal is concerned, Bengalis opposed that because it was being imposed on them. Otherwise, Bengalis had great contribution in developing Urdu.
REVIEW: Fort William’s style -DAWN - Books and Authors; January 23, 2005
**
FORT William College was established in Kolkata (Calcutta) by the East India Company in the early 19th century. The objective primarily was to teach the British employees the languages spoken in India. However, the impact of that institution went far beyond its declared limited goal. On the one hand, the scholars working on its staff, both British and Indian, helped evolve a better and modern style of writing in Urdu and also in compiling the rules of its grammar. On the other hand, a deliberate attempt was made to divide the Indians by promoting Hindi with the Devnagri script, as a rival to Urdu which was labeled as the language of the Muslims.**
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
^ Rajhastan, Gujarat and Indian Punjab are all connected to Pakistani Punjab, Seraiki Areas and Sindh. Indus valley civilization was present in Pakistanis areas and three bordering states of India (more so in Pakistan).
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
the writer claims that IVC was separated from Indian areas by Gurdaspur-Kathiawar Salient. Can you explain this claim in above map? As far as I remember this Gurdaspur also played vital role in Kashmir issue.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Pakistan was made in the name of Islam, so as to connect Balochistan and Bengal. It was not made up on the basis of IVC, but the fact cannot be negated that IVC was mainly concentrated in today's Pakistan.
As far as the borders of Pakistan (and even India) have kept on changing through out the history. Even the current borders of Pakistan are unnatural, Balochistan and KP have more to do with Afghanistan as compared to Pakistan. Punjab and Sindh have more to do Indian Punjab, Gujarat and Rajhastan. The areas forming Pakistan have always remained on the fringes of mainstream Indian subcontinent, hence always had some sort of influence from the Western borders as well.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
the writer claims that IVC was separated from Indian areas by Gurdaspur-Kathiawar Salient. Can you explain this claim in above map? As far as I remember this Gurdaspur also played vital role in Kashmir issue.
Gurdaspur is the tip of Punjab beneath Jammu. Most of IVC is in Pakistan, we cannot say all of it is in Pakistan.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
For correct map representation of Indus Valley Civilization spread, as this map presents a more accurate view.
The decline of Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) started in 1900 BC there were no longer references to Melluha (People of Indus Valley Civilization) in Mesopotamian writings, and no IVC seals are found in Mesopotamia with whom the Melluha conducted a bustling trade, after that date. Even after the fading out of IVC, its people continued to live in places like Harappa and Mohenjodaro long after that.
Some of the aspects that Pakistan can still trace their legacy to are the commerce routes they developed. Traders from the highlands of Pakistan’s Baluchistan and northern Afghanistan brought in copper, tin and lapis lazuli. The Makran and southern coasts of Pakistan provided decorative shells. Timber was floated down the rivers from the Himalayas and gold from southern Central Asia. Skilled IVC artisans and specialized craftsmen turned such raw materials into useful and beautiful products for regional distribution and—as finds elsewhere have shown—for export by land and sea to Mesopotamia, Persia and Central Asia.
The southern parts of IVC controlled the sea trade, just as Karachi does today. Ships from Meluhha [the Mesopotamian name for the land and people of IVC] regularly sailed from ports near modern-day Karachi, Pakistan for the ports of Babylon. And they evidently made stops all along the way as the IVC seals have been found in Oman, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain etc as well.
The modern city of Peshawar lies on what is thought to have been one of the IVC’s main overland trade routes. That route is now a major highway that constitutes the eastern approach to the Khyber Pass and links the northwestern Indus Plain to the highlands of Afghanistan and Central Asia. An old branch of the route runs from Peshawar south into rugged tribal territory, through the modern towns of Pakistan’s Kohat and Bannu and the foothills of the Pakistan’s Sulaiman Mountains, and on down across the Gomal Plain to the early IVC site of Rehman Dheri, where an important excavation was conducted from 1976 to 1980.
Vedic Hindu culture was distinctly different than the culture of the Indus Valley Civilization, who followed monotheism.
The IVC was mostly restricted to the Indus Valley and its adjoining planes—however at the tail end of the civilization some of it dispersed into areas beyond the IVC.
The 3 Major IVC cities Mehrgarh, Harappa and Mohenjodaro are all located in Pakistan. One in Balochistan, one in Punjab and the last one in Sindh and there have been numerous linked sites that have been discovered. Recently, grave sites as old as 3000 year old were discovered near Swat as well.
Current day India didn’t exist during IVC, and their religion had nothing to do with IVC, and major IVC settlements are not even located in India. However, Indians still refer to India as the “Home of Indus Valley Civilization” which is indeed surprising and a wrong representation.
Indus Valley Civilization’s legacy is linked to Pakistan and it cannot be denied, because various peoples after their decline ruled or invaded the area.
Therefore, we the people of Pakistan rightly claim ourselves to be the scions of and holders of Indus Valley Civilization.
Let me also highlight the importance of Gurdaspur – Kathiawar salient. The line drawn through Gurdaspur – Kathiawar and extended to the Arabian Sea generally defines a prominent watershed that separated the Indus Valley, it westerly flowing tributaries and the adjoining planes and the Ganges valley with its easterly flowing tributaries and its adjoining planes.
This is pronounced by the fact that after the last river that flows in to Pakistan from India, because of this watershed, no other river flows north east to south west which could links these two river valleys. And thus this salient and watershed formed the natural boundary between these two river valleys.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
you are saying that IVC was a monotheistic civilisation which started declined around 1900 BC. What are the reasons behind this conclusion?
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
you are saying that IVC was a monotheistic civilisation which started declined around 1900 BC. What are the reasons behind this conclusion?
A variety of reasons have been given by many as probable causes of decline of Indus Valley Civilization which include changing course of river, drought,floods, aryan invasion, decease, earthquakes and other natural calamities etc etc. But none have been proven beyond any reasonable doubt as the people continued living in those cities and towns even after the civilization faded out.
I would tend to agree with the author of this write up where he opines and with reason that the priests, elite and many people who were the governing elite left for Mesopotamia after the news of Hazrat Ibrahim's pronouncements regarding the wahdaniyat reached the people of Indus Valley. These people being monotheists, left for Mesopotamia and most probably to the city of Ur, where IVC seals and writings have also been found in large numbers.
Everybody couldn't or didn't go with those who left for Mesopotamia and continued living thereafter in the same cities and towns. However, as the governing establishment left, the cities became less and less organized andhabitable and the people moved out to areas where they could have a better life than continue living in unmanageable cities. Remember, the population of Harappa and Mohenjodaro has been cited to be between 30 to 50 thousand people and the era was around 2000 - 1900 BC.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
A variety of reasons have been given by many as probable causes of decline of Indus Valley Civilization which include changing course of river, drought,floods, aryan invasion, decease, earthquakes and other natural calamities etc etc. But none have been proven beyond any reasonable doubt as the people continued living in those cities and towns even after the civilization faded out.
I would tend to agree with the author of this write up where he opines and with reason that the priests, elite and many people who were the governing elite left for Mesopotamia after the news of Hazrat Ibrahim's pronouncements regarding the wahdaniyat reached the people of Indus Valley. These people being monotheists, left for Mesopotamia and most probably to the city of Ur, where IVC seals and writings have also been found in large numbers.
Everybody couldn't or didn't go with those who left for Mesopotamia and continued living thereafter in the same cities and towns. However, as the governing establishment left, the cities became less and less organized andhabitable and the people moved out to areas where they could have a better life than continue living in unmanageable cities. Remember, the population of Harappa and Mohenjodaro has been cited to be between 30 to 50 thousand people and the era was around 2000 - 1900 BC.
Its still not clear how we conclude about the monotheistic religion of IVC? people might have migrated to the areas where monotheistic religions flourished, but what are the archeological evidence of IVC being monotheistic?
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
@ muqawwee 123
As quoted from the author's write up:
The unified system of governance and
integrated and fused economic system ,
peaceful nature of living and lack of
identifiable war fighting and war material ,
the remarkably similar construction and
construction methodology and unified
measuring system , all point towards a
unitary and inclusive way of life . In addition
to this , the absence of religious places and
temples , lack of clearly identifiable deities
and other polytheist artifacts are but some
of the examples that make Indus Valley
Civilization one of the few known
civilizations of that era to have practiced
monotheism . This also is reflective of the
fact that monotheism acted as a unifying,
integrated and a cohesive societal influence
impacting the people of Indus Valley
Civilization .
The linkages and influence , people of this
civilization had with Sumer ( Mesopotamia )
are fairly well pronounced . Surprisingly
though , such influences are also more
pronounced by the absence of
Mesopotamian linkages with Indus Valley .
This is reflective of their maturity and also
highlights their resolve in maintaining
societal independence against foreign
influences , wherein the practice of
monotheism was upheld against polytheism
practiced in the adjoining contemporary
civilizations, despite the regular contacts
and interactions even through enhanced
trade linkages .
This also brings out the question as to why
these people practiced monotheism when the
other contemporary civilizations practiced
polytheism. One may find the answer within
the known historical aspects related to the
spread of early monotheism . The time
period of its emergence , its precursor , the
peak and the decline of Indus Valley
Civilization clearly relates it to the probable
known historical influence of Prophets of
that era , who spread monotheism . The
possibility that there may have been a
Prophet present amongst them, whose
influence chartered the course of this
remarkable civilization , can not be thus
completely ruled out.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
The absence of temples could also mean atheism . Who are those notable historians rooting for monotheism in IVC? You seem to be well versed in half truths about the IVC. you are backing something without substantial historical or academic evidence. You are not Lethal kamikaze’s alter ego are U? He was promoting something similar in the religion subforum a few months back. Only he had Mesopotamians coming to settle and establish IVC or some such thing. Same song different tune. Objects found tend to indicate some form of religious beliefs. There has been evidence that the people of the Indus Valley Civilization believed in some form of animal and nature worship. The figures of deities on the seals indicates that they worshipped gods and
http://library.thinkquest.org/C006203/media/images/priest_king_indus.jpg
goddesses in the human form. No major sculpture survives but for a bust thought to be of a major priest and the stunning bronze dancing girl. The Divine Mother appears to have been an important goddess, due to the countless terra-cotta statues of her that were found. It follows a school of thought that would become prevalent later as well, of the female energy being regarded as the source of all creation. What is most interesting is the
http://library.thinkquest.org/C006203/media/images/mother_goddess_indus_valley.jpg
existence of a male god which has been identified as a proto-type of an important God of the religion of Hinduism, lord Shiv. The fact that the same God is still worshipped today, and has been for the last five thousand years is one of the remarkable features of Indian culture. Even evidence of the Bhakti cult (loving devotion to a personal God) has been found at Indus Valley Civilization sites, and the Bhakti cult also has a large following even today. It can therefore be concluded that there is a close relationship between the beliefs of the Indus Valley Civilization and that of modern Hinduism. Indus Valley Civilization - Society
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
I think there are also Buddhist stupas found in IVC, but they dates back to 2nd century BC and the priest king may also not be that old as 1900 BC. Only further excavations can answer about the religion of IVC IMO
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
The most interesting thing in all this is that JM Kenoyer also states that Vedic culture evolved after 1500 BC and he also says that the IVC started declining after 1900 BC. How can he relate the artifacts of an earlier era with what evolved hundreds or even thousands of years later. You can not say that because Vedic Hindus followed polytheism in 1000 BC, the people of IVC would have followed the 3000 years earlier - such a thinking amounts to a misnomer and is manipulative. His speculations have been countered effectively by Dr. Dani, who excavated at Mohenjodaro and have clearly stated that IVC is a Pakistani civilization and have also qualified that its linkages with Vedic culture evolved either during its fading moments or after the IVC faded out.
Secondly, if you have to counter the monotheism which was followed by the people of IVC, by suggesting atheism, you have to relate it to atheism followed by a civilization or a people of that era. Both the contemporary civilizations of that time followed polytheism as compared to IVC which followed monotheism and there was no concept of atheism known at that time and era. Both monotheism and polytheism were known practices of that era.
All what you are hinting at is mere speculation and is related to a much later practice, which can not be juxtaposed on preceding time frame. Depiction of a cow or a bull which was later revered for some reason in a a later formulation of a mythological story does not show the it was also true for the earlier times. Rig Veda, for example extensively talks about horse and its sacrificial context - there was no horse seal ever discovered from IVC sites of that era.
What Indians have done is that they have resorted to selective patching up, which however has been proved wrong time and time again.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
I think there are also Buddhist stupas found in IVC, but they dates back to 2nd century BC and the priest king may also not be that old as 1900 BC. Only further excavations can answer about the religion of IVC IMO
The sculpture have been called by various people as a noble person, a priest, a ranking official, a rich person, a king etc etc etc. Nowhere have I read that he was decisively declared as a priest king following Vedic culture.
Has anybody seen the age old practice of wearing an Ihram during the Hajj where the upper shoulder is kept bare. The design of the upper that the sculpture is shown wearing is something almost similar to what a Sindhi chadar is worn even now by the male population of Sindh, Pakistan.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
The sculpture have been called by various people as a noble person, a priest, a ranking official, a rich person, a king etc etc etc. Nowhere have I read that he was decisively declared as a priest king following Vedic culture.
Has anybody seen the age old practice of wearing an Ihram during the Hajj where the upper shoulder is kept bare. The design of the upper that the sculpture is shown wearing is something almost similar to what a Sindhi chadar is worn even now by the male population of Sindh, Pakistan.
The way the priest / king wore Ajrak and the way Hajis wear Ihram is not much different from the way Lamas and other religious heads of the area dressed.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
The way the priest / king wore Ajrak and the way Hajis wear Ihram is not much different from the way Lamas and other religious heads of the area dressed.
Yes - agreed. Buddhism is also monotheistic religion.