From Ahmadiyyat to Islam

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by insha_ji: *
So what islam i should follow please guide me. Shia islam, Sunni Islam, Brehlvi Islam, diobandi Islam, wahabi Islam. Dont matter what islam i follow im still going to be a kafir. If i become shia for sunni im kafir if i become sunni for shia im kafir. SO why not just stay where i am as Ahmadi Muslim.
[/QUOTE]

Interestingly, ahmadis are so frustrated when called non-muslims but in actual they consider non-ahmadis as non-muslims themselves! In a previous discussion in this forum I quoted this passage. Now I will ask ahmadis here that I have seen them follow these acts in total in real lives!

The Qadiani view of their leadership with Muslims was well summarised by their second caliph, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad:

"Our worship has been separated from the non-Ahmadis, we are prohibited from giving our daughters (in marriage) to them and we have been stopped from offering prayers for their dead. What is then left that we can do together? There are two kinds of ties: one religious and the other mundane. The greatest expression of the religious bond is in common worship and in matters mundane, these are the ties of family and marriage. But then both are forbidden (haram) to us. If you say that we are permitted to take their daughters (in marriage), then I would reply that we are allowed to marry the daughters of christians as well. If you say why do we salaam to non-Ahmadis, then the reply to this is that the Prophet (Muhammad) has said salaam to the Jews.. thus the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) has separated us in all possible ways from the others; and there is no kind of relationship which is particular to Muslims and we are not forbidden from (entering) into that." (Kalimatul Fasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad in Review of Religions, vol.14, No. 3-4, p.159)

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Here are some references…

**HE ASKED FOR IT **

Qadianis have always tried to shroud the death of Mirza Ghulam in mystery. If you ask them what was the cause of death of Mirza Ghulam, they would say: Natural Cause. They claim that that he died reciting the name of Allah etc. This article tries to trace the events leading to his death from eye witnesses who were present at the time beside him.

The year was 1907. Erstwhile opponent of Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani, known as Molvi Sanaullah Amratsari, had been writing incessantly against Mirza Qadiani, exposing his writings, and openly labeling him a Liar, Dajjal, Fabricator in his writings.

Molvi Sanaullah Amratsari:

Born in 1868. Died 15th March 1948. Immediately after finishing his education, he found himself engaged in debates with Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani. Mirza invited him to to Qadian:
“every objection he raises is absolutely false and is conceived by satan. If he is truthful, then let him come to Qadian and prove any prophecy false; and for every prophecy (that is proven false) he will be rewarded Rs. 100/= and traveling allowance is separate.” (Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, Roohani Khazain vol.19 p. 118)
He further wrote:
“It should be remembered that in the book ‘Nuzool-e-Maseeh’, I have written 150 prophecies, which means that in case I am liar, Molvi Sanaullah Saheb will take away Rs 15,000, and will be rid of going door to door begging. Rather we will present him with more prophecies with proofs, and according to the same promise continue paying him per prophecy. At the moment I have more than 100,000 members of my Jamaat. Thus if I take one rupee per mureed (follower) for Molvi Saheb, I will collect 100,000 rupees, and all of that would be presented to him. The state in which he goes door to door for two annas (cents) spoiling himself, and God’s curse descends on him, and survives on the money obtained from the shrouds of dead bodies or sermons. To receive Rs 100,000 for him would a paradise for him. But if he doesn’t explain this statement of mine and doesn’t come to Qadian with conditions mentioned above, which includes both conditions - to testify if proven otherwise deny, to investigate, the curse be on him for saying such boastful things, which he mentioned in the debate in ‘Mud’ district, and had lied shamelessly. God says: 'La taqifo maa laisaa lakaa behee ilm (Quran 17.36) but he disbelieved in front of common men without knowledge and full investigation. Is this honesty? That person is worst than dog who barks without reason, and that life is accursed life which is spent shamefully.” (Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, Roohani Khazain vol. 19 p.132)
Mirza further wrote:
“It should be noted that through Molvi Sanaullah, soon my three signs will be exhibited:
He will never come to me in Qadian to examine all the prophecies and to testify the true prophecies by his pen would be his death.
If he insists on this challenge that the liar would die before the truthful, then he would surely die first.
And first of all, his humiliation would be soon proven when he would abstain from this competition of urdu composition and arabic poetry.” (Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, Roohani Khazain vol. 19 p. 148)
Molvi Sanaullah wrote:
"The result of all this was that, I reached Qadian on 10th January 1903, 10th Shawwal 1320, and informed Mirza Saheb through a note as follows:
‘Bismillah Al-Rehman Al-Raheem. To Janab Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Saheb, Raees-e-Qadian.
This humble self, according to your invitation mentioned in Aijaz-e-Ahmadi pp. 11-13, I am presently here in Qadian. Until now, Ramadhan prevented me from accepting your invitation, otherwise I would not have delayed it. I swear upon God that I do not have any personal grievance or animosity against you. Since according to you, you are appointed on such a high position which is for the guidance of all humanity in general and for sincere persons like me especially, therefore I firmly hope that you will not spare any effort to make me understand, and as promised, you will give me permission that I will express in front of people my thoughts about your prophecies. Once again I remind you of my sincerity and the trouble that I have taken to travel all the way, and by virtue of the grand position, please give me a chance.’ … from Abu al-Wafa Sanaullah. dated 10th January 1903.’ (Tareekh-e-Mirza by Maulana Sanaullah Amratsari p. 61)
Mirza was stunned. He never thought in his wildest dreams that Molvi Sanaullah Saheb would ever come to Qadian. He replied, trying to avoid facing him. He wrote:
“I have promised God that I would never debate with those people (opponents). Thus that way which is quite far away from debates is that to clear this stage you will have to promise that you will not go out of the ‘Minhaj-e-Nabuwwat - way of the prophethood’ … 2nd condition is that you will not be allowed to speak at all. You will only give a written objection, one line or two lines, that this is your objection. Then in the gathering, a detailed reply would be given. For objection, there is no need to write in detail, just a line or two is enough. 3rd condition is that you would raise only ONE objection per day. Since you have not informed us of your coming, rather you have sneaked in like a thief, because of lack of free time and work of printing the book, we cannot spend more than three hours. Remember that this will never be allowed that you give a long lecture like a sermon in front of public, instead you will have to absolutely keep your mouth shut, as deaf and dumb, so that the talk does not turn into a debate. First you will ask only regarding one prophecy. For three hours I can give its reply, and at each you will be cautioned that even if now you are not satisfied then write it down. It would not be your task to let (people) hear your objection. We will read ourselves, but it should not be more than two or three lines. This way, you will not suffer, since you have come to clear your doubts, this way is excellent to remove doubts. I will announce to the people that regarding this prophecy, such and such doubt has come into the heart of Molvi Saheb, and this is its reply. This way all the doubts will be cleared. But if you want that like a debate you are allowed to talk, then this will never happen. (Mirza repeated the same conditions at least two more times in the next paragraph) … From my side, I swear upon God, that I would not go out of this, and will not hear anything, you will not dare to utter a single word from your mouth. And I bind you also with the swear of God, that if you have come with a true heart, then be bound to it and do not spend your life in creating trouble and disturbance. And whosoever among the two of us, breaks this oath, then God’s curse be on him, and may God will that he sees the fruit of this curse in his life. Ameen… by the pen of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by his own hand” (Tareekh-e-Mirza pp.62-64)
One would have thought that Molvi Sanaullah would have given up after reading such absurd conditions where he is not even allowed to say a single word. But Allah had given him long patience. He wrote back to Mirza Saheb:
“I received your long letter. Alas! what is the expectations of the whole country, same thing has happened. Respected Sir! When I have come according to your invitation mentioned in Aijaz-e-Ahmadi, and in clear words I have given reference of the same pages, then such long talk from you … me dear Sir, it is so sad that on the one hand you invite me to come to do research, that I prove your prophecies wrong to get the cash reward Rs. 100 for each, and then in your letter you are binding me to write just one or two lines whereas for your self you propose to have three hours!!!
Is this the way of research that I write one or two lines and you make a speech for three hours? This shows clearly that you are now regretting having invited me, and is denying your own invitation, and refraining from research, for which you had invited me on page 23. Dear Sir! Did you invite me to your house write these two lines only? I could have done better sitting in Amratsir, and am doing it already. But remembering the troubles of my journey, I do not want to go empty handed, therefore I accept your injustice as well and will write only two three lines, and you can no doubt speak for three hours. However I would request this much alteration that I would read my two three lines to the audience, and after every hour of your speech, I would express my thoughts about your speech for 5 minutes, maximum 10 minutes. Since you do not like public audience, therefore the gathering from sides would be limited to 25 persons. You akin my coming without informing you to be like a thief! Is this how you greet your guests? There was no condition that you have to be informed in advance. Moreover, you would have received the news from heavens. Whatever speech you are going to make, kindly give it to me then, and proceedings will start from today. After I receive your reply, I will send you my brief question. As far as the talk about cursing is concern, it is the same which is mentioned in hadith… from Sanaullah dated 11th January 1903” (Tareekh-e-Mirza p.65) (Hadith about Curse: If the person who has been cursed, does not deserve the curse, then it returns to the one who has cursed)

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Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani did not reply to this letter, instead instructed his disciple Mohammed Ahsan Amrohi to write the reply:
"Molvi Sanaullah Saheb, your letter was read to Hazrat-e-Aqdas, Imam-uz-Zaman, Maseeh Mowood ... since its contents were purely racist and hateful, which is far away from seeking the truth, therefore this reply is enough from Hazrat-e-Aqdas (Mirza) that you do not want to investigate the truth ... Hazrat has sworn that he would not enter into any debate with his opponents, how can an appointee of Allah go against his promise of God?... therefore your proposals are absolutely not acceptable.... From Mohammed Ahsan by order of Hazrat Imam-uz-Zaman dated 11th January 1903" (Tareekh-e-Mirza p.66)
Molvi Sanaullah went back to Amratsir, continued his relentless campaign, exposing the lies and fraud of Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani in the name of Islam, in his newspaper, Ahle Hadith. This shook the whole building of Ahmadiyyat. Finally Mirza could not take it any more. He wrote the following letter and published it in an advertisement.
The Last Rejoinder with Molvi Sanaullah
Prayer of Mirza Ghulam, against his erstwhile opponent, Molvi Sanaullah Amratsari seeking judgment from Allah

"Dear Mr. Sanaullah. Salaam on those who follow the right path. My rejection and disapproval has been going on for a long time in your magazine. You have always remembered me in your paper as Mardood, Liar, Dajjal, corrupt and have advertised me all over the world that i am a Fabricator and Dajjal, and Liar and that my claim of Maseeh Mowood is absolutely a Fabrication. .....If I am such a Liar and FAbricator, as you remember me in your paper, THEN I WILL DIE IN OUR LIFETIME, because i know that a LIAR and Corrupt does not have a long life and at last he dies as a failure within the lifetime of his fierce opponents with great humiliation and discontentment....If I am not a LIAR and FABRICATOR and is honored by the addresses of God and am Maseeh Mowood, then I hope by the Grace of God that according to the Tradition of God you will not be safe from the punishment of a LIAR. Thus that punishment which is not by human hands but only at the hands of God, such as Plague and Cholera etc. deadly diseases are not afflicted upon you than I AM NOT FROM GOD. This is not a prophecy because of inspiration or revelation, rather just as a prayer i have sought justice from God and I pray to God.... {O my Master! Baseer and Qadeer who is Aleem and Khabeer, who knows my inside the heart! If this claim of Maseeh Mowood is just a fabrication of my egotistical self, in Your Eyes I am Corrupt and Liar and day and night Fabrication is my business, then O my Beloved Master! I pray with great humility in your Presence that kill me in Molvi Sanaullah and with my death make him and his Jamaat happy. Ameen.
But O my Perfect and True God! If Molvi Sanaullah is not right in these allegations which he accuses me of, then kill him in my lifetime, BUT not by human hands, rather by Plague or Cholera deadly diseases, ... but i see that his tongue has crossed all boundaries, he considers me worse than those thieves and dacoits....he considers me worse than the whole world and has spread about me in far away places that this man actually is corrupt and trader and Liar and fabricator and an extremely bad person....Thus now I am now taking refuge in you and requests you that make true judgment between me and Sanaullah. Whoever is in your eyes truly a Liar and corrupt, KILL HIM IN THE LIFETIME OF TRUTHFUL PERSON, or afflict him with some serious illness which is like death. O My Beloved Master! Do Just that. Ameen."
In the end I request Molvi saheb to publish this article in his newspaper and whatever he likes to write underneath it. Now the Judgment is in the hands of God.
Signed: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Maseeh Mowood.
Dated 5th April 1907."
(Majmooa-e-Ishteharaat, Collection of Advertisement of Mirza Ghulam, vol.3 p.578-579. Published by Jamaat Ahmadiyya Headquarter London)
On 25th April 1907, following page of Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani's daily diary was published in Akhbar al-Badr, Qadian:
"Whatever has been written by Sanaullah, actually its foundation has been laid down by God. Once I meditated towards God about it and in the night I received this inspiration (ujeebo dawat adDaaee). For Sufis the big miracle is acceptance of prayers, rest is all its branches." (Akhbar alBadr Qadian, 25th 1907, p.7 Column 3)
This distressed prayer was accepted by Allah. Next year Mirza Ghulam died of Cholera on 26th May 1908.
DYING DECLARATION
Dying declaration is universally accepted in any court of law as a truthful deposition of a dying man. Following dying declaration of Mirza Ghulam is an irrevocable testimony of the acceptance of his supplication - to kill of that. Mir Nasir Nawab, father-in-law of Mirza Ghulam was at his bedside. He had suddenly developed diarrhea and vomiting (Cholera!). Mir Nasir in his biography, Hayat-e-Nasir, wrote:

"When i reached Hazrat Saheb and saw his condition, then he addressed me and said:
'MIR SAHEB. I HAVE DEVELOPED EPIDEMIC CHOLERA'.
I think After that He (MIRZA) did not say anything clear till he died next day at 10 am."
(Hayat-e-Nasir, p.14)
Now my dear Ahmadis/Qadianis!! This is the testimony of the father-in-law of Mirza Ghulam, also his follower, who had been beside his death bed till he died. Nowhere he mentions that Mirza said what you mentioned in your story. Also do not forget that Mirza Ghulam had studied Tibb (Medicine) and when he said cholera, he knew what he was saying. Either you tell me that your prophet/reformer lied at the time of his death or else if he didn't then it is a fact that he was afflicted by Cholera and died of it. What other condition can produce such severe dehydration especially when all the doctors were present beside him? Amazing that you are saying that it was a minor condition which result in such severe dehydration
enough to kill him. Do not forget that Mirza Ghulam had always had diarrhea due to his diabetes, so an ordinary illness would not cause dehydration.
Other thing worth noting was that his last words were 'I have Epidemic Cholera' according to his father in law and not Kalima or the name of Allah. You can imagine the realization that must have dawn on Mirza Ghulam at that final moment that finally he has been struck by the most dreadful sign of God's Anger - Cholera - and worst part of this realization was that God sealed his tongue and lips with intense dehydration so that he had no chance of repenting from his fabrications/lies
and no chance of uttering the Kalima. What a punishment!

The proof? Read the following:

"Huzoor could not talk two hours before death. Dr Mirza Yaqoob Baig and Dr Syed Mohammed Hussein Shah were the treating physician. Huzoor asked for paper and wrote on it: I have too much dryness. I can't talk." and some other words he scribbled which could not be read."
(Statement of 'SAHABI' of Mirza Ghulam Mohammed Sadiq Qadiani, Akhbar alFazl Qadian, vol.25 No.274, dated 24th November 1937)
Very distressing indeed! But a sign for those who want to heed it.

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True story of Movi Sanuallah:

The truth of the matter is that among the divines who had been challenged to a prayer duel (mubahilah) by the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, in his book Anjam Aatham, Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib's name was also included. He was, however, afraid to take up the challenge and never indicated any inclination towards accepting it; but possibly under some pressure on the side of the non-Ahmadi public, he challenged the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, to a prayer duel (mubahilah) in his paper the Ahle Hadees of 29 March 1907. With reference to this challenge the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, wrote in his book Ijaz Ahmadi:

I have seen the announcement of Maulvi Sanaullah of Amritsar in which he claims that has a sincere desire that he and I should pray that the one of us who is in the wrong should die in the lifetime of the one who is in the right.

He added:

He has made a good proposal, I trust he will keep to it. (Ijaz Ahmadi, p.14)

The Promised Messiah, peace be on him, accepted this challenge of Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib and announced:

If he is sincere in his challenge that the untruthful one should die before the truthful one then surely he will be the first to die. (Ijaz Ahmadi, p.36)

When Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib found that the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, had accepted his challenge to a prayer duel (mubahilah) he was overcome by fear and began to make excuses. He wrote:

I neither am nor do I claim like you that I am a prophet, or a messenger, or a son of God, or a recipient of revelation. I cannot, therefore, dare to enter into such a contest. Your purpose is that if I should die before you, you will proclaim that as a proof of your righteousness and if you pass on before me (a good riddance), then who will go to your grave to call you to account? That is why you put forward such stupid proposals. I regret, however, that I dare not enter into such controversy and this lack of courage is a source of honor for me and is not a source of humiliation. (Ilhamat Mirza, p. 116)

This declaration by Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib came as a great shock to his followers and he was subjected to heavy adverse criticism, whereby he was moved to proclaim:

Followers of the Mirza, if you are truthful, come forward and bring your leader with you. The same place, namely, the Idgah of Amritsar, where you have previously experienced heavenly humiliation in a prayer duel with Sufi Abdul Haq Ghaznavi, is still there. So bring him who has challenged us to a prayer duel in his book Anjam Aatham and confront him with me, for so long as there is no final decision with the prophet nothing can bind all his followers. (Ahl-i-Hadees, 29 March 1907)

Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib might have hoped that the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, would pay no attention to his hyperbolic boast and that he would thus extricate himself from an unpleasant situation. However, when the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, read this announcement of his, he directed the Editor of Badar to announce:

In reply to his challenge I wish to convey to Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib the good news that Hazrat Mirza Sahib (the Promised Messiah) has accepted his challenge. (Badar, 4 April 1907)

This announcement upset Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib and being frightened he announced:

I have not challenged you to a mubahilah, I have only declared my willingness to take an oath, but you call it a mubahilah, whereas a mubahilah involves the parties taking oaths in a contest against each other. I have declared my readiness to take an oath and have not issued a challenge to a mubahilah. Taking an unilateral oath is one thing and mubahilah is quite another. (Ahle Hadees, 19 April 1907)

Perceiving that Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib was not prepared to take a definite stand, the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, published an announcement under the heading:

Final decision concerning Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib, and concluded it with the statement:

Now Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib may write in response whatever he pleases. In case he accepts the challenge to a mubahilah he should record his acceptance of it over his signature.

In answer to this, Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib wrote as follows:

The Quran says that the evil-doers are granted respite by God. For instance, it is said: 'The Gracious One grants respite to those who are in error' (19:76); and: 'We grant them respite so that they might multiply their sins' (3:97); 'God will leave them to flounder on in their transgression' (2:16); and: 'The fact is that We provided for them and their fathers and they remained in enjoyment of Our provision for a long time' (21 :45). All these clearly mean that God Almighty, grants respite and bestows long life on liars, deceivers, disturbers of the peace and disobedient ones, so that during the period of respite they should add to their evil deeds. (Ahle Hadees, 26 April 1907)

Thus Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib not only rejected the challenge of the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, to a mubahilah, but also put forward a principle that liars, deceivers, disorderly people and disobedient ones are granted long life. Thereupon God Almighty granted long life to Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib according to the principle which he had put forward and brought about the death of the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, thus confirming that according to his own declaration Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib was a disorderly and disobedient person and was a liar and a deceiver.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *

Interestingly, ahmadis are so frustrated when called non-muslims but in actual they consider non-ahmadis as non-muslims themselves! In a previous discussion in this forum I quoted this passage. Now I will ask ahmadis here that I have seen them follow these acts in total in real lives!

The Qadiani view of their leadership with Muslims was well summarised by their second caliph, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad:

"Our worship has been separated from the non-Ahmadis, we are prohibited from giving our daughters (in marriage) to them and we have been stopped from offering prayers for their dead. What is then left that we can do together? There are two kinds of ties: one religious and the other mundane. The greatest expression of the religious bond is in common worship and in matters mundane, these are the ties of family and marriage. But then both are forbidden (haram) to us. If you say that we are permitted to take their daughters (in marriage), then I would reply that we are allowed to marry the daughters of christians as well. If you say why do we salaam to non-Ahmadis, then the reply to this is that the Prophet (Muhammad) has said salaam to the Jews.. thus the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) has separated us in all possible ways from the others; and there is no kind of relationship which is particular to Muslims and we are not forbidden from (entering) into that." (Kalimatul Fasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad in Review of Religions, vol.14, No. 3-4, p.159)
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they do beleive they are right, and the rest of the large Islamic world is wrong... I wonder what they have to say to that?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Perplexing,

While offering daily prayers, don't you send darood on the holy prophet?

Can you honestly tell me that by writing those sentences in his book, the promised messiah is naozolbillah claiming superiority over the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him).

Now here is an excerpt from one of his books about the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him):

[/QUOTE]

Fateh Ahmad Sahib. You are being very hypocritical about all of this....yes we do send daroood on Prophet Muhammad SAW. But does Allah send Darood on Prophet SAW...???? No!!! On one hand you take Jesus being 2000 years as superiority over Prophet SAW. On the other hand the fact that Mirza Sahib is saying that Allah will come down to earth for him and sends Darood on him does not phase you. This is absurd and un-heard of that Allah has been praising Mirza and will come down to earth for him. We are Muslims not Christians GOD does not come down to earth for one person..... I have been very logical this far and understanding. But you are crossing the boudaries of sanity by not seeing this and if you are then I do not wish to discuss anything else here, as discussion has a common ground of rationality and sanity. As far as providing references from Roohani Khazain, Mirza Sahib does not have a single issue where he keeps a balance and sticks to his words. He goes from being a Mujadid to a Zilli Prophet and from being like Jesus to being Jesus to being lord Krishna.

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You have the liberty to believe what ever you want. No one can, is forcing you to change your belief. But be rational,when you see something wrong, admit it if you have the courage to do so. If not then keep quiet but don't give lousy excuses for it or think, posting a reply is attributed as being victorious.

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Mr. Perplexing,

What do you thing a 'darood' is? Why do we send salam/darood on the Holy Prophet?

Salam/Darood is a kind of a prayer asking Allah to show his blessings on the Holy Prophet and his people?

Can you show me a prophet in the history of the world, who has Allah's blessings more than that of Holy Prophet?

Holy Prophet always had the blessings,'Fazal' and 'Salamati' from Allah. Allah was always showering these on his beloved prophet!

I found nothing objectionable in those sentences and as I have already mentioned in one of the old threads that you are trying to play with words. You would object to anything Promised Messiah wrote, just for the sake of opposing it even if its written about the lofty status of Holy Prophet or in hamd of Allah.

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Mr. Perplexing,

Allah doesn't have a physical body. Allah is every where all the time. Allah doesn't need to descend on this earth. When somebody says that Allah has come down it means that they have its 'fazal' and 'rehmat' with them.

Another Hadith was discussed previously in one of the other threads where it was mentioned that Allah would become hands, ears and legs of the one who would excel in his prayers. Did that mean Allah would physicaly ascend on that person.

Please try not to take everything literaly because it'll not take you anywhere

70

Well then why are we taking the claims of Mehdi Sahib literal. When he said that he was a Muhaddith, a Prophet , re-encarnation of Jesus, Noah, Lord Krishna...what did he really mean..??? was that a metaphore for something too.....May be when we say La ilaha illallahu we don't mean there is no GOD but Allah...but there are other little GODs called Allah that Hindus worship and there fore they are GODs as well....

(Subhanullah)

Rubbana Yassir.

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[quote]
Allah doesn't have a physical body. Allah is every where all the time. Allah doesn't need to descend on this earth. When somebody says that Allah has come down it means that they have its 'fazal' and 'rehmat' with them.

[/quote]

*Then why do you look up when you pray..?? and then why do you...bring your hands together facing upward when you pray...???

*What is Ursh....???

*Why do we say OOOPER WALAY ki marzi....???

*Why is it that this Ayah says DOWN...

[47.2] As for the believers who do good works and believe in what is sent down (the Koran) to Muhammad which is the truth from their Lord He will acquit them of their sins and repair their condition.

*why does it use the word down in this Ayah....

[5.112] When the disciples said: 'O (Prophet) Jesus, son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a table from heaven? ' He replied: 'Have fear of Allah, if you are believers.

Why was the Quran sent down....
[17.82] We **sent down* of the Koran that which is a healing and a mercy to believers, but to the harmdoers it does not increase them, except in loss.

Indeed his Rehmat reaches every where, that does not mean HE IS COMING down.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
I found nothing objectionable in those sentences and as I have already mentioned in one of the old threads that you are trying to play with words. You would object to anything Promised Messiah wrote, just for the sake of opposing it even if its written about the lofty status of Holy Prophet or in hamd of Allah.
[/QUOTE]

Obviously no one has ever told you that Hamd and calling some one a thief are not the same things. If you want to do Hamd by calling Allah a thief and a Leopard then be my guest friend.

73

Mr Fateh Sahib I think you Just proved your Messiah wrong....

*Thus Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib not only rejected the challenge of the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, to a mubahilah, but also put forward a principle that liars, deceivers, disorderly people and disobedient ones are granted long life. Thereupon God Almighty granted long life to Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib according to the principle which he had put forward and brought about the death of the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, thus confirming that according to his own declaration Maulvi Sanaullah Sahib was a disorderly and disobedient person and was a liar and a deceiver.
*

But this is what the Messiah said....

*
"To Ustad Sanahullah - Salam on whosoever follows the guidance. For a considerable period, I have been called a liar and a profligate in your magazine 'Ahl-e-Hadith'. In this magazine, you always call me 'This accursed liar, anti-Christ, corrupter'. It publicizes to the whole world that I am an innovator, a liar, an anti-Christ; that I have forged a lie as far as my claim of Messiahship is concerned'. I have suffered considerable pain at your hands, but I remained patient. But when I realized that I have been commissioned for dissemination of the truth and you prevent people from paying attention to me on account of your calumnies against me. So, I pray that if I am a liar and an innovator, as you refer to me in your magazine, then I shall die during your life-time, because I know that the life-span of a liar and a corrupter is not long. Instead, he lies frustrated during the life-time of his staunch enemies, in shame and degradation. In his death lies the welfare of God's creatures, as he can not mislead them after his death. But if I am not a liar and an innovator, but I am honored by Allah's address and dialogue, and I am the promised Messiah, then I pray that you shall not escape the end of liars according to God's practice. So I announce that if you do not die during my life by God's punishment which can not but be from God alone - for example that you die of plague or Cholera - then I am not an Apostle of God Almighty. *

(Badr, April 15, 1907)

P.S. I thought the Liar and a fabricator had a long life to Multiply there sins but Mirza Sahib is saying the opposite.

74

Mr. Perplexing,

So you are saying that earth that we live on is void of the 'hasti bari-tallah'!

In Holy Quran Allah says that he is every where:

Non-Ahmadi sources:

'We are closer to him than the big artery in his neck,' in the 16th ayat al-karima of Surat al-Qaf, and, 'Allahu ta'ala is with you wherever you happen to be!' in the fourth ayat al-karima of Surat al-Hadid.

All these things that we say about Allah that 'uppar wale kee marzi', or praying with open hands facing upwards, these are just symbols.

75

I wanted to say couple of things since the topic of Prophecies has been started by you guys.....

This was what you said as a reply to my question to when Mirza Sahib was born.

[quote]
Mr. Perplexing.

The Promised Messiah was born in Qadian dated 1835.

[/quote]

*
Enemies wish for my death and prophecise about it. God has, however, given me the good news that I shall live for eighty (80) years or more."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 239; Mawahib-ur-Rahman, P. 21)
*

I think you know when he died,do the math!

76

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. Perplexing,

So you are saying that earth that we live on is void of the 'hasti bari-tallah'!

In Holy Quran Allah says that he is every where:

Non-Ahmadi sources:

'We are closer to him than the big artery in his neck,' in the 16th ayat al-karima of Surat al-Qaf, and, 'Allahu ta'ala is with you wherever you happen to be!' in the fourth ayat al-karima of Surat al-Hadid.

All these things that we say about Allah that 'uppar wale kee marzi', or praying with open hands facing upwards, these are just symbols.
[/QUOTE]

The part in the Ayahs where Allah himself has said I have sent DOWN the Quran. Thats a symbol as well....??? Right!!!

77

Fateh Sahib where did Mirza Sahib die...???

I will die either in Mekkah or Medina."
(Tadhkira, P. 591)

78

"To Judge my truthfulness or lies, there is no better test than my prophecies."
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 19, P. 288)

79

Mr. Perplexing,

You wrote:

[QUOTE]
The part in the Ayahs where Allah himself has said I have sent DOWN the Quran. Thats a symbol as well....??? Right!!!
[/QUOTE]

So where do you think Quran was before it was sent DOWN?

I have already told you that taking everything literaly will not lead you anywhere!

80

Mr. Perplexing,

About Molvi Sanaullah! please read my post carefully. First rule of a Mubahala is that its not one-sided. The other side have to accept it. And in case of Molvi Sanaullah, he didn't accept the challenge of the Promised Messiah and ran away from it.

Thats what Molvi Sanaullah replied to the Promised Messiah:

[QUOTE]
I neither am nor do I claim like you that I am a prophet, or a messenger, or a son of God, or a recipient of revelation. I cannot, therefore, dare to enter into such a contest. Your purpose is that if I should die before you, you will proclaim that as a proof of your righteousness and if you pass on before me (a good riddance), then who will go to your grave to call you to account? That is why you put forward such stupid proposals. I regret, however, that I dare not enter into such controversy and this lack of courage is a source of honor for me and is not a source of humiliation. (Ilhamat Mirza, p. 116)
[/QUOTE]

but after on the strong