I was reading the Hisbah bill thread and it seems like Islamic law requires the state to make sure evryone goes to the Mosque, is this an Islamic rule? Did our Prophet :saw: or his first four caliphas do that during their reign??
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
There's no compulsion in religion.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
There are a lot of aspects of the Hisbah Bill which are out of whack. And its mostly unfounded. And mostly instated with bad intentions.
I'm sorry, but real religious people do not shove down their believes down the throats of others. They're just not that insecure.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
During the prophet:saw: time, the main difference between a muslim and non-muslim was the SALAH… (hence, the famous hadeeth) anyone who would not pray was considered out of Islam and that is a fact.. accept it or not…
There was a reason why even those who were hypocrites (as their identities were revealed to Prophet:saw: ) always kept theirselves present at the time of Salah.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
And I think the call to prayer (Adhaan) is already forcing people of the faith to come to mosque
**ﻩﻮﻠﺼﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﻋ ﻰﺣ
ﺡﻼﻔﻟﺍ ﻰﻠﻋ ﻰﺣ **
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
i hope u know wat ur talking abt 
and by ur second para ur sayin SAUDI GOVT ISNT THAT RELIGIOUS ??? coz when u start doing hijab u wud have to wait 4-5 xtra yrs for shaadi lol
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
thank you .. jazakAllah 
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
Woh waqt aur tha, abhi ka waqt aur hai.
You can't punish people for not reading namaz, when parts of the constitution are UnIslamic, when people are acting in UnIslamic and unethical ways other than not reading namaz, where there is no accountability, where the judicial system doesn't do its job (it operates on rishwatay), etc etc etc.
First you have to fix the big rules FIRST. The most IMPORTANT rules.
Then you can trickle down to these issues.
If you attack small issues first, then I see it as shoving down your thinking down other people's throats. Because frankly, the MMA had plenty of opportunity to bring about a good social change, and they didn't.
Swiping down some film posters and burning videos is not gonna cleanse society, and its not going to help except make sexually-frustrated males even more frustrated.
You wanna help get rid of the frustration the average man feels? Then instead of forcing him to go pray, why don't you provide him a halaal job? You give him the opportunity to be religious, and he'll BE MORE LIKELY to be more religious, aur woh bhi out of his own heart. Not cuz he's going to be belted if he didn't come to zuhar prayers.
Growing opium and selling drugs...that's not halaal. And that's what NWFP is known for, sorry to say.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
I got it:
Uss waqt kaa Islam kuch aur thaa, aaj kul kaa kuch aur hai
Imaan is coming from incentive of getting job and getting rid of harships than realizing some commands of the Almighty.. 
It’s better to read & understand ayaahs about hardships and why they are there than focusing on other things.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
Nope, not at all. Back then, Islamic state was established and leadership was good, and infrastructure was there to point out these basic finer points during a namaaz episode.
Now, its not.
Now if you tell someone - shut down your business and go pray - the man/woman is going to look at you like you've lost it and ask you why don't you be on your pretty way because they have customers and business to look after, and if this is the case, why don't you pay them for a good hour's worth of work gone down the drain?
The Rasul didn't start out from scratch by saying - hey you HAVE to pray. In fact, he started out with basic human rights and how they were being violated. That's why the first converts were mostly slaves, women, etc.
If the Rasul were here today, he would again be starting from scratch, and the first thing he would do would probably not tell everyone to go to the masjid. The first thing he would do is try to get everyone to understand one basic thing that most Pakistanis don't get thru their thick skulls.
"Treat everyone with respect - don't hurt anyone".
How many Pakis actually obey that? Really? Laws, etc aside? How often do you see one Pakistani being good to everyone around them? Neighbors, co-workers, family et al?
Very small number.
This was the Prophet's own approach AQ - and if you chose to bypass that approach and bring in Islam ... it wont work. If there was another way to do it, then the PRophet would have done it another way. The Prophet didn't pop out and start asking for Hibah Bills to be passed. He worked by winning people's hearts first.
Has teh MMA done that? NO.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
Woah wait - so are you saying that these Pathans should be going thru economic hardship?
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
PCG: The salah was made farz in 2nd Hijrah.. that's 15 years after the annoucnement of prophethood...
It's not that the command of salah is not there right now... and we have to wait before getting it revealed again.
what does praying salah have anything to do with normal day life... It's fardh so be it.... it's fardh on EVERYONE... from rich to poor to handicapped to ill person. There are no excuse of it. It is as simple as it is. Absence of Islamic welfare sate only guarantees the cancellation of Islamic Judiciary system not Salah.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
I think you got it wrong. What I said was that not praying on the excuse of economic hardships is rather not allowed.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
have you read in Quran that if Salah is offered in true sense, it helps you do all that? tell me if you did not.. I will as usual come up with a so-called quranic reference which many here are allergic to anyway
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
Its absolutely not an excuse, and I never said it was.
What I'm saying is descriptive in terms of the trend that you actually see.
In economic hardship, what happens is one of two things. Either a person turns towards religion and is so gullible to believe anything that will boost his confidence (ex. if he bombs innocent women and children he'll go to heaven and get hoors and a garden to tend)
or he/she will turn towards vice to make easy money.
The latter individual is hard to bring back to the religion, and if you force them to obey Islam, they're going to get even more rebellious and cause trouble. They might even do Islam more damage by covering up their ghattiya habits with the guise of Islam. (ex. guys running around with beards saying Allah Hu Akhbar etc, but are meanwhile taking rishwatay etc on the side).
The first individual is pretty much going to operate by chance. Depending on whose hands they fall in, will determine the path they take. If they fall into honest hands, then great. How many of those are in Pakistan to begin with?
If they fall into hands of people trying to misuse and manipulate people to do bad things in the name of Islam, then well, that's misfortune on their part.
I don't think that shutting down businesses in the afternoon for prayers, etc, is a bad thing. But it has a lot of potential to be abused.
What happens to non-muslims? They shut down their businesses too? You think they're gonna be happy with that, or that's justifiable?
What happens to people who for whatever reason prefer to read in the comfort of their own homes? Are they going to be lashed for not reading in a masjid?
What happens to the individual who is inwardly not wanting to be religious? You think you're gonna win him/her over by FORCING them to go to prayers? Isn't that gonna make them more rebellious/against Islam?
If you force people to go to namaz, vs. if you give them the OPPORTUNITY to go read namaz by giving them some economic relief so that they can say "okay, business today is good, I'll go do prayers"...which way will win more people to Islam?
You cannot say that every individual in NWFP is a muslim, even those that call themselves muslim. If all Pakistanis were really muslim, then Pakistan wouldn't be a gutter country that it is.
There is NO RECORD in history of the Rasul setting up a police that went around making sure everyone was at prayers. When the empire expanded, again, there was no such police.
Rather people tended to know who went for namaz regularly and who didn't. More respect was given to those who practiced their religion well.
Today, unfortunately, you can't tell if a person is a good muslim by looking at whether they are 5-times namaazi. I've met plenty of screwballs who read namaz regularly.
Therefore, forcing people to read namaz wont help. Rather help them economically to put some food in their stomachs. Then they will listen to you later when you tell them about how Islam you should do this, and how in Islam you should do that. People will listen to you if you show that your primary concern is their basic rights and living condition.
If you don't give me pure water to drink, and I'm drinking water that is mixed with your and my own feces...then do you think I'm gonna give a hoot about this policy or that? No. First clean up my water, and then we'll talk about Islam this and Islam that.
And the reasoning is simple - if you really care about my religious welfare, then you will also care about my physical welfare, for my physical welfare is tied up in my religious welfare. Deen and duniya saath saath, dhimaak aur jism saath saath.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
It's all about Asbaab than paying thanks to Musabbib-ul-Asbab. Innit? :)
Reh Gayee Rasm-e-AzaaN, Rooh-e-Bilaali naa rahi
Falsafa reh gayaa, Talqeen-e-Ghazaali naa rahi
I do not see any point in indulging in an argument which is not going to change anything anyway.
I've stated my point of view and you have stated yours.
Thanks for all the logical explanation.
Salah is after all a command anyway.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
And like I said, Hisbah Bill has massive faults to it. Fine, they want you to read prayer. Okay. What about all the other clauses. Its posted in political forum - you can take a look at it.
Giving mohtasibs absolute power?? That is Islamic? Making it hard to contest them if you feel they did something wrong? That's Islamic?
No sir, these are all unIslamic. Very unIslamic.
You can throw in a few Islamic clauses into your Bill, but its not going to work if the rest of the clauses are not founded on Quran/Sunnah and are actually external to Quran/Sunnah and are actually contradictory to Quran/Sunnah.
If you wish to argue this further, sure, you can post Quranic ayahs about the benefits of namaz. Woh tho mujhe bhi patha hai.
But that's not the issue. The issue is - does the state have the RIGHT to set up a POLICE FORCE that has a specific duty to make sure everyone is reading namaz at the allotted time?
No. This never happened in the Prophet's time - or even the Caliph's time. If you know of such a police force, then do post articles about it.
This is very different from punishing someone who does not read namaz.
You can always have the occasional case of a neighbor or family member ratting someone out by saying "falaan falaan doesn't believe in reading namaz and never does it". Then you can try that person in court as a hypocrite/disbeliever and give him/her the status of non-muslim and work accordingly to that.
But having a police force that MONITORS every individual...that's going pretty Nazi-Taliban style.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
I dunno what Hisbah Bill is and frankly I dun care as well..
As I have said earlier, if Hisbah Bill is implemented so that it can be used to **Encourage **people and NOT force them, then that is very much Islamic otherwise it kills the whole purpose anyway..
as for non-muslim businesses, if Hisbah bill does not take care of that issue then it's a faulty bill to say the least.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
Then why are you in this thread if you don't know or care what the Hisbah Bill is? That's what this thread is about - the implications of it, and whether its Islamic or not.
Now after wasting like so much of my time, you come to the actual point and admit that force is not permitted. That's what the original poster was asking to begin with!
You mullahs take the LONGEST TIME to get to the point, I swear. And you don't come to it on your own, you have to be cornered into giving a direct answer to the question.
Re: Forcing people into going to the Masjid
Yes but I was suggesting that Encouragement is what is permitted.. and that’s what Hisbah Bill should be.. but I dun care what’s in it if it is all about forcing… poor PCG lost 15 minutes…
