Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

[NameInUse]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@Sadiyah

It is not incumbent upon non-Muslims to come into the fold of Islam. Yes, the non-Muslims were made to pay jizyah and in return their lives and property were protected. Such is the Islamic law. I don't see how it makes Islam an unpeaceful religion by any means.

It is not incumbent upon the non-Muslim to convert, but then you have to pay extortion. If you pay the extortion, then you are "protected", not from theives but from the government. Sort of like the way the mafia "protects" businesses that pay extortion, of course the protection if from the mafia.
Pray tell, what happens if the person cannot pay the extortion?

@Sadiyah

Sure Palestinians could live comfortably and peacefully, but the way they are treated by their next door neighbours wouldn't vouch for it. To the best of my knowledge, Palestinians have been living in that area for a very long time and it was mainly after WWII that the outsiders were placed in the region and Palestinians were stripped off their property. Also keep in mind that none of us propagate the violence that takes place in Palestine.

How are they treated? Are they being asked to pay "protection"? Are they being forced to convert or die? Where are they being stripped of their property? If anything, Israel has shown a propensity to giving up land it conquered in war. Mind you, the Islamic Caliph also conqured and forced his laws upon the conquered...so why the double standards?

@Sadiyah

Given that Islam has laws and regulations, Muslims in general would prefer to live under the rule of a Muslim government. It makes it easier for Muslims to practice their faith properly.

Also, how willing are you to have rulers of other faiths rule your land and your people? Would that be acceptable to you folks? Would you willingly and open-heartedly accept it? You make it sound as if Muslims nowadays are detesting the countries they're living under. If it's about Muslims wanting to have Islamic law (i.e. family law and the like) in non-Islamic countries, then other faiths have also been granted such rights; however, Muslims have been held back. Heck, even under the Islamic rule, non-Muslims are free to refer to their own religious courts, so long as they don't violate any major Islamic laws.

So Muslims want to live under a "Islamic" government because it is easier for them. Who cares what the the kaffirs want, even if they out number the Muslims. Also, who cares if the Muslim laws are foreign to the natives..they can either convert, pay extortion, or die.

I live in the US. India has a Sikh ruler. I don't get your point!

@Sadiyah

As for the mughal rulers, I'm not too knowledgeable about them. From what I can remember they became corrupt shortly after. I don't know if they were initially the proper Muslim rulers to begin with.

It'd be much appreciated if you folks could refrain from bashing Islam. Some of you have really made a point to come here and do nothing, but talk trash about Islam, while completely being oblivious of what your own folks may be doing or what your faith may be preaching.

The way many of you speak of Islam is as if you're all scholars and experts and know Islam inside out.

Corrupt? The hardline view is that they were apostates. They allowed the kaffirs too much latitude.
I am not a scholar on Islam and I don't claim to be. I am not bashing Islam. I am expressing views on conquest and forced conversion.

[Sadiyah]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@NameInUse

It is not incumbent upon the non-Muslim to convert, but then you have to pay extortion. If you pay the extortion, then you are "protected", not from theives but from the government. Sort of like the way the mafia "protects" businesses that pay extortion, of course the protection if from the mafia. Pray tell, what happens if the person cannot pay the extortion?

Err... yes, they were protected from theives and not just the government. I'm sure they don't get killed on spot because they don't have the money to pay. Since you're so sure that they met bad treatment, please provide some evidence for it.

[quote]
How are they treated? Are they being asked to pay "protection"? Are they being forced to convert or die? Where are they being stripped of their property? If anything, Israel has shown a propensity to giving up land it conquered in war. Mind you, the Islamic Caliph also conqured and forced his laws upon the conquered...so why the double standards?
[/quote]

How are they treated? They are bombed, killed, raped, and sodomized everyday! I guess it is all justified because Muslims happen to be the victims. Under the Islamic caliphate things weren't even half as bad as they are now. I don't see how snatching the land from Palestinians after WWII, limiting them to a certain piece of land that gets bombarded all the time anyway, and by holding back the funds to run their country is any indication of goodness from their neighbours.

[quote]
So Muslims want to live under a "Islamic" government because it is easier for them. Who cares what the the kaffirs want, even if they out number the Muslims. Also, who cares if the Muslim laws are foreign to the natives..they can either convert, pay extortion, or die.

I live in the US. India has a Sikh ruler. I don't get your point!
[/quote]

I was referring to the so-called Muslim countries having an Islamic government when I mentioned how Muslims would prefer to live under Islamic rule than in other nations.

Don't forget what your own people have done to Muslims isn't exactly very nice and peaceful either. Remember the Gujrat massacre? Remember how the railway eventually fessed up that it was a technical fault and not a doing of Muslims?

[quote]
Corrupt? The hardline view is that they were apostates. They allowed the kaffirs too much latitude.
I am not a scholar on Islam and I don't claim to be. I am not bashing Islam. I am expressing views on conquest and forced conversion.
[/quote]

If you aren't a scholar on Islam then you might want to be careful. Yes, express your views all you want, but make sure it's based on facts rather than the ignorance of Muslims.

I'd like to leave it at that, as I'm on a tight schedule.

[deedawar]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@nicols_john

Muslims should not be apologists to their faith.............end?

Look who is talking! the one who perhaps read few books on islam and wants to become the leader/saviour and advisor to muslims!

My dear it is true that muslims should not be apologetic but the reason is not what you came up in your head. the reason is that Muslims do know that islam is intrinsically not about doing ANY evil act and hence no need to be apologetic. islam taught few great things and many good things to the world including equality among human being and justice etc.

Its not the place for me to detail all of the greatness of Islam but I would say that about Abu bakar (RAA) your comments show your limited and hate spreading knowledge. Abu Bakar (RAA) was a wise and calm person and most of the lands were conquered after his Khilaafat.

Please read about Islam and its history before wasting your time in typing or trying to send your two cents (literally!).

[Das_Reich]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@picoico

What the Prophet (saw) taught us was that absolute pacifism is stupid in the face of certain death. If that makes us militant in the eyes of muslim-hating Kafirs, then so be it…

:k: :k:

[Das_Reich]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@syedpk

Only the Ullemas and saints of Islam did the right thing and spread Islam to every part of Indian subcontinent.They were all peace loving thats why many indians converted to islam.Obviously they didnot spread Islam by sword otherwise the whole india would have been muslim and the 450 million plus muslims living in the indian subcontinent would have reverted to their old religions.

.
Exactly the reverence the local populations have for them to this day proves that
Many companions during the pious caliphate were also conquerers as well as preachers
obviously the later dynasties were interested in worldly gains and cared little for spreading the faith but this phenomena is not unique to islam,many Christian,Jewish and Hindu kings did exactly the same thing

[system]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

Check this article from Friday Times.

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/page6B.shtml

(Learning through Facts

Farrukh Saleem
Excerpts:

(March 4-8, 2001: Taliban soldiers using antiaircraft weapons, tanks and explosives blew up the ‘Standing Buddhas’. Following the destruction, Maulana Qudratullah Jamal, the Taliban’s Minister of Information, announced the sacrifice of 100 cows.)

(Not a single Buddhist monk around the world issued any edict, decree or command for the 708 million Buddhists to avenge the destruction of ‘Standing Buddhas’)

(There is not a single Buddhist either in Afghanistan or in Denmark but there are 390 million Buddhists in China, 90 million in Japan, 62 million in Thailand, 8 million in India, 2 million in Indonesia, 3 million in the United States, 700,000 in Bangladesh, 500,000 in France, 380,000 in Australia and 300,000 in Canada. All put together, world Buddhist population stands at 708 million or 11 percent of humanity.

Interestingly, not a single Buddhist monk around the world issued any edict, decree or command for the 708 million Buddhists to avenge the destruction of ‘Standing Buddhas’. Not a single Buddhist killed another human being or burnt an embassy)

(Next fact. There are 213 million Muslims in Indonesia, 156 million in Pakistan, 144 million in India and 127 million in Bangladesh. All put together, world Muslim population stands at 1.4 billion or 23 percent of humanity.

Collectively, a total of 1.4 billion Muslims, 23 percent of humanity, produce less than 5 percent of global GDP. Even more worrying, GDP of Muslim countries as a percent of global GDP is declining over time. To be certain, 6 out 10 Muslims cannot read or write (of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate).)

So, we are not talking just about conversion that is a personal choice in western nations, even in India (except when it comes to Islam and involves another religion; then it is no more personal) but a matter of honor, lack of intellectual integrity to see conversion as a personal choice.

[armughal]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

^ lame figures....
i think the percentage of budhists in the world is no more than 6-7%....

i think the author here has merged together the aethists and other smaller religions together with budhists to inflate the number of budhists in china....

friday times is well known for such stupid articles, usually spreading lies against Islam....

[NameInUse]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@Sadiyah

Err... yes, they were protected from theives and not just the government. I'm sure they don't get killed on spot because they don't have the money to pay. Since you're so sure that they met bad treatment, please provide some evidence for it.

Interesting. By your own standards, the non believers had to be protected from their own governments. That is exactly what the mafia does, pay up or pay in blood. Of course "failure to protect" is the same as committing the crime. Worse yet, paying extortion to be second class.

@Sadiyah

How are they treated? They are bombed, killed, raped, and sodomized everyday! I guess it is all justified because Muslims happen to be the victims. Under the Islamic caliphate things weren't even half as bad as they are now. I don't see how snatching the land from Palestinians after WWII, limiting them to a certain piece of land that gets bombarded all the time anyway, and by holding back the funds to run their country is any indication of goodness from their neighbours.

Hmm, the Israelis are sodomozing the Palestinians! What next, are you going to site the the Saudi newspaper and say that Jews like to bake with the blood of Arab children?
Again, to my thesis of Islam being militaristic, anywhere Muslims are not dominating, they are victims and the non-believers are invaders. Forget that religiously Jews have as much or more rights as the Muslims do to the "unholy" lands.
By the way, where are the suicide bombers to liberate the black Muslims of Sudan? What would do the Caliph do about that? Maybe it is the mass conversion to Christianity that is pissing the Arabs off in Sudan...perhaps that is why there have been 300,000 killed in three years. Interesting now, recently I read a new article about Muslims crying foul about black Africans enmass converting to Christianity. The writer seemd to think they were being forced....I believe differently. Atleast Christians are not coming along and calling themselves "idol smashers".

Here is a word "duplicity"!

@Sadiyah

I was referring to the so-called Muslim countries having an Islamic government when I mentioned how Muslims would prefer to live under Islamic rule than in other nations.

Don't forget what your own people have done to Muslims isn't exactly very nice and peaceful either. Remember the Gujrat massacre? Remember how the railway eventually fessed up that it was a technical fault and not a doing of Muslims?

If you aren't a scholar on Islam then you might want to be careful. Yes, express your views all you want, but make sure it's based on facts rather than the ignorance of Muslims.

I'd like to leave it at that, as I'm on a tight schedule.

You don't have to refer to the "so-called Muslim countries". How about looking at France? There are Muslims there and in Canada that want to be governed by Islamic law. Imagine that, a Christisan trying to even practice his religion in Saudi Arabia. More duplicity.

I remember the Gujrat riots very well. Are you aware of what is happening in Sudan? Fifteen times more people killed.(300,000).

I keep telling you. I'm no scholar on Islam, nor do I pretend to be, nor do I want to be. I just think that selective outrage is very unbecoming. The preception Muslims has of Islam being is a religion of peace is contra-indicated by non-believers. Perhaps to you forced conversions and destruction is a sign of piety, but to everyone else it is intolerance...be it Kerala or anywhere else.

[NameInUse]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@Das Reich

. Exactly the reverence the local populations have for them to this day proves that Many companions during the pious caliphate were also conquerers as well as preachers obviously the later dynasties were interested in worldly gains and cared little for spreading the faith but this phenomena is not unique to islam,many Christian,Jewish and Hindu kings did exactly the same thing

Don't gloss over it. Part of "conquest" is conversion. Let's call a spade a spade. Everyone did it, but let's not mince words. The Catholics in Peru high in the Andes, at one time were called the Inca. They are all Catholics now and follow their saints, but's one only needs to look at history to see how their "redemption" came about.

[cynic]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@syedpk

why was akbar "accomodating" hindus???Obviously he wanted to expand his kingdom it has nothing to do with Islam.Muslims condemn Akbar because he introduced deen e illahi which was just to please him and was defaming Islam.I gave this example before in another thread but you guys keep on repeating the same so I think I have to repeat it.The Reincarnated Sain baba who has followers all over andhra pradesh turns out to be a pedophile will they still follow him??If someone associate him with hinduism how will the hindus react

let us not talk about pedophilia baat bari door tak chali jayegi.......and not accuse anyone without any evidence

[cynic]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@NameInUse

Don't gloss over it. Part of "conquest" is conversion. Let's call a spade a spade. Everyone did it, but let's not mince words. The Catholics in Peru high in the Andes, at one time were called the Inca. They are all Catholics now and follow their saints, but's one only needs to look at history to see how their "redemption" came about.

People like to delude oneself I say just look aroudn in this day and age how many islmaic states really allow religious freedom and here we are talking about the old days when there hardly was concet of human rights and it as free for all soceity...... don;t trust anyonejust have a look on text of court writers of mughal rulers don;t read any hindus book or anyone else's book just read their own account of what they did........ U will be hard-pressed to find an instance where a religious guru is butchered in the court of the king the way aurangjeb used to do with sikh guru

[deedawar]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

I don't know about anyone else. Pakistan allows religious freedom and self governance by non-muslims (e.g. Punchaayat). it allows reserved seats in the government and minority leaders are allowed to be part of the government.

[system]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

The fanatic’s mindset
Knowing the Enemy: Jihadist Ideology and the War on Terror by Mary Habeck

Mufti Khubiab Sahib recommends attacks on wealth and worldly possessions of Hindus as the correct strategy.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HD01Ak04.html

Abul A’la Maududi (1903-79) asserted that warfare with infidels was inexorable. His “sovereignty of God” (hakimiyyat Allah) concept heralded totalitarian regulation of Muslim personal and public activities. Today, his followers wage jihad in Kashmir “to free this ‘Islamic’ land from ‘Hindu’ domination”.

**
Jihadis place much weight on the literal words of scriptures. Citing the principle of abrogation (naskh), they demand that Christians and Jews have to accept Islam and submit to Muslim rule or die. Hindus “have only the choice of conversion or death”. (p 44)
**

[Yudishthir]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@deedawar

Pakistan allows religious freedom and self governance by non-muslims. it allows reserved seats in the government and minority leaders are allowed to be part of the government.

No it doesnt. Non-Muslims CANNOT be President, Chief-Justice and if I'm not wrong even the PM in Pakistan. Most other higher posts in the Government, and armed forces are also not for Hindus and Christians.

In Pakistan, anyone converting out of Islam is sentenced to death. You can enter Islam from another religion, but cant exit once you accept Islam.

In comparison, Dr. Abdul Kalam is India's 3rd Muslim President. India's PM is Sikh. The ruling party has a Roman Catholic head.

[quote]
Jihadis place much weight on the literal words of scriptures. Citing the principle of abrogation(naksh), they demand that Christians and Jews have to accept Islam and submit to Muslim rule or die. Hindus "have only the choice of conversion or death"
[/quote]
This comment proves the following :
Abdul A'la Maududi was never taken to a mental hospital. Poor soul.

[deedawar]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@Yudishthir

No it doesnt. ......... Christians.

Its not freedom when president has no power if he is muslim and cannot do anything to save thousands of muslims being burned while hindu minister is free to let this happen. In any other matters as well, muslim president is just a showpeice.

*Try electing/selecting a muslim PM from a winning party in India...this so called 'secularism' will be crushed by hindus the very same day! *

Its not freedom when muslims get killed if they eat cow but no one kills a non-muslim doing things against Islam such as eating pork.

Showcase secularism reveales its true face time to time in india.

What I mentioned was the freedom of religion in Pakistan which is strong and is part of its value. Just remember what Quaid Said for anyone who was Pakistani but had any religion, that person was/is Pakistani and thats all that matter.

Having said that, Pakistan was made based on Islamic ideology and nothing wrong in being truthful rather than having broken and two-faced 'secularism'.

[Yudishthir]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@deedawar

Its not freedom when president has no power if he is muslim and cannot do anything to save thousands of muslims being burned while hindu minister is free to let this happen.

a] Dr. Kalam became president in 2003, one year after the riots.
b] Dr. Kalam is the supreme commander of the armed forces.
c] Talking about executive poweres ? He ran the state of Bihar when President's rule was imposed in Bihar last year, for 5 months.

[QUOTE]
Its not freedom when muslims get killed if they eat cow but no one kills a non-muslim doing things against Islam such as eating pork.
[/QUOTE]

Eating pork is a crime punishable by law in India.

India's second richest person, top actors in Bollywood, many top cricketers, some of the richest Dawoodi Bohras in South Asia.....are all Muslims.

[deedawar]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@Yudishthir

a]in South Asia.....are all Muslims.

Eating pork in Pakistan is not punishible thats what I meant. Ever heard anyone killed beacause of that by 'mobs' in Pakistan?

Lets try getting a PM who is muslim in India. Secularism will show the real face.

There are several rich hindu families in Pakistan happy and part of the nation despite so called non-existence of secularism in Pakistan. Christians run schools/hospitals are valuable assets in Pakistan and respected. Non-muslims have played cricket for Pakistan and all this points to the fact that despite less than 5% of non-muslims in Pakistan the level of tolerance is too high for minorities compared to great minoroty in India.

No where regular people or neighbors (supposedly fellow countrymen) killed large number of minority religion citizens in Pakistan but it happened in India/bosnia/germany etc.

[syedpk]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

so what if few muslims are rich and powerful in india it is a so-called secular country.president,azeem premji and two three other businessmen, bollywood khans do they represent the 150 million muslims in india(the actual fpopulation is around 200 million)

Many hindus are rich in pakistan and powerful in pakistan.In this thread you will find names of some of them
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=211184

It is a fact that muslims are the poorest community in India.The least educated and the most persecuted community/religion in India

[rvikz]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@syedpk

so what if few muslims are rich and powerful in india it is a so-called secular country.president,azeem premji and two three other businessmen, bollywood khans do they represent the 150 million muslims in india(the actual fpopulation is around 200 million)

Many hindus are rich in pakistan and powerful in pakistan.In this thread you will find names of some of them
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=211184

It is a fact that muslims are the poorest community in India.The least educated and the most persecuted community/religion in India

do oyu mean to say they were rich before conversion and govermant took their
wealth?

[deedawar]

Re: Forced Conversions to Islam (in Kerala)

@rvikz

do oyu mean to say they were rich before conversion and govermant took their wealth?

Only a hindu-indian could come up with this sort of question to hide the fact.

Muslims ARE considered second class citizens in India..a punishment for their ancestors giving so much to contribute to the land. Few prominent do not represent the muslims as a whole.

Now, do you think muslims over 50 plus years became poor due to their own fault when they were well off prior to division.

With similar token, french blamed blacks and muslims for being poor...and society was so called secular there also.