Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Only idiots and retards would support or ignore deliberate and hateful acts using any excuse.

Don't care is what is wrong. A good human being will care.

Not supporting over-reaction by any means here.

Learn to ignore stupidity. Its a very very simple point. DOGS will bark, that is their nature. When you bark back at a dog, then it YOU, not THEY who are considered mad, and it YOU who is then considered idiotic and "retarded."

A HUMAN being will care when something is worthy of being cared about, a STUPID human being will care when it is NOT worth caring about. Who is stupider, the people who made the video, or those responding t them. Think about this.

Merc made an excellent point. The people making this movie are Dogs, but who is their right mind would think that a barking dog is worth reponding too? If you know someone is taling bakwas, and they have no reason, WHY WHY WHY would you argue with them??!?!? :) Nothing retarded about that!

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

I think you missed the point. Out 2 billion people if only 0.01% react to such extreme provocation than that is still 200,000 people. Everyone knew that there would be a reaction, only the scale of the reaction was debatable.

The other point that you are missing is that the U.S could and should have convicted the people responsible and if necessary it should bring in new laws like in did in regards to the funerals of military personnel. If any other group had been offended e.g the jews then you could have expected a sure response from the government of the U.S.

And those .01 percent are wrong to even react to this nonsense. And "extreme" provocation is debatable. I have seen worse. The Taliban are far more offensive to me, with their videos of beheaded Pakistani soldiers, their child suicide bombers, their murder of artists, their public hangings, their kidnapping and murder etc etc, then some idiot making some lame movie that no one ever heard of until some idiot mullah decided it was a big deal. Yet, Muslims will be apologetic towards the Taliban but will foam at the mouth over this movie. The hypocrisy is no less palpable among the so called Muslims then among the Americans.

The US is a sovereign nation with its own set of laws and its own set of standards. Its values are not your values, obviously. To impose your standards on them is as unreasonable as for them to do so on the Muslim nations. The relationship between the US and Jews and the US and Muslims is more complicated and not as simple as you make it. The relationship is far more dynamic and complex and its not as simplistic as Jewish=Good, Muslim=Bad. Give the US the benefit of the doubt as you would demand the same of US when it comes to your Muslim countries. When you say that the Muslim world is misunderstood, understand that the Muslims do the same disservice to the Americans. The fact that so many people cite French and English laws to justify their attack on the US shows this dissonance.

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

LOL you folks make me laugh at times. What Pakistan is or is not...lets leave that aside for one minute. Do you agree or disagree that U.S is full of hypocrisy and if not then the reasons why?

As far as Pakistan is concerned are you saying that we should call the invading armies and rulers of the past terrorist villains? And because we don't call them terrorists we are hypocrites? Don't make any sense to me......how about you elaborate on this point a bit further?

You name me one society in history that wasn't hypocritical in one way or another. Hypocrisy is a common trait amongst many nations.

You are at fault in condemning the hypocrisy of others while ignoring that among your own.

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Learn to ignore stupidity. Its a very very simple point. DOGS will bark, that is their nature. When you bark back at a dog, then it YOU, not THEY who are considered mad, and it YOU who is then considered idiotic and "retarded."

A HUMAN being will care when something is worthy of being cared about, a STUPID human being will care when it is NOT worth caring about. Who is stupider, the people who made the video, or those responding t them. Think about this.

Merc made an excellent point. The people making this movie are Dogs, but who is their right mind would think that a barking dog is worth reponding too? OH, right, u and this Arshad character... :) Nothing retarded about that!

I am not happy about human beings being equated with dogs, but since you folks want to use dogs in your analogy lets use a dog then.

Dogs barking is normal. It is the same as humans talking. Nobody takes any offence as it is normal and the dog does not mean any harm. But in this case the dog does not bark but it actually jumps at you with the aim of biting you. It actually manages to tear up something that has immense sentimental value to you. Some may still ignore but a few will not be able to control their emotions.

I am not interested in the film, what is worrying for me is the double standards and hypocrispy of the West but in particular the U.S.

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

How can you equate humans with dogs? Getting barked at and then in return barking....you seriously need to find a better analolgy. Are we all just dogs to you?

Now listen carefully to the following two words......1. Action 2. Re-Action.

The action takes place first and as a result of that action (as any sensible person will know) a reaction follows. According to your twisted logic the action is ok and the reaction is wrong. The provation is ok and the protest is wrong. It's ok for the Israelis to attack but not for the Palestinians to react. If there was no action i.e the film then there would be no reaction. No matter what you do out of 1 or 2 billion people (take your pick) some of them would protest.

I can equate the two quite easily. Dogs bark because it is their nature. They cant make YouTube video, but they can bark, so that is their medium of choice. Humans who hate, hate because it is their own nature. And they use Youtube as their medium, but would bark if that could get the sam response.

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

You name me one society in history that wasn't hypocritical in one way or another. Hypocrisy is a common trait amongst many nations.

You are at fault in condemning the hypocrisy of others while ignoring that among your own.

So you are accepting that the U.S is hypocritical, and stating that it is ok to be hypocritical? Do you even know what you are saying?

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

I can equate the two quite easily. Dogs bark because it is their nature. They cant make YouTube video, but they can bark, so that is their medium of choice. Humans who hate, hate because it is their own nature. And they use Youtube as their medium, but would bark if that could get the sam response.

So you are accepting that the video was put out because someone hated muslims. When one human being hates a group or religion and takes concrete steps to spread that hate even against his own fellow citizens....where is your government..and why is it not acting?

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

And those .01 percent are wrong to even react to this nonsense. And "extreme" provocation is debatable. I have seen worse. The Taliban are far more offensive to me, with their videos of beheaded Pakistani soldiers, their child suicide bombers, their murder of artists, their public hangings, their kidnapping and murder etc etc, then some idiot making some lame movie that no one ever heard of until some idiot mullah decided it was a big deal. Yet, Muslims will be apologetic towards the Taliban but will foam at the mouth over this movie. The hypocrisy is no less palpable among the so called Muslims then among the Americans.

The US is a sovereign nation with its own set of laws and its own set of standards. Its values are not your values, obviously. To impose your standards on them is as unreasonable as for them to do so on the Muslim nations. The relationship between the US and Jews and the US and Muslims is more complicated and not as simple as you make it. The relationship is far more dynamic and complex and its not as simplistic as Jewish=Good, Muslim=Bad. Give the US the benefit of the doubt as you would demand the same of US when it comes to your Muslim countries. When you say that the Muslim world is misunderstood, understand that the Muslims do the same disservice to the Americans. The fact that so many people cite French and English laws to justify their attack on the US shows this dissonance.

So you are saying that the taliban is doing wrong things in Pakistan and so some people should do wrong things in the U.S as well. How pathetic.

Difference is the Pakistani state is fighting and killing these terrorists, whereas the U.S state is supporting the people that are spreading hatred (accepted by you).

Do you know how many innocent people the U.S has killed in the last decade only? It is a lot more than the taliban. The Taliban does not even come close.

[rommel]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

So you are saying that the taliban is doing wrong this in Pakistan and so some people should do wrong things in the U.S. How pathetic.

Difference is the Pakistani state is fighting and killing these terrorists, whereas the U.S state is supporting the people that are spreading hatred.

Do you know how many innocent people the U.S has killed in the last decade only? It is a lot more than the taliban.

Don't attack United States and their war crimes and hypocrisy or their dog will bark and make excuses for them!

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

I am not happy about human beings being equated with dogs, but since you folks want to use dogs in your analogy lets use a dog then.

Dogs barking is normal. It is the same as humans talking. Nobody takes any offence as it is normal and the dog does not mean any harm. But in this case the dog does not bark but it actually jumps at you with the aim of biting you. It actually manages to tear up something that has immense sentimental value to you. Some may still ignore but a few will not be able to control their emotions.

I am not interested in the film, what is worrying for me is the double standards and hypocrispy of the West but in particular the U.S.

i AGREE.. But lets not assume that those who are unable to control themselves are in the right. Those that are unable to control themselves and exceed the bounds of reason are equally guilty as those who provoked them to begin with. Simply examine what your own religion, ISLAM, says on the matter of anger, and exceeding bounds of reason.

We all know there are those who wil respond to even the slightest provocation.The question here isnt whether or not there will be those who will respond, regardless of the degree of response, but whether or not this apparent provocation DESERVES a response. What we are saying is that this is another of those situations in which you DONT need to respond. You have pick your battles, and this is not one that is worth fighting. And if you must, then silence really speaks louder then words.

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Don't attack United States and their war crimes and hypocrisy or their dog will bark and make excuses for them!

LOL let the dogs bark....they have an inferiority complex and need to prove themselves in their new country.

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

i AGREE.. But lets not assume that those who are unable to control themselves are in the right. Those that are unable to control themselves and exceed the bounds of reason are equally guilty as those who provoked them to begin with. Simply examine what your own religion, ISLAM, says on the matter of anger, and exceeding bounds of reason.

We all know there are those who wil respond to even the slightest provocation.The question here isnt whether or not there will be those who will respond, regardless of the degree of response, but whether or not this apparent provocation DESERVES a response. What we are saying is that this is another of those situations in which you DONT need to respond. You have pick your battles, and this is not one that is worth fighting. And if you must, then silence really speaks louder then words.

I am not saying that they are right. I am saying that the government is wrong in allowing people to provoke other people and to spread their hatred. That is why we have governments. They are they to look after the collective well being of society and to promote social cohesion, and instead they are failing and regressing. People make mistakes, people do wrong things at times, but that is why we have governments and systems to ensure that no injustices are done. Talk about every country under the sun regressing...the U.S itself is regressing.

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

So you are saying that the taliban is doing wrong things in Pakistan and so some people should do wrong things in the U.S as well. How pathetic.

Difference is the Pakistani state is fighting and killing these terrorists, whereas the U.S state is supporting the people that are spreading hatred (accepted by you).

Do you know how many innocent people the U.S has killed in the last decade only? It is a lot more than the taliban. The Taliban does not even come close.

No im saying stop singling out the AMERICANS solely. If you must be so offended, then be equally offended by those among your own religion. Infact, be more offended by those among your own faith, because they apparently represent you religion.

In the US you are allowed to speak your mind, NOT Murder people. Criticizing a religion is accepted be it Islam, christianity or judaism. The govt will not stop you, or cannot stop you. What is not accepted is MURDER and VIOLENCE! I dont understand how you fail to see the distinction between offensive speech and outright violence.
The Pakistani state is not selectively targeting SOME Taliban, but for the most part, they allow extremists to go about their business unmolested.
If you recall, they pretty much had given Swat to Fazlullah until he tried to expand into other areas. And when they do attack them, it justified on the grounds that the Taliban dont simply talk, they actually commit violent acts of murder and terrorism. Thats the difference, one is simply speaking (in the US) and the other is actively pursuing violence and criminality.

Do you have any data to present on how many "innocent" people were killed by the US as compared to the Taliban? Or are you just presenting that as your opinion, and simply being an apologist for Taliban crimes again? And even if you are right, even if only one person was murdered at the hands of the Taliban, that should be far more offensive to you, since as I already mentioned, they do it under the guise of the same religion you adhere to, so they should be held to a higher standard, at least by those who share their religious beliefs.

Stop this nonsense about the US CHANGING ITS LAWS. It will not. Tell me, in Pakistan, people often denigrate and insult Ahmadis. The insults hurled on them by Pakistanis is no less repulsive to them then the insults hurled at Muslims by Americans to you. If the Americans told you that PAKISTAN must change its laws regarding AHMADIS, and no one could insult their prophet in Pakistan, you would scoff at that idea as well, would you not? That sort of thing would be absurd to you, but you demanding Americans change their laws to disallow any American citizen from criticizing Islam, is completely reasonable? Your bias only favors your own religion, BUT ignores the culture and heritage of everyone else.

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

I am not saying that they are right. I am saying that the government is wrong in allowing people to provoke other people and to spread their hatred. That is why we have governments. They are they to look after the collective well being of society and to promote social cohesion, and instead they are failing and regressing. People make mistakes, people do wrong things at times, but that is why we have governments and systems to ensure that no injustices are done. Talk about every country under the sun regressing...the U.S itself is regressing.

The govt can not do anything... This is not a dictatorship. You might see hypocrisy in it, but the US govt does not have such authority. You have to be reasonable here.
The social cohesion you see in not allowing people to openly criticize religion, is not so in the opinion of others. It is a false cohesion, an artificial cohesion which is bound to collapse under its own weight. Not being allowed to speak your mind OPENLY, allows the danger of making a society stagnant. Obvious wrongs are allowed to fester. People commit crimes in the guise of this holy cow that is religion and no one can challenge them because doing so risks challenging that which is considered sacred. Worse it creates a society in which people are encouraged to not think, to believe and regurgitate.
Hence the reason why so many Pakistanis are unable to reconcile their revulsion for the crimes of the Taliban, and their supposed Islamic credentials.

There is more hypocrisy in a state which forces a particular belief system, then one that allows people to think for themselves.

Regress and progress are relative terms. It depends on where you stand. To those living in the past, a society regressing 100 years is making progress, but to those looking to the future, society going anywhere other then forward is going to be regressive.

[Med911]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

LOL let the dogs bark....they have an inferiority complex and need to prove themselves in their new country.

You have a superiority complex, and need to prove yourselves by burning down your own homes. Good job.

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

No im saying stop singling out the AMERICANS solely. If you must be so offended, then be equally offended by those among your own religion. Infact, be more offended by those among your own faith, because they apparently represent you religion.

In the US you are allowed to speak your mind, NOT Murder people. Criticizing a religion is accepted be it Islam, christianity or judaism. The govt will not stop you, or cannot stop you. What is not accepted is MURDER and VIOLENCE! I dont understand how you fail to see the distinction between offensive speech and outright violence. The Pakistani state is not selectively targeting SOME Taliban, but for the most part, they allow extremists to go about their business unmolested. If you recall, they pretty much had given Swat to Fazlullah until he tried to expand into other areas. And when they do attack them, it justified on the grounds that the Taliban dont simply talk, they actually commit violent acts of murder and terrorism. Thats the difference, one is simply speaking (in the US) and the other is actively pursuing violence and criminality.

Do you have any data to present on how many "innocent" people were killed by the US as compared to the Taliban? Or are you just presenting that as your opinion, and simply being an apologist for Taliban crimes again? And even if you are right, even if only one person was murdered at the hands of the Taliban, that should be far more offensive to you, since as I already mentioned, they do it under the guise of the same religion you adhere to, so they should be held to a higher standard, at least by those who share their religious beliefs.

Stop this nonsense about the US CHANGING ITS LAWS. It will not. Tell me, in Pakistan, people often denigrate and insult Ahmadis. The insults hurled on them by Pakistanis is no less repulsive to them then the insults hurled at Muslims by Americans to you. If the Americans told you that PAKISTAN must change its laws regarding AHMADIS, and no one could insult their prophet in Pakistan, you would scoff at that idea as well, would you not? That sort of thing would be absurd to you, but you demanding Americans change their laws to disallow any American citizen from criticizing Islam, is completely reasonable? Your bias only favors your own religion, BUT ignores the culture and heritage of everyone else.

Pakistan has a lot of problems and can and should improve. The U.S did not improve overnight. Many wrongs things happened here as well, like slavery and the civil war. It took time for society here to mature and develop. The same will happen in Pakistan. People are people and people will act and react to each other. The people that have made the film are free, and the people that protested are also free. The people that protested violently are arrested. Above Pakistan, and above people the greatest responsibility has to be on our lone superpower and the policeman of this world. It needs to set its house in order before preaching to us the barbarians how to behave and what to do and what not to do. You cannot be a policeman if you have double standards and there is one law for one and another for the others.That is why I blame the U.S government the most as opposed to people and Pakistan.

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

The govt can not do anything... This is not a dictatorship. You might see hypocrisy in it, but the US govt does not have such authority. You have to be reasonable here. The social cohesion you see in not allowing people to openly criticize religion, is not so in the opinion of others. It is a false cohesion, an artificial cohesion which is bound to collapse under its own weight. Not being allowed to speak your mind OPENLY, allows the danger of making a society stagnant. Obvious wrongs are allowed to fester. People commit crimes in the guise of this holy cow that is religion and no one can challenge them because doing so risks challenging that which is considered sacred. Worse it creates a society in which people are encouraged to not think, to believe and regurgitate. Hence the reason why so many Pakistanis are unable to reconcile their revulsion for the crimes of the Taliban, and their supposed Islamic credentials.

There is more hypocrisy in a state which forces a particular belief system, then one that allows people to think for themselves.

Regress and progress are relative terms. It depends on where you stand. To those living in the past, a society regressing 100 years is making progress, but to those looking to the future, society going anywhere other then forward is going to be regressive.

The government can and should do something. There is no absolute freedom of speech or expression. This freedom is qualified, even in the U.S. The people that wanted to protest at the funerals of the soldiers were banned and laws were enacted to stop them protesting at the funerals. Denying the holocaust is a crime in some countries. There is nothing wrong with trying to integrate the various strands of society. Having respect for each other is not stagnating but strengthening the nation. If this was happening in any other country, where some people were trying to offend, ridicule and upset their own citizens than we all would expect that government to take action.

[arshad5]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

You have a superiority complex, and need to prove yourselves by burning down your own homes. Good job.

I don't burn down my house and I have no need to burn it down and BTW since when did you start caring about my house. If you cared so much about not burning houses then you would not be so gung ho about wars. Since you don't care about anyone else, do you know how many U.S soldiers have died and how many have been maimed for life? All because your leaders think that wars are a Hollywood movie. Recently I met a mother of a soldier who lost both legs in Afghanistan at the age of 25.....do you know what that mother is going through and how difficult her sons life is going to be? Soldiers think that they will be seen as liberators and welcomed. No soldier going abroad expects to be coming back in a body bag or crippled...but your leaders should know better. I just hope they don't start another war anytime soon.

[psyah]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Those who dont believe in freedom of speech just SHUT UP. just listen to what i say and dont talk. You have right to remain silent for rest of your life. :ASA:

Peace kaka_in_usa

Thus you present the dilemma ... For those who believe in freedom of speech then they must accept the speech of those who say that speech should not be free ... Because they would be hypocritical to say otherwise.

However, those who argue for controlled speech are consistent.

The next question to answer is what can we all agree on is the type of speech that should be curtailed and what type of speech should not.

[diwana]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

@Med911

Learn to ignore stupidity. Its a very very simple point. DOGS will bark, that is their nature. When you bark back at a dog, then it YOU, not THEY who are considered mad, and it YOU who is then considered idiotic and “retarded.”

A HUMAN being will care when something is worthy of being cared about, a STUPID human being will care when it is NOT worth caring about. Who is stupider, the people who made the video, or those responding t them. Think about this.

Merc made an excellent point. The people making this movie are Dogs, but who is their right mind would think that a barking dog is worth reponding too? If you know someone is taling bakwas, and they have no reason, WHY WHY WHY would you argue with them??!?!? Nothing retarded about that!

You and some others have been wrong all the way here when used the analogy of barking back.

The reality is no one is barking back. Got it. Take a deep breath and read again.

**No one is barking back.

From one end of s**howing remorse to other end of protesting (even if violent protest) does not equate to barking back. It is wrong to have violent protests or use wrong means to hurt anyone on this issue and that’s just common sense.

If someone makes an equally ridiculous and hateful movie against the religion of the culprits then you might say it is barking back. Muslims do not do that and can never do. Even the most evil so called “Muslims” have not done anything to degrade Christianity or Judaism prophets.

Hence, Muslims cannot ‘bark’ back.

Now get off the high horses and quit using wrong example please.

Also, you and others are trying to divert the criticism towards a insignificant minority as if the vast majority is doing the violent protests.
Height of …whatever. Never mind.