Re: Foundation of MQM
One of the best posts I have seen in a long time on these forums. Well done Aalsi. :k:
Re: Foundation of MQM
ah well spock, i'll let you live in suspense whether or not you'd lose that bet.
okay, so you say he used to be a cab driver and zia asked him to come back to Pakistan. Seems to be the contention SHOULD be on whether or not zia asked him to come back, since that was the focus of the thread. The whole cabbie thing was a distraction IMO, and anyone spending time arguing that he didnt drive cabs has the same motivation and bias as someone who desperately wants to prove that he did.
but okay.
what makes you think i dislike cricketers or farmers? i was listing the professions of other prominent politicians, which include amongst others: playing cricket, zamindaari, owning factories or lands. point was, driving taxies or any other blue collar work is just a valid background as any of these. if the point Im making that taxi driving is as valid as playing cricket, or being a chaudry (in the landowning sense) surely you cant make the leap of logic that I view those negatively (unless you consider taxi driving a negative :) )
i know anyone can edit wikipedia, therefore I suggest that you edit it to say only your chokidaar or someone with chaudry in their names can be referred as chaudry, and the word is never to be used to connote a vocation.
Re: Foundation of MQM
^ understood but you could have used the literal word than using a 'zaat', and I assure you I am no offended as I am not a chaudhry, and I am sure you didnt have any intention of doing so, I was just pulling your leg just like how you pulled mine with me disliking cab drivers....
As for the point about zia bringing him back, the whole thing makes sense, otherwise how else can a cabbie come back and become a party head of a powerful mafia, he was obviously given alot of support by the 'agencies' which later haunted him.
Re: Foundation of MQM
maybe. talk to the average karachiite though, and he tends to have a favourable opinions of MQM. and hold a snap poll of muhajirs and the likely vote is going to go to MQM. if the agencies created it, they may have tapped into a groundswell of ethnic issues, but the ethnic issues were there to be tapped into.
Re: Foundation of MQM
maybe. talk to the average karachiite though, and he tends to have a favourable opinions of MQM. and hold a snap poll of muhajirs and the likely vote is going to go to MQM. if the agencies created it, they may have tapped into a groundswell of ethnic issues, but the ethnic issues were there to be tapped into.
Thats debatable (the popularity i.e.), because all the non-mohajirs hate the mqm, its a fact... Amongst the mohajirs, there all sorts of views, there are those that support them, those that hate them due to various reasons, and those that are forced to vote for them, by force...
Re: Foundation of MQM
most of Karachi is Muhajir, i believe the figure was something like 10 million out of 14? Amongst Muhajirs, thats my experience anyway. They dont like MQM's goonery, but feel theres no better option to protect them against other parties that they feel either have an ethnic bias against them, or no real relevance in the politics of Karachi.
when I say poll I mean the 100 or so Karachi people I know. about 90 percent would vote for MQM.
the forced voting bit is a bit of bollocks. i've voted in karachi, in both clifton and in shah faisal colony (very disparate areas, economically), and never once voted for MQM. What does happen is people's votes getting casted for them and them being informed later, but people I know whov had that done to them would definitely have voted MQM anyway.
if it were forced, then MQM's votebank wouldnt have been hurt in the last elections by sections of the memon community being radicalized by 9/11 and afghanistan war, and voting for rightwing parties.
Re: Foundation of MQM
dramatic club!
Re: Foundation of MQM
most of Karachi is Muhajir, i believe the figure was something like 10 million out of 14? Amongst Muhajirs, thats my experience anyway. They dont like MQM's goonery, but feel theres no better option to protect them against other parties that they feel either have an ethnic bias against them, or no real relevance in the politics of Karachi.
Well, that is a totally different topic and we can discuss this in another thread, but the foundation of the party was just like how Farid mentioned it was... It was created by Zia-ul-Haq to counter the power of the peepliyaz (ppp) in the 80s. It was clearly formed on ethnic lines, and it was on these very ethnic principles that the party continues to indulge in extortion, murder etc...
Re: Foundation of MQM
okay, fair enough
Re: Foundation of MQM
As for the point about zia bringing him back, the whole thing makes sense, otherwise how else can a cabbie come back and become a party head of a powerful mafia, he was obviously given alot of support by the 'agencies' which later haunted him.
I don't find it hard to imagine that he could come back and quickly make a large political movement. The ground reality is that by the 80s Karachi's Muhajir community had become disillusioned with the religious parties that they traditionally supported. The religious parties only maintained Muhajir support because the other political parties were viewed as being dominated by ethnic groups that were trying to limit the Muhajir community.
Altaf Hussain, in other words, was able to offer something new that a lot of people in Karachi wanted. An ethnically focused political party catering exclusively (at the time) to the Muhajir community.
Sindhis had the PPP to struggle for them. Punjabis had the PML. The Jamaat-i-Islam tried to struggle for all Pakistanis. The Muhajirs had no party for themselves.... they would have backed anyone from their community who set about to make a new party for them.
Re: Foundation of MQM
^ yeah but not anyone can make a party out of thin air... just because ure from a clan doesnt mean youre a born leader... dont u ever wonder how mqm got all the firepower/arms in the 80s?
Re: Foundation of MQM
^ yeah but not anyone can make a party out of thin air... just because ure from a clan doesnt mean youre a born leader... dont u ever wonder how mqm got all the firepower/arms in the 80s?
If you look at the sheer devotion that Altaf Hussain has amongst his supporters - that's not something that guns and money gets you. It's the raw adulation that charisma gets you, much as how Hitler was a canny politicial who knew how to use his innate charisma to get practically hero worshipped by his people to the end.
A small number of humans have the type of charisma you need to get people to follow you with almost complete devotion. Hitler had it, Mussolini had it, Charles De Gaul had it, Altaf has it, Benazir has it, Ataturk had it. For all his evil, Altaf has the gift of being able to rouse his people like no other politician his community ever had.
Altaf might have just been a taxi driver. But Hitler was just a fairly talentless painter, until he found a calling that he was genuinely talented at. So did Altaf.
Re: Foundation of MQM
Im sorry but I dont think 'Altaf' has any charisma in him, he looks like a clown in his tamasha rallies and sounds like one too... Maybe you find him charismatic, but I am sure most people dont... You are also amongst those that will call him an angel too, which you indirectly said by denying the part about arms and guns...
Re: Foundation of MQM
Im sorry but I dont think 'Altaf' has any charisma in him, he looks like a clown in his tamasha rallies and sounds like one too... Maybe you find him charismatic, but I am sure most people dont... You are also amongst those that will call him an angel too, which you indirectly said by denying the part about arms and guns...
So you think his entire support base is coerced or bribed? Speak to anyone who hates him but has been to an MQM rally, and what will stand out and scare them the most is just how much his supporters get downright entranced by him and hang on his every word.
Re: Foundation of MQM
And I am sure you are entranced too... Even Musharraf gets a few thousand people in his silly rallies thanks to the chaudhry brothers offering rupiya and bus di ride to islamabad, doesnt mean that hes popular...
Re: Foundation of MQM
At the time MQM came to prominance in early 80s, several other Muhajir ethnic organizations also had come into being. Muhajir Ittehad Tehrik was another one that I could remember off hand. So there were/are genuine ethnic tensions and greivances in the society that MQM tapped into. It was more popular and successful than others because of speeches and charisma of Altaf Hussain. Another appeal he had at the time was his body guards and their guns. In the ethnic riots of early 80s MQM gained more popularity as it was the only group that came across as prepared enough (in the post Afghan war free-for-all gun culture) to tackle the ground realities (no security provided by government). Whether Altaf Hussain got his guns, his body guards, his contacts with GM Syed, etc. on his own or with government's help, we don't know.
For conspiracy theorists, the timing of propping up of these Muhajir organizations and the insecurity created by organized attacks and massacres of entire localities and the government's apathy towards that climate is enough as a proof. I personally would like to believe that it was not a conspiracy. I suer hope all those people were not killed, homes and lives destroyed just to create an atmosphere of fear by ISI where groups like MQM would succeed. MQM is still popular because the ground realities have not changed much since that time.
Re: Foundation of MQM
There is no objection if 1000% muhajir vote for MQM or AH. Suppose if same thing is done by Sindhis, Punjabis, Pakhtoons and Balochis, you guys have a problem. Other thing wich is absolutely uncalled for is terrorising people who oppose AH. Who is responsible for 12th May Carnage?, had these been all Muhajir, you would call a Hitler killing 6 million jews. The atomosphere of terror and battakhori still continues, supported by Muhjirs, according to your theory, which I don't believe.
Re: Foundation of MQM
^ True, alot of the pro-govt people are ok with Musharraf rigging the elections just beause they fear BB or Nawaz will win just because they enjoy support... Well, in those lines, the MQM shouldnt win any elections either, for they have been nothing but disaster for Karachi's security and image... Karachi could have been an amazing city had those events not taken place, starting in the 80s...
Re: Foundation of MQM
Yeah, Karachi would have been an amazing city with jihadis running around with headless corpses everywhere if it weren't for the MQM.
Re: Foundation of MQM
And I am sure you are entranced too... Even Musharraf gets a few thousand people in his silly rallies thanks to the chaudhry brothers offering rupiya and bus di ride to islamabad, doesnt mean that hes popular...
You are just pushing yourself into a corner.