Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
tinu. Hope to learn something new from you.
PS: Interesting thread. let me go through it.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Thank you Sir. Contrarily however, it is me who will learn from the members here. 
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Tinu what relationship do you aee between Indus Valley civilisations religion, Buddhism and Hinduism?
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Aap kehtay hain tou maan laitay hain. 
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Tinu what relationship do you aee between Indus Valley civilisations religion, Buddhism and Hinduism?
Most scholars agree that the people of Indus Valley Civilization (3350 - 1300 BC) were monotheists, however the evidence in this regard is based on scholarly historical and analytical assessment. Archeologically, the religion they followed has not been identified and neither the language they spoke has been deciphered as yet.
The emergence of Vedic Hindu culture has been identified either after 1700 or 1500 BC. This was the time when Induc valley civilization was in decline. Most scholars believe that traces of this civilization diminished after 1300 BC. Therefore, the linkages between Vedic Hindu culture with Indus Valley civilization only emerge when either this civilization was under decline or had declined. At the time of when this civilization was at its peak, there was no link with Vedic Hindu Culture as this culture emerged much much later. Though the initial Vedic Hindu scriptures do talk about polytheism, but as the author of this piece also states that later it was corrupted to polytheism.
Conventionally accepted dates concerning the life of Buddha are identified between 566-486 B.C. Buddhism therefore had no linkages with Indus Valley Civilization.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Most scholars do not agree with anything. There is no substantial evidence to prove that the people of the Indus valley were monotheists. Do you have any proof? Have they translated texts or tablets singing praises of one God? No. The lack of temples could imply atheism also. The religion of the Indus valley civilization is an predecessor to the Dharmic religions…Some Indus valley seals show swastikas, which are found in other religions worldwide, especially in Indian religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. The earliest evidence for elements of Hinduism are alleged to have been present before and during the early Harappan period.[SUP][63]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Phallic symbols interpreted as the much later Hindu Shiva lingam have been found in the Harappan remains.[SUP][64]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][65]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
](File:IndusValleySeals swastikas.JPG - Wikipedia) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.21wmf12/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png
Swastika Seals from the Indus Valley Civilization preserved at the British Museum
Many Indus valley seals show animals. One motif shows a horned figure seated in a posture reminiscent of the Lotus position and surrounded by animals was named by early excavators Pashupati (lord of cattle), an epithet of the later Hindu gods Shiva and Rudra.[SUP][66]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][67]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][68]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] According to Iravatham Mahadevan symbols 47 and 48 of his Indus script glossary The Indus Script: Texts, Concordance and Tables (1977), representing seated human-like figures, could describe Hindu deity Murugan.[SUP][69]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
In view of the large number of figurines found in the Indus valley, some scholars believe that the Harappan people worshipped a Mother goddess symbolizing fertility, a common practice among rural Hindus even today.[SUP][70]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] However, this view has been disputed by S. Clark who sees it as an inadequate explanation of the function and construction of many of the figurines.[SUP][71]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
There are no religious buildings or evidence of elaborate burials. If there were temples, they have not been identified.[SUP][72]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] However, House - 1 in HR-A area in Mohenjadaro’s Lower Town has been identified as a possible temple.[SUP][73]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
In the earlier phases of their culture, the Harappans buried their dead; however, later, especially in the Cemetery H culture of the late Harrapan period, they also cremated their dead and buried the ashes in burial urns.
It is possible that a temple exists to the East of the great bath, but the site has not been excavated. There is a Buddhist reliquary mound on the site and permission has not been granted to move it.[SUP][74]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Until there is sufficient evidence, speculation about the religion of the IVC is largely based on a retrospective view from a much later Hindu perspective.[SUP][46]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
Ram Prasad Chanda, who supervised Indus Valley Civilisation excavations, states[SUP][75]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] that, “Not only the seated deities on some of the Indus seals are in Yoga posture and bear witness to the prevalence of Yoga in the Indus Valley Civilisation in that remote age, the standing deities on the seals also show Kayotsarga (a standing or sitting posture of meditation) position. The Kayotsarga posture is peculiarly Jain. It is a posture not of sitting but of standing. In the Adi Purana Book XV III, the Kayotsarga posture is described in connection with the penance of Rsabha, also known as Vrsabha.”[SUP][76]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
Christopher Key Chappel also notes some other possible links with Jainism.[SUP][77]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Seal 420, unearthed at Mohenjodaro portrays a person with 3 or possibly 4 faces. Jain iconography frequently depicts its Tirthankaras with four faces, symbolizing their presence in all four directions. This four-faced attribute is also true of many Hindu gods, important among them being Brahma, the chief creator deity.[SUP][78]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] In addition, Depictions of a bull appear repeatedly in the artifacts of the Indus Valley. Lannoy, Thomas McEvilley and Padmanabh Jaini have all suggested that the abundant use of the bull image in the Indus Valley civilization indicates a link with Rsabha, whose companion animal is the bull. This seal can be interpreted in many ways, and authors such as Christopher Key Chappel and Richard Lannoy support the Jain interpretation.[SUP][77]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
Source: Wikipedia
Ha ! Corrupted to Polytheism? Should read the other way round. The world was polytheistic before it was corrupted to Monotheism which is in effect in many parts of the world. Sorry dearie, Polytheism was first and I am starting to believe they were right. You can refute this in the Religion sub forum 
Recent archaeological excavations indicate that the decline of Harappa drove people eastward. After 1900 BCE, the number of sites in India increased from 218 to 853. Excavations in the Gangetic plain show that urban settlement began around 1200 BCE, only a few centuries after the decline of Harappa and much earlier than previously expected.[SUP][80]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] Archaeologists have emphasized that, just as in most areas of the world, there was a continuous series of cultural developments. These link “the so-called two major phases of urbanization in South Asia”.[SUP][82]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
A possible natural reason for the IVC’s decline is connected with climate change that is also signalled for the neighbouring areas of the Middle East: The Indus valley climate grew significantly cooler and drier from about 1800 BCE, linked to a general weakening of the monsoon at that time. Alternatively, a crucial factor may have been the disappearance of substantial portions of the Ghaggar Hakra river system. A tectonic event may have diverted the system’s sources toward the Ganges Plain, though there is complete uncertainty about the date of this event, as most settlements inside Ghaggar-Hakra river beds have not yet been dated. The actual reason for decline might be any combination of these factors. New geological research is now being conducted by a group led by Peter Clift, from the University of Aberdeen, to investigate how the courses of rivers have changed in this region since 8000 years ago, to test whether climate or river reorganizations are responsible for the decline of the Harappan. A 2004 paper indicated that the isotopes of the Ghaggar-Hakra system do not come from the Himalayan glaciers, and were rain-fed instead, contradicting a Harappan time mighty “Sarasvati” river.[SUP][83]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
A research team led by the geologist Liviu Giosan of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution also concluded that climate change in form of the easterward migration of the monsoons led to the decline of the IVC.[SUP][84]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] The team’s findings were published in PNAS in May 2012.[SUP][85]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP][SUP][86]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP] According to their theory, the slow eastward migration of the monsoons across Asia initially allowed the civilization to develop. The monsoon-supported farming led to large agricultural surpluses, which in turn supported the development of cities. The IVC residents did not develop irrigation capabilities, relying mainly on the seasonal monsoons. As the monsoons kept shifting eastward, the water supply for the agricultural activities dried up. The residents then migrated towards the Ganges basin in the east, where they established smaller villages and isolated farms. The small surplus produced in these small communities did not allow development of trade, and the cities died out.[SUP][87]](Indus Valley Civilisation - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
In the aftermath of the Indus Civilization’s collapse, regional cultures emerged, to varying degrees showing the influence of the Indus Civilization. In the formerly great city of Harappa, burials have been found that correspond to a regional culture called the Cemetery H culture. At the same time, the Ochre Coloured Pottery culture expanded from Rajasthan into the Gangetic Plain. The Cemetery H culture has the earliest evidence for cremation; a practice dominant in Hinduism today.
The religion and practice of the IVC was the parent of Vedic Hinduism and Shramana religion which grew side by side and influenced each other. Buddhism and Jainism were reforms of the existing Shramana religion. Among the Astika schools of Hinduism, Vedanta, Samkhya, and Yoga are early and very important philosophies that have influenced and been influenced by the Sramana philosophy, with their origins in the Indus Valley period of about 3000-2000 BCE.
The Sramana movement later received a boost during the times of Mahavira and Buddha when Vedic ritualism had become the dominant tradition in certain parts of India. Śramaṇas adopted a path alternate to the Vedic rituals to achieve liberation, while renouncing household life. They typically engage in three types of activities: austerities, meditation, and associated theories (or views). As spiritual authorities, śramaṇa were at variance with traditional Brahmin authority. However some Brahmins joined the Sramana movement, such as Cānakya and Śāriputra](Śāriputra - Wikipedia)[SUP][3]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana#endnote_Gethin_10)[/SUP]. Similarly, a group of eleven Brahmins accepted Jainism of Mahavira, and become his chief disciples or Ganadharas.[SUP][25]](Śramaṇa - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
With regard to Buddhism, Randall Collins opined that Buddhism was more a reform movement within the educated religious classes, composed mostly of Brahmins, than a rival movement from outside these classes, with the largest number of monks in the early movement derived from Brahmin origin, and virtually all the monks were recruited from the two upper classes of society[SUP][26]](Śramaṇa - Wikipedia)[/SUP]
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
What is important here is to know why archaeologists do archaeology the way they do? The reason is the archaeologists like historians belong to their age and society. Major social and political movements in the country and the world influence them too.
It is for this reason Indian archaeologists revealed colonial/neo-colonial, communal nationalist persuasions ever since the beginning of the 20th century. Those influenced by the progressive nationalist perspective viewed Indian nation and culture as pluralistic and composite evolving historically. But the adherents of the ideology of Hindutva believed that India is a Hindu nation and has Hindu culture in continuity from Vedic Aryans.
The mosaic of cultures of the past evolving into composite Indian culture through the process of history was seen by them not as it really was but what they wanted to see in it. They are selective and lack holistic and relative view while collecting or analyzing the data. They even do not hesitate from distorting, manipulating or even forging the mute archaeological evidence to suit their ideology and opportunistic interests. This is what was attempted by some pseudo archaeologists in Indian Archaeology in the recent past.
This is clearly identified by the fact that Indian Vedic Hindu culture emanated much after the decline of Indus Valley Civilization had begun or it had actually faded out. Secondly, the reasons of it being monotheistic have been mentioned by the author and have been proved by the absence of any alter, any temple, any deity or any other religious artifact.
Stating that some of the mentions on the seals relate to Vedic Hindu culture which has been proven to be non existent at that time and emerged much later is really stretching it a bit too far. The people of Indus Valley Civilization buried their dead whereas Hindus cremate their dead. They ate meat whereas Hindus do not eat any meat. The Vedic Hindu scriptures talk only about rural culture, whereas IVC is a purely urban culture. These are too many differences between the two to accept this as an extension of Hindu culture particularly when the Hindu culture did not even exist at that time.
And most of all, what is being compared is written in a mythology and not the reality. Mythology is based on mere myths and does not conform to the ground reality. The ground realities as they existed were part of the archeological facts and known history which amply highlight that IVC was never an Indian Civilization but is a heritage of the people of Pakistan.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Because they acted like invaders, there are Pashtun Hindus as well, one can find Pashtoon Hindus and Pashtoon Sikhs refugees in Lajpat Nagar market in delhi :)
None of them were korean Mata Kauslaya was from South Mata Sumitra was from Kashi Mata Kaikey was from western India, possibly modern day Pakistan :)
this makes Ramayan a pakistani literature too :D
So maid Manthra must be from Pakistan too, aaj bahot se dhundhle sawaalo ka jawab mil raha hai.;):D
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
So maid Manthra must be from Pakistan too, aaj bahot se dhundhle sawaalo ka jawab mil raha hai.;):D
And that makes Ramjee's Vanvaas, a pakistani conspiracy :D
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
So maid Manthra must be from Pakistan too, aaj bahot se dhundhle sawaalo ka jawab mil raha hai.;):D
Rig Veda was written in the country of Meluhha, which is now called Pakistan. And when it was written there was no India. The Republic of India gained independence from the British India. Before that there was Muslim India - what was there before - no India.
Lets hope that Indians learn and attempt to find out what their identity was, instead of clinging on to a Pakistani identity and believing it to be their own. :)
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
And that makes Ramjee's Vanvaas, a pakistani conspiracy :D
Nahin bhei ye agni pariksha aapko khud hi karni parray gi. Pakistaniyon ka bhala is vanvas se kya kaam.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
India did not even exist at that time and yes the name Pakistan did not exist at that time. But it was known as Meluhha and there is hardly any difference between the Indus valley map and Pakistan's map and therefore the people of Meluhha re-enacted themselves as Pakistan.
We, the people of Pakistan are the heirs of and scions of Indus valley Civilization and not India. :)
i think you are stuck with half-truths.
the academics who believe meluhha referred to the indus valley people also believe the people of this civilization were dravidians who moved further away from this region post-climate change etc.. much of the evidence for the meluhha indus valley theory is based out of dravidian language word-matching with loanwords in the sumerian language - the reasoning being that these words were used to refer to non-native items brought in by rich trade with meluhha. the evidence isn't all that convincing, but even if it were true, that would mean the scions of indus valley pretty much are the south indians and eastern and central indian tribals like the gonds and bheels. the vast majority of sindhis and punjabis etc have nothing to do with dravidians and are a continuum of the north indian ethnicity of the modern indo-gangetic plains.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
i think you are stuck with half-truths.
the academics who believe meluhha referred to the indus valley people also believe the people of this civilization were dravidians who moved further away from this region post-climate change etc.. much of the evidence for the meluhha indus valley theory is based out of dravidian language word-matching with loanwords in the sumerian language - the reasoning being that these words were used to refer to non-native items brought in by rich trade with meluhha. the evidence isn't all that convincing, but even if it were true, that would mean the scions of indus valley pretty much are the south indians and eastern and central indian tribals like the gonds and bheels. the vast majority of sindhis and punjabis etc have nothing to do with dravidians and are a continuum of the north indian ethnicity of the modern indo-gangetic plains.
The Dravidian theory in Indus Valley Civilization basically emerge from the Aryan Invasion Theory which has been trashed by almost all of Indian scholars and many of Western ones as well. Therefore, there is no truth in it any longer. Also, please understand that the languages do not have to travel with the people for these to be identical. In any case, the language of the Meluhha has not even been deciphered so far for any one to know if it were Dravidian or any other.
The most interesting thing which the author of this piece has also brought about is the fact that while there are artifacts present in Sumer (Mesopotamia), there are no Sumerian artifacts excavated from any of the IVC sites. These linkages were one sided and the history and the archeological evidence proves it.
However, at the same time, it is also proved that the genetic format of majority of people from Pakistan and therefore Meluhha is different than that of the the Indian genetic format. The Pakistani genetic origin is more linked to people from Iran, Turkey, Arab and Central Asia and only limited genetic link with India exists. Interestingly also, the Ancestral North Indians and the Ancestral South Indians are also genetically different.
There was no or may be a limited link with central and south Indians with the people of Indus Valley Civilization. The links if at all were established much much later.
What you have stated have no historical and proven facts in support of such a theory.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
your whole claim relies on one flimsy assumption - the people the sumerians called the meluhha are the people of the indus valley.
now, this assumption's validity relies 100% on the use of dravidian language correlation with loan words in sumerian, to refer to things like sesame seed. which are foreign to sumeria, and hence the words are non-native.
after all this, if you claim no, the indus valley wasn't dravidian, it removes your first assumption - those that are refered to as the meluhha are the people of the indus.
it is also proved that the genetic format of majority of people from Pakistan and therefore Meluhha is different than that of the the Indian genetic format. The Pakistani genetic origin is more linked to people from Iran, Turkey, Arab and Central Asia and only limited genetic link with India exists.
and this is your agenda. say this to any anthropologist familiar with the peopling of the indian subcontinent and you will be laughed at.
the population in the indo-gangetic plains had already stabilized genetically, turkey had huge population changes afterwards. you are trying to say a 10 yr old kid is the father of a 60 yr old.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
**The Pakistani genetic origin is more linked to people from Iran, Turkey, Arab and Central Asia and only limited genetic link with India exists. **Interestingly also, the Ancestral North Indians and the Ancestral South Indians are also genetically different.
There was no or may be a limited link with central and south Indians with the people of Indus Valley Civilization. The links if at all were established much much later.
so how long is the link between Indus Vally people and people from Arab, Iran, Turkey, etc. Why Indus Valley people couldn't have links with Indian when they had common boundaries?
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
your whole claim relies on one flimsy assumption - the people the sumerians called the meluhha are the people of the indus valley.
now, this assumption's validity relies 100% on the use of dravidian language correlation with loan words in sumerian, to refer to things like sesame seed. which are foreign to sumeria, and hence the words are non-native.
after all this, if you claim no, the indus valley wasn't dravidian, it removes your first assumption - those that are refered to as the meluhha are the people of the indus.
and this is your agenda. say this to any anthropologist familiar with the peopling of the indian subcontinent and you will be laughed at.
the population in the indo-gangetic plains had already stabilized genetically, turkey had huge population changes afterwards. you are trying to say a 10 yr old kid is the father of a 60 yr old.
Oh come one - what crap are you referring to - the language of people of Indus Valley Civilization has not been deciphered as yet to comment whether it had any link with Dravidian or any other language for that matter.
The genetic studies that I refer to have not been conducted by me. These have been conducted by experts and they have written their findings and conclusions and these are available on the internet for you to read and find out the reality as it exists. I do not know or do not have the privilege to post graphics, otherwise I would have posted a genetic map of people of Indian and Pakistan for you to see and gauge for yourself.
Please study the genetic format of India and Pakistan first to comment any further. You are merely embarrassing yourself by posting shallow and uninformed responses.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
so how long is the link between Indus Vally people and people from Arab, Iran, Turkey, etc. Why Indus Valley people couldn't have links with Indian when they had common boundaries?
There were no pronounced linkages between the people of Indus Valley Civilization and the people of Ganges Valley and its adjoining planes. These two regions were geographically separated for thousands of years through Gurdaspur-Kathiawar salient which also acted as a watershed. Aitzaz Ahsan has also written about this salient in his book as well.
Robert Kaplan, the famous American geopolitical and geography expert also states about this unequivocally in his writings. He also states that these two regions were separated by the same salient and that the Indus Valley Civilization always remained a separate entity from the Ganges Valley for thousands of years. He also states that Pakistan is not an artificial creation and is the heir of Indus Valley Civilization and not India. There were only three occasions when IVC and Ganges valley were ruled as one political unit; during the Mauryan, Muslim and British era, and that is all.
All the links of IVC people were with the people of the west and not with the east, which came about when Muslims captured and created India.
These are facts supported by archeology, history, geology and genetics. That is why we the people of Pakistan are the true heirs of and scions of Indus Valley Civilization and not Indians and we also hold the cradle of this civilization. :)
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
There were no pronounced linkages between the people of Indus Valley Civilization and the people of Ganges Valley and its adjoining planes. These two regions were geographically separated for thousands of years through Gurdaspur-Kathiawar salient which also acted as a watershed. Aitzaz Ahsan has also written about this salient in his book as well.
Robert Kaplan, the famous American geopolitical and geography expert also states about this unequivocally in his writings. He also states that these two regions were separated by the same salient and that the Indus Valley Civilization always remained a separate entity from the Ganges Valley for thousands of years. He also states that Pakistan is not an artificial creation and is the heir of Indus Valley Civilization and not India. There were only three occasions when IVC and Ganges valley were ruled as one political unit; during the Mauryan, Muslim and British era, and that is all.
All the links of IVC people were with the people of the west and not with the east, which came about when Muslims captured and created India.
These are facts supported by archeology, history, geology and genetics. That is why we the people of Pakistan are the true heirs of and scions of Indus Valley Civilization and not Indians and we also hold the cradle of this civilization. :)
If we consider that boundaries of Pakistan were not artificial creation and it all coincide with two nations theory, do the heirs included people of East Pakistan (BenglaDesh)?
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
If we consider that boundaries of Pakistan were not artificial creation and it all coincide with two nations theory, do the heirs included people of East Pakistan (BenglaDesh)?
Bangalis are different people.
Re: From Meluhha To Pakistan: The Embodiment Of A Civilization
Bangalis are different people.
thats why they were said bye bye to leave the inheritance of IVC?