According to Abrahamic religions everything is preordained by God. If everything is preordained than how come we have free will? Arent those 2 things diametrically opposite of each other? Take for example the concept of sin. I have free will to commit a sin (its my free will), but if everything is preordained than how can I have free will & if I don’t have free will than how can I be responsible for committing a sin which was preordained?
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
Interesting question. I have always thought of life as the start and end being pre-determined the middle bits perhaps, but most of your journey is up to you.
Here is where I start to sound like a retro geek… but if anyone can remember 80’s Pakistan there was this rage back then when we had these adventure books come out where the plot was made up of individual paragraphs and you had to make the right choices to complete the book properly… I think life is very much like one of those adventure books.
If anyone remembers them that is… I wonder if I can get any these days… There were so many! I remember so many genres from romance, fantasy, adventure, sci-fi, historical… aaaw man it was like the peak of litrature 
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
Exactly! There's no such thing as free will.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
someone tried to explain this to me when I had posed the very same question......
there are certain rules/laws that have been determined and set in place.....(e.g. laws of physics, etc.)
many other things have not been preordained and we have been given free will to make choices.
our choices determine the outcome based on the preset, basic laws.
we will be judged on our choices and the intentions behind those choices.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
It's very simple actually. Allah is the All-knowing. If you understand that, you will understand everything about predestination and free will. Did He know where, when, how you would be born? Yes. Does He know where, when, how you will die? Yes. Does He know everything in-between? Yes. He knows it all. So He has it written down in a book of decree/qadr. Whatever's written in that book is not going to happen because it's written in that book... it's written in that book because it was going to happen. Makes sense? Whatever makes most sense to you, you can choose to believe in... that's free will!
I have two choices right now... to pray maghrib or not to pray maghrib... if that's not free will, I don't know what else is. If I had no choice but to pray then yes you could say there's no such thing as free will.
If it's written in the book of decree that I will miss maghrib ki namaaz on the 6th of October, 2011, that is NOT because Allah wanted me to but because Allah KNEW already what was going to happen, what I will CHOOSE to do with my choices. Say you arrive on a T-junction. Will you choose to go left or right, I don't know. But Allah knows what direction you'll choose. So if He writes down that XYZ will choose this path that is simply because He knows what you will choose to do, not because He made you do it. That book of decree will NOT be held against you on the day of judgement. Allah will not say you're going to hell because I have it written in my book. Allah will present to you YOUR book of amaal.
If we didn't have free will, we would all be angels and do only what Allah commands us to do e.g. not miss namaaz. And the God I believe in doesn't condone sin nor does He command anyone to be evil and e.g. murder another human being. Evil is simply the lack of good and deviation from what Allah wants us to be. And if you have the option of deviating from what Allah commands, you have free will. Unless you consider yourself a brainless puppet incapable of making your own decisions, you have total control over your kismat/taqdeer.
Khudi ko kar buland itna k har taqdeer se pehle
Khuda banday se ye puche bata teri razaa kya hai
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^so then how was the book of decrees written? Someone must have written it and must have seen what would happen. Free will concept will only hold true if you could change what's written in the book. The fact that you can't render what's already been written nullifies the concept of free will.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
There is no such thing as " preordained destiny", there is no such thing as "free will"
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^so then how was the book of decrees written? Someone must have written it and must have seen what would happen. Free will concept will only hold true if you could change what's written in the book. The fact that you can't render what's already been written nullifies the concept of free will.
So do you give credit to God's book of decree for all the happiness in your life right now? Do you give credit to Him for making you a successful, independent, intelligent woman that you are today? Surely, He must have meant it that way and you didn't have to do anything to achieve any of it, it was pre-written and it was going to happen whether you worked hard or not, no one could change your destiny. You aren't going to give credit to yourself that you made your life what it is today? That you worked hard and made the right decisions in life? No? Was it all God's favours, His preordained destiny for you?
I failed because it was in my kismat to fail. I will not bother working hard to get somewhere because I cannot change my kismat. I will fail no matter how much I study. Huh? Life is what YOU make it... God already knows what you're going to make of your life... He knows your every move... that is very different to planning your every move. YOU plan your moves, only God knows it even before you make the moves. Simple as that.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
So do you give credit to God's book of decree for all the happiness in your life right now? Do you give credit to Him for making you a successful, independent, intelligent woman that you are today? Surely, He must have meant it that way and you didn't have to do anything to achieve any of it, it was pre-written and it was going to happen whether you worked hard or not, no one could change your destiny. You aren't going to give credit to yourself that you made your life what it is today? That you worked hard and made the right decisions in life? No? Was it all God's favours, His preordained destiny for you?
Personally, Heck no, I thank my parents for bringing me into this world and making me a sane human being. I don't thank God. But that's just me.. How many of you wouldn't thank God first? None...
To me no such book exists. You believe in it yet you speak of free will.
[QUOTE]
I failed because it was in my kismat to fail. I will not bother working hard to get somewhere because I cannot change my kismat. I will fail no matter how much I study. Huh? Life is what YOU make it... God already knows what you're going to make of your life... He knows your every move... that is very different to planning your every move. YOU plan your moves, only God knows it even before you make the moves. Simple as that.
[/QUOTE]
YOu don't see how you are contradicting yourself? On one hand you are saying everything is pre written, then on the other hand, you want to give yourself credit for YOUR actions. If something has already been written and can't be changed, then free will cannot exist. Free will only exists if you HAVE THE POWER TO change what's written!
It's either the book of decrees or free will. They cannot coexist. It doesn't even make any sense.
Say you develop a game. You have encoded the characters to do such and such. You have placed the instructions and the rules. Characters cannot do what you haven't given them the power to do so. They cannot turn JUMP if you haven't programmed the character to jump.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
So I'm assuming you don't blame murderers and rapists and pedophiles and thieves for their actions, then?
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^DUDE, I don’t believe in GOD. Why the hell would I not blame rapists and pedophiles for their crimes? 
Nevermind. You totally didn’t get what I am saying.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
So you do believe in free will of human beings then. You actually will hold people accountable for their actions. If a criminal presents an argument that he should be let go because he didn't have any choice, God made him do it, that should be invalid to you as an atheist, right?
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^Absolutely! Point?
Free will and the book of decrees cannot coexist. It's one or the other.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
Right, now I get you. First you said free will doesn't exist, then you said no such thing as preordained destiny. That didn't make sense. They can't co-exist makes more sense. But that's not the question.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^But it is... You believe in both. How and why?
I said there's no such thing as free will because almost all religions believe in preordained destiny/predestination. You must either believe you have free will or you must believe in the book of decrees. You can't have both.
For me neither exists because there's no religious God.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
Aaap thaktay nahi ho??
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^:nahi:
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
What BBQ said makes so much sense only we need to have faith to believe this. That being said 'prayers' can change destiny. Yes everything is pre-written but Allah also said that 'dua' can change 'taqdeer'.
The world as it is today and the changes it goes through is already predefined/preordained. The birth/death etc of all people again is pre written in the Book of Decree. However, everything in b/w is majorly left on us and we have been given signs, guidance, mind to see what is right and what is wrong and act accordingly. Surely Allah does know the course of actions but not once does He *force *it on us.
And knowing that everything is pre-written doesn't mean that humans have no free will. We do have free will, to study or not to study to lie or not to lie.
Faris bhai gave a wonderful example of 'choose your own adventure' books that used to sell alot where different stories were written but we had a choice to choose it the way we want to go through the different adventures. The writer already knew the end of the books but he left the choice of sequence that followed to us. And that is where free will comes.
And the biggest weapon we have with us are prayers and faith. And that's what keeps this world going. It's not like Allah has made us puppets. He knows what's going to happen, the choices we'd make. He even has given us a conscience and guidance to choose b/w the right and wrong so we can't say that Allah is unjust and He's playing puppets with us. Leading us on and then watching us burn in hell-fire. No He doesn't. At each step of the way, He gives us guidance and the right path yet He gives us a choice to either go for it or not.
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^Everything comes down to faith even when it doesn't make sense. Now all of a sudden, preordained destiny can be changed with our Duas.
:D I quit..
Re: Free will vs preordained destiny
^Everything comes down to faith even when it doesn't make sense. Now all of a sudden, preordained destiny can be changed with our Duas.
:D I quit..
Ughhhh...see you are not getting it. Pre-ordained in terms of the laws of physics, the universe, the climatic changes, the earth, the birth ,death of a certain person. BUT for everything in b/w we have a choice. Allah might know our choices but He isn't forcing it on us. And if we pray and repent then He is Merciful and He forgives us and can change anything if He pleases.
Anyway I am too tired to debate on this. :(