French headscarf ban recommended / Chirac wants law banning muslim headscraf [Merged]

Society Religion & Philosophy
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*Originally posted by myvoice: *

**
I don't read every thread in all forums. But, I just looked in General for the last several days and see no title that is immediately clear to me as discussing this. And since Chirac's statement happened today (Wednesday), I don't see how it could have been discussed to death. **

people got on to it way before chirac stated it since this has been in discussion for sometime in france. I will get the title of the post and list it here.

Thanks for adding your opinion though. I sort of agree with it but let me ask this:

*Why is it OK for Muslims to practice their religion freely in public schools by wearing scarves and Jews to practice their religion freely in public schools by wearing skullcaps in public schools but it is not alright for Christians to practice their religion freely in public schools by saying a prayer, or putting up a nativity scene, or displaying the ten commandments? Where do you see the line that differentiates between legitimate government regulation and the free exercise of religion? *

Let me attempt to answer this

When a muslim girl wears a hijab, or a jewish guy wears a skull cap, they are not imposing it on anyone else. They are not asking others to wear scarves or skull caps, just like when a christian kid wears a crucifix.

Now when it comes to prayer, if the school is doing it and its a christian prayer, it has been imposed on the non christian students..why not pray to Rama, or Yehwe, Allah, Buddha, Gaya or whoever. heh maybe rotate who ppl pray to every day :) like that is ever going to fly.

I would think a better solution is to have a time to meditate..people can silently say a prayer, meditate or think about what they want for lunch, no one willk be imposing their beliefs on another person.

I dont have an issue with nativity scenes or ten commandments, as long as then people of other faiths have an equal ability to put up whatever they want, whether it is a statue of kaali, Buddha, writings from teh Bahai holy book.

I say it again..if france wants to have "all" religious symbolism out of its public institutions, I expect to see Chirac and his staff at work..as well as the rest of france's public sector workers on christmas day.

22

**Originally posted by myvoice: *
...
If government's role is to eliminate religion from public view, is it not just catering to the sensitivities of atheists who probably are the smallest group of all?
*

I do believe that its more like catering towards atheists views. Schools should allow religious symbols and promot tolerance and education regarding other religions.... unless Chirac wants to turn France into an almost atheist country where no religion will be "visible".

*I STILL ALSO WONDER WHY CHIRAC SUPPORTING THIS KIND OF BAN WHICH IS MORE DIRECTED AT MUSLIMS THAN ANY OTHER GROUP GETS A PASS ON THE ANTI-MUSLIM METER WHILE GWB WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY CRUCIFIED FOR TAKING A SIMILAR STAND. DOUBLE STANDARD? HYPOCRICY? *

No, you should take chill pill. No body (in Muslims) is happy and have been voicing their concerns. Be it GWB, Musharraf, Chirac or Turkish govt., Muslims have disliked the banning, have voiced their concerns.

I don't know how it becomes hypocricy.

23

[quote]
I'm not fanatical either way on this issue but it seems to me that starting a day with a 1 minute silence to allow for a silent prayer should not be disallowed. Everyone could say their own prayers quietly. Alternatively, anyone who represents a religion in the class could say an oral prayer and I'd be OK with that too. It might even make people more aware of and knowledgeable about other religions. The only place I have a hard time is when a single religion is promoted in a classroom environment where not all students are of that religion. But in the US, all of these things are not permitted.
[/quote]

myvoice... you must have noticed that most objections (i.e. court cases) on bringing religion into schools do not come from muslims, jews or christians.. but by aetheists, who do not believe in any god and therefore are against any sort of prayer. If you ask muslims they will be perfectly fine, actually prefer, to have a space/time alloted where they can pray in their own way, and others can pray in their own way. As long as our religion does not interfere with yours, or yours does not interfere with ours, it really is a non-issue. When someone tries to force down their religions on others, then it becomes a problem, for countries who claim to be secular and promote freedom.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
I STILL ALSO WONDER WHY CHIRAC SUPPORTING THIS KIND OF BAN WHICH IS MORE DIRECTED AT MUSLIMS THAN ANY OTHER GROUP GETS A PASS ON THE ANTI-MUSLIM METER WHILE GWB WOULD BE ABSOLUTELY CRUCIFIED FOR TAKING A SIMILAR STAND. DOUBLE STANDARD? HYPOCRICY?
[/QUOTE]

Oi Geeza..a can of whoop azz has been opened about this law and has been in discussion already. You want ppl to use Chirac's name specifically??? okay here goes... Chirac is a moron giving into the right wingers of his country who have remained closet racists forever, who cant handke the fact that France's glory days are behind it, and it is now a me-too player on the world stage, and that french culture has been bypassed bigtime. Since they cant accomplish jack on the world stage they have turned inwards to protect "their way" by making idiotic laws.

The same lameness was in action when they had an issue a few years back where they wanted french radios to play a certain percentage of french music as a law (as if there is a frnech version of snoop dawg or Tupac)

happy mon ami?

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From the responses so far (even among people who rarely see things the same way), it appears as if all of us see that the exercise of religion can coexist in a public school environment. It's amazing that our Courts and state, local and national governments can't find a reasonable accomodation as we have.

Perhaps one of our American Guppies who ascribe to the more liberal minded philosophy that prayers, nativity scenes, and the like ought to be totally excluded from public schools and other public places could chime in here and tell us why accomodating all religions in these public environments is wrong.

Fraudz and all. Yes I am happy. I perused the thread in the religion forum as well. Today though appears to be the first time Chirac himself has come out and endorsed this move publicly. He's the elected leader of the country for goodness sake.

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btw to see how ppl feel about it, u can look at a thread titled
"hmm so a hijab really is more then just a head scarf!?"

in religion section.

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How about praying before school? Nativity Scenes do not belong in public schools, would you like the Lord’s Prayer said before daily announcements too?

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Christmas is as part of American culture as anything else we have to offer. Christ is the reason for the season. I see nothing wrong with public school displays of the nativity scene. Likewise there is nothing wrong with displays of other religion's symbols. That is all part of a free society with religous tolerance and freedom.

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UTD but in publich schools if people can celebrate their race..why cant they celebrate their faith? just dont impose it on others..and for students..they dont have to agree with it or ascribe to it but as long as they can respect that their fellow students are celebrating their faith.

christians can have nativity scenes
jews can have menorahs
muslims can have stars and crescents
hindus can have kaali
aethists can have a blank canvas.

I dont particularly care, it may actually serve as an informal learning tool for kids to learn about other faiths..since schools have done a pretty piss poor job of that anyways..

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I agree with MyVoices contention that if GWB had proposed the same law, Gupshup would be in flames, with thousands of angry smilies.

Chirac gets a free ride.

Personally I am for free expression fo religion so long as it does not interfere with the rights of others.

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I agree that students may be taught about religion, but public schools may not teach religion, it would help rid the sterotypes thta exist today. What you cannot do is allow schools to promote or endorse religious themes, which nativity scenes and menorahs do.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Nativity Scenes do not belong in public schools,
[/QUOTE]

Why? As suggested above, why not let Jews display menorahs on their days, christians display nativity scenes on their days, Muslims display whatever symbols are important to them on their days, etc. etc. You could have a special assembly as well teaching about what those symbols mean and why they are important days to people who worship as they do.

It's a pretty sad commentary on our educational system that I could go through 19 years of schooling (not counting kindergarden or preschool) to get my law degree and never know what Passover meant to the Jews, Ramadan to the Muslims, etc. Teach the kids about these things and I think you are teaching tolerance.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
would you like the Lord’s Prayer said before daily announcements too?
[/QUOTE]

If you've got a class that includes children of multiple religions, I think prayers from all of them would be appropriate. Either on alternating days or all on the same day or something like that. The importance of religion in people's personal lives and in world relations is obvious. To fail to teach it is like an ostrich putting its head in the sand.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *

If you've got a class that includes children of multiple religions, I think prayers from all of them would be appropriate. Either on alternating days or all on the same day or something like that.

[/QUOTE]

Is this only going to be done with the major faiths or any cockamamie belief system that one believes in?

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^ You have cross your limits UTD...if you state one more time that you view the counterclockwise whirling derveshes as a cockamamie faith..i will..i will..hmmm...well do nothing..sigh

sheesh bro whirrling is aerobic..now thats something an avg american kid needs from what i read about obesity in school age kids.

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Life, liberty and the pursuit of McGriddles

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
I agree with MyVoices contention that if GWB had proposed the same law, Gupshup would be in flames, with thousands of angry smilies.

Chirac gets a free ride. ....
[/QUOTE]

May be it would have brought a whole lot more flames if GWB had said it. Why? Because its GWB's admin who has dropped more bombs on "Muslim countries" then French has in recent history.

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Dropping bombs?

Perhaps you ahould look at the Mirage planes Iraq is flying, or the billions in debt, loaned to Saddam to keep his tyrrany going, or the 20 years of "lucrative" oil deals that kept his oil money flowing.

Chirac and France are getting a GIANT free ride here.

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First, Chirac has been catching hell on this. I caught a minute of one of those roundtable shows on the French channel this morning and this was the topic.. I couldn't stay to watch it, but those folks were pissed. As for on GS, the lack of personal outrage just goes to show what insignificant figures Chirac and France are. Proportionally with their global influence they're getting plenty of outrage.

Now, why shouldn't nativity scenes and the like be displayed in schools? The difference between a nativity scene and a crucifix necklace is that one requires a collective effort while the other is merely personal. That, and the whole slippery-slope thing.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Chirac and France are getting a GIANT free ride here.
[/QUOTE]

I think they get a free ride because they are anti-everything. If the enemy of my enemy is truly my friend, then no matter who or what I am "anti" for, the French probably are too. Heck, during the Vichy government, the majority of them were even anti-French.

For many, the French score 10 points for being anti-American and only lose 1 point for being racist anti-Muslim cowards. This is probably so since the last attribute makes them unlikely to drop a bomb on a Muslim and their attacks against Islam are presently limited to interfering with the free exercise of religion. That will probably remain so until they throw flowers in the streets welcoming the next fascist dictator to govern them.

40

You guys are getting too worked up on Chirac.. the lack of vitriol isn't any calculated thing.. people just don't give a damn about him. When they hear this sort of thing they'll be annoyed, but just on this subject. When they hear him denouncing America, they'll cheer, but only on that subject. The status quo on Chirac is to ignore him. That's about all the attention he rightly deserves. America is constantly in the spotlight due to our pseudo-hegemony. Can't be ignored. So when something like this comes from America, it happens on top of another event and the two get run together, the anger rises. The Bush hate your thinking of is a cumulative effect. Can't have any such thing with a one-hit-wonder like Chirac.