For Desert Fox - Hinduism

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

You are relatively new to Gupshup (as am I), and there have been several threads on Hinduism. Covering Hinduism like one would cover Islam is futile - there are few metaphysical concepts that all Hindus agree on, as Hinduism is pluralistic, and dependent upon interpretation of the seer/guru. Yes, Truth is One. However, not everyone will interpret their insights of Truth the same, nor are they able to relate it absolutely, since our ability to describe the infinite supreme will only serve to add limits to it.

However, the Hindu pantheon, in my opinion, is served by a common drive to serve dharma - the righteous path. What that entails
is up to the particular dharma shastra.

My own views are Vedic in base, summarized as Advaita Vedanta, a school of the Vedanta that means “non-dual”, in the sense that the soul (Atman) and God (Brahman), are not separate dual entities. This is contrast to dvaita Vedanta, which says that the Atmah is separate but dependent upon Brahman.

Advaita Vedanta was first expounded on by Adi Shankaracharya, whose work is the oldest surviving criticisms and interpretations by a single scholar. He refers to the work of those before him, but that body of work has been lost to us. The Vedanta was further explained to us by none other than Swami Vivekananda. Whenever you see a Vivekananda Society, or a Vedanta society, they will probably be discussing the Advaita Vedanta.

So what is the Vedanta?
The Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. And it is so - you cannot make one believe that Atman and Brahman are the same. They must discover for themselves. In the meantime, they progress through the following aims:

  • Maximize pleasure, minimize pain - base, carnal pleasures are what we first want. Sex, food, stimulation - these are what we first desire. And at the end of the day, they frustrate us - they do not fulfill us, nor make us ultimately happy. The playboy at 25 may be happy, but the playboy at 50 is pathetic. So we look to the next point
  • Power, fame, money, glory - the endless pursuit of money and power is the next step along the progression. We also know that at the end of the day, an old man does not know what to do with his money. Powerful men still die. So, instead we
  • Contribute to the community (volunteer) - at the end of the day, no amount of service can prevent death. So we reevaluate.

alright, men progress along this path. We are all at different points on the path. Kamasutra? Written by a person who seeks pleasure, for people seeking pleasure. Such is the way - we each have our own path, and we will eventually fall back to spirituality - that is the truth of experience.

Now, we must realize that it may take several lifetimes to follow this path. Remember, a common Hindu belief is reincarnation, based on the Law of Karma. Each lifetime offers a new experience - a new way to discover and strengthen why we are advancing along the path.

When it comes time to reevaluate, we must look deeper. What do we really want?

  • being - we want to live. We want to live forever. Rather, we want to exist.
  • knowledge - we are curious creatures. We want to know everything. Rather, we want to know that key piece of knowledge that makes everything else simply details.
  • bliss - we want joy. happiness. infinite bliss.

This is sat-chit-anand. Infinite Being-Knowlege-Bliss. It is summarized as God-Realization, to know our true identity that Atman is Brahman.

To start the path to sat-chit-anand, we must practice the following: Non-injury, truthfulness, non-stealing, self-control, cleanliness, contentment, self-discipline, motivation. The last one is most important - motivation to follow the path of the Vedanta.

That path is called yoga. Yoga is not a single path - there are many paths that serve the various types of people there are - reflective, emotional (loving), action, scientific.

These are summarized as:

  • jnana yoga - the yoga of knowledge - study the scriptures. reflect/meditate. critique. debate. study some more. this is the shortest yet steepest path. Here you understand the body and mind are not but actors for the Atman.
  • bhakti yoga - the yoga of love - love God. Love him like a father, mother, child, friend, spouse. Repeat his name. Grow to love him through stories, myths, images. Love him as a personal God. This last one, the creation of a personal God (Ishvara) means that there will be many Gods in the stories - we all imagine God differently. Why images/idols/murtis? Like a picture of our parents hanging in the hallway, it helps us remember, focus, and pray to God.
  • karma yoga - the yoga of action - work only for God - do not work because you get rewarded, instead, work because that is what you think God asks of you. This is selfless service. Eventually, one learns to melt away the body and mind, and think only of God.
  • raja yoga - the yoga of psychoanalysis - a technique to reveal the Truth, by way of rejecting the outer world and inner world, focusing only on unity, by way of meditation.

Pick a yoga, pick a mix of them. There is so much more to spiritual metaphysical Hinduism.

2

Thanks!
but I was hoping to know more about more than one god concept. How did it originate and If your gods had enemies then why did it take so long to destroy them?
In Islam god says be and it becomes and if god says die/finish it finishes. So does that mean that your gods had people in the same rank as them?
In Islam we can prove the elephant god,monkey god and how they came into existence. but how do hindus (according to hindu holy books geeta and all)
say about mohammed, Allah and the creation of the universe, the human, science?
when you answer these I'll ask more and give you the answers to all these above!

from your muslim friend,
Desert fox

[This message has been edited by Desert fox (edited October 02, 2000).]

3

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** Thanks!
but I was hoping to know more about more than one god concept. How did it originate and If your gods had enemies then why did it take so long to destroy them? **
[/quote]

You are actually looking away from metaphysical Vedic Hinduism, as embodied in the 6 astika orthodox Brahmanical schools, and are instead trying to find out the reasons to villify a tradition that takes Hindu students in gurukuls several years to only begin to understand.

Why several Gods in the stories and myths, instead of stories and parables of humans, you ask? Why not? Why do the lessons in the struggle for good and evil have to all take place on our particular plane of existence?

You attach so much personality and action to the Supreme God, whereas I do not. Brahman does not act in this world, to make me superior to someone else based on my belief. Instead, Brahman is an intrinsic part of each and every object, person, thing. It does not act to make things be or not be, it is beyond that duality of subject and object that we perceive to be in our normal lives.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** In Islam god says be and it becomes and if god says die/finish it finishes. So does that mean that your gods had people in the same rank as them?**
[/quote]

In what sense? Did regular humans "hang out" with the Gods? not really.

You are saying that the Islamic God "says be and it becomes, and says die/finish, and it finishes". However, the action of your God becomes somewhat arbitrary - why not just make all of humanity believers from day one - why is this entire eastern tradition (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shinto, Confucious, etc.) - so completely different from your Canaanite basis? How could Noah's children stray so far from the mark so quickly?

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** In Islam we can prove the elephant god,monkey god and how they came into existence. but how do hindus (according to hindu holy books geeta and all)
say about mohammed, Allah and the creation of the universe, the human, science? **
[/quote]

This particular statement shows a severe misconception of Hinduism, the Gita especially. The Bhagavad Gita is only 740+ verses, summarizing and unifying the various Hindu concepts - Vedic Ritual, Sankhya philosophy, Bhakti/Jnana/Karma Yoga. It does not speak of mythology because that is not it's purpose. It is instead a simply treastise on dharma, on Arjuna's struggle on why he should do what he needs to do. It summarizes 108 Upanishads succinctly, whereas the Upanishads themselves delve deep into the mind and spirit of man.

4

We humans have very little understanding of the world and it's ways and about Hazrat nooh
according to Islam he was in this world about 8000-9000 B.C so of course that is about 2000-3000 years before hinduisim. Now how much can change in that time is very easy to imagine! And you never know Allah says in the Quran

WE have sent down to every nation a prophet and there is no unfortunate people who have not recived one. God is just.

So Allahs prophets could be made gods. Why not that is what happened to lots of peoples in the middle east! Let me show you how in this following extract from a muslim scholar:

After the people were shown the way of god they started by the mischif of Satan to make statues of the saints(prophets) and touch them and respect them and narrarate thier acts of bravery and constant fight against evil. So that generation died and thier sons came and went one step further than thier parents and started bowing to them out of respect and carrying them with for good luck!
so that generation also passed away and gradually people started to think these saints as god or sons of god.

so astro fan do ya get it time and the devil changed the way people think about saints and put them in place of god or gods sons or daughter.

And sooner or later the Mahdi will come and bring all the people bact to the proper faith!

Thanks now about hanging out with gods thats not what I ment I ment that they were not even powerful enough to defeat thier enemies. That is what I ment by rank.

Did your gods not fight?

5

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** We humans have very little understanding of the world and it's ways and about Hazrat nooh according to Islam he was in this world about 8000-9000 B.C so of course that is about 2000-3000 years before hinduisim. **
[/quote]

Many modern indologists will debate this point about the age of Hinduism. Suffice it to say, most available dates on Hinduism's timeline are based on British colonial historians trying to map a single Persian king's assistant to one of the pre-Mughal Indian kings.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** WE have sent down to every nation a prophet and there is no unfortunate people who have not recived one. God is just. **
[/quote]

So, let us assume that what is written in the Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, and Brahma sutra is the work of Allah's prophets. They attack spirituality in oh so many different ways than the way of the Quran. I am not convinced that Allah could possibly have sent such different messages to different people. The Quran claims that it is clear, and that there is no doubt. Trying to map some semblance of Vedanta to Islam starts making Islam unclear, and puts it in doubt.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
**
so astro fan do ya get it time and the devil changed the way people think about saints and put them in place of god or gods sons or daughter.**
[/quote]

Maybe. Maybe not. For example, I don't particularly subscribe to the notion that Rama is the son of God. But should I care if someone else does think that? Does their spirituality suffer because of it? Does their moral character, their actions in this world, the good they do - are they suddenly all worthless because they pray to what you consider simply a prophet? In the Gita, Krishna reveals himself as the whole universe/cosmos/creation and the unmanifest to Arjuna (by way of giving Arjuna divine sight). Why can't you consider such a person a God?

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
And sooner or later the Mahdi will come and bring all the people bact to the proper faith!
[/quote]

This assumes that Islam is the proper faith. There are those who would strongly disagree with you.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** Did your gods not fight? **
[/quote]

The struggle of good vs evil is chronicled in Hindu mythology, trying to teach us how to live life according to dharma. They are stories meant to impress upon the mind how people are to act by using familiar situations. What you probably read on the internet or are taught about Hinduism from anti-Hindu sources is simply the stories themselves, cutting out the "boring" parts that deal with dharma and spirituality. It becomes reduced to fights amongst the Gods. The literary sources are so much deeper and longer than most people would like to read.

6

Posted by astrofan <>

Muslims only belive that 4 books were sent by god: Taurat(to moses), Zubur(to david), Injil(to jesus) and finally the Quran(to mohammed).
we know for certain that god did not send these books(geeta ect.)to earth. can you fill me in on when these books came?
so these books are not from god. Ok so next are these books the work of the saints?
muslims don't think that becuse you are right they totally disagree. so us muslims think that these are works of men who try to fond purity and later these books are chosen as the books. By the way who wrote these books.

Posted by astrofan<<I don't particularly subscribe to the notion that Rama is the son of God. But should I care if someone else does think that? Does their spirituality suffer because of it? Does their moral character, their actions in this world, the good they do - are they suddenly all worthless because they pray to what you consider simply a prophet? In the Gita, Krishna reveals himself as the whole universe/cosmos/creation and the unmanifest to Arjuna (by way of giving Arjuna divine sight). Why can't you consider such a person a God?

because:
Who ever accepts his attributes to be an addition abandons the concept of monothisim and belives in duality(he and his attributes)
such a perso belives him to exist in parts(one for hearing,one for listening and so on).
He is Ignorant and will always try to belive some creation of his Imagination as his god and who ever does that confies him to a place or a particular level and brings god on a level with his people.

posted by astrofan<<I don't particularly subscribe to the notion that Rama is the son of God.

I said as you may read my last post I said beliving them to be GODS or sons of god I'm talking about the GOD part. right?
maybe Krishna was a prophet who was kind,brave and right and such persons can by called god my mistake right?

now you asked me a question:why cant we accepet Krishna as god I have my reasons
1. that compleately wipes out the monothist part of Islam
2.now i'll ask you a question why can't you take rama or krishna as a prophet of god?

I must thank you for explaining so politely I was thinking I'll get tonnes of gaalis and harshness from you!

7

well, let us assume, for a moment, that Krishna is God. The Gita, then, is the word of God, since he is the speaker for 700 of the 740 shlokas. However, he did not actually write down the words onto paper, much as Muhammed did not write the Quran down himself, but were written later by the Sage Veda Vyasa. Most early works are anonymous, in the sense that Hindu the Vedas are considered Shruti - that which is “heard”. The verses were passed down by memory for hundreds of years before they were written down (the original author is not important, only the message). The Upanishads and the Bhagavad Gita are considered Smitri - that which is “remembered” - they were also passed down until written down. Now - are these the words of God Himself? No - God does not write down books - that means you give the Supreme Reality attributes and consciousness which he does not have. Instead, these are insights by Vedic seers who realized the Supreme, and they intrepreted their experience and give it to us. These scriptures are divinely inspired - from which we as critical thinkers can try to grasp what each seer tried to explain, so that we can come up with our own conclusions based upon how far along we are on own paths.

The Hindu who does not maliciously attack Islam would see the Quran as a combination of Shruti and Smitri texts - Muhammed, much like our seers, meditated and found inspiration. Now, from a Hindu standpoint, Muhammed is a raja yogi - one who tried to seek insight, and found something. Swami Vivekananda argues that Muhammed, not being trained in the arts of Yoga, was unable to correctly interpret his divine inspiration, and his “revelations” are skewed because of it. From the Hindu perspective looked from the outside into the Muslim perspective, you get a completely different view.

And why is duality so bad? Maybe a dual/multiple personality is what a particular person needs to grow depending upon where he is on his own spiritual path. You must understand that Hinduism, at the end of the day says that all forms of God that we Hindus make, all but different views of the one supreme reality. Our minds are too limited to comprehend the totality of infitinity, so we add manifest form to that infiniteness, to make it easier to concentrate. We study, we meditate, and we critique our beliefs, until we can rationally and logically conclude what we see as the Truth. It is not so simple to lay down in a book as you may think. When all of our greatest seers were asked to describe the ultimate reality, they respond with silence, for they know that by describing it, they will necessarily limit it.

Back to the Vedanta - Atman is Brahman. Our essential nature (our Self/Atman), is God. Your Self is Brahman. My Self if Brahman. It is by ignorance/illusion(maya) that we do not understand this. If someone wipes away the illusion, he has realized and merged with God. He is that aspect of God that is one earth, helping us. Why is he separate from God? Why do you see duality, when the Hindu sees unity?

From a Muslim standpoint, sure, you can see him as such. From the Hindu standpoint - he was God personified. Depends how you view the Ultimate Reality. Neither is necessarily wrong.

Again, without studying the monotheism of Hinduism, you are led to believe that. You see a duality from humans and Allah. The Advaitist doesn’t - Krishna can be called God, because he knew his true nature - Atman is Brahman.

I could. Nothing stops me. Many Hindus don’t see Krishna or Rama as Gods (or sons of Gods). The original Ramayan does not particularly make the connection between Rama and “son of God”. But either way - the person who believes or doesn’t believe is still served by dharma - his own righteous path.

Actually, I thought I was still being a bit harsh (this forum does that to me). Anyways, if you get a chance, read the Gita (should only take 2 or 3 hours in an evening), and you will get a better perspective of what I’m saying. You can find a free one here:

http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset_offsite.asp?pageLoc=http://eawc.evansville.edu/anthology/gita.htm&query=&script=%2Fhelp%2Flink%5Fdirectory%2Easp

If you want an even shorter read, try the Tao Te Ching - it’s also a nice succint half-hour read that is a good lead in to Hindu philosophy.

8

Is it true that sati (widow burning) was a mis print and how did sati occur?

for this I have gotten 2 answers

  1. sati was a wife of Shiva and after her husband was mistreated by her father she burnt herslef! 2.She to be with Shiva after he wen't to the hevens burnt herself to join him.

Which is true?

posted by astrofan<>

we muslims do not think of god as human or as super human and we belive that he has no shape as I mentioned above "that would confine him to a place or shape" he is the all listening and all doing we muslims can't think of god as you said it is all beyond our knowledge. But if god has no shape we say that he is every where he is even closer to you than your viens so if he is every were than why duality where would the double go to help?

posted by astrofan<>

so there you have it the link now we say this link is because of gods prophets or other holy men who belive in the oneness of god. What do you say about this link?

Thanks hope u reply soon!

9

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** Is it true that sati (widow burning) was a mis print and how did sati occur?

for this I have gotten 2 answers

  1. sati was a wife of Shiva and after her husband was mistreated by her father she burnt herslef! 2.She to be with Shiva after he wen't to the hevens burnt herself to join him.

Which is true?**
[/quote]

Misprint of what, exactly? I am currently unaware of any wife of Shiva other than Parvati, and am unaware of any story wherein a wife of Shiva burnt herself to by with Shiva. Doesn't mean there isn't one. You would be hard pressed to find the Hindu who believes the wife should throw herself into the funeral pyre after the death of her husband. I certainly don't know any.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
**
why duality where would the double go to help? **
[/quote]

Do you believe you are God? If not, that is the duality - you are separate from God, hence non-unity. (Masooma clearly stated to me on this forum that humans are not God). Non-dualism is when your essential essence is God. The metaphor is like this: imagine an empty cup. Inside the cup is space. Outside of the cup is space. The space inside the cup is the same as the space outside the cup, it is only the cup that offers a false boundary, that separates one space from another space. In the same way, our Self is the same as Brahman - the body/mind offer a false sense of boundary from the reality outside and the reality inside.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** so there you have it the link now we say this link is because of gods prophets or other holy men who belive in the oneness of god. What do you say about this link?
**
[/quote]

I'm having trouble making sense of this statement. What exactly is the link again?

10

Posted by Astrofan<>

Can you repeat that in to word Ican understand?

Posted by Astrofan<<quote:

Originally posted by Desert fox:
so there you have it the link now we say this link is because of gods prophets or other holy men who belive in the oneness of god. What do you say about this link?

I'm having trouble making sense of this statement. What exactly is the link again?

The link between the Quran and the Hindu books you mentioned that the Quran is like some of the Hindu books In sense of sprituality I mean can that be called a link?

Can I say something you might find interesting about Hazrat nooh?

the Aztecs(you must have learned about them?)
said that yes there was A time when water came and filled the earth and everything died.
this I think is because they faintly remember about Hazrat nooh(they were polythesestic)

The viking also belive in this water filling and killing the earth!

so do the chinese and polyneasians(they started bulding boats for this reason because they wanted to be prepared!)

There must be a link some where!Right?

[This message has been edited by Desert fox (edited October 04, 2000).]

11

When referring to dualism - Islam is clearly dualistic. When you die, your soul goes to heaven or hell. Your soul is separate from God. Hence the duality - soul is separate from God. Advaita Vedanta is non-dual. The soul is not separate from God. It only appears that way, based on false boundaries of body and mind. In a sense, we are ignorant of this unity because of our perceptions.

As for the link, I believe there are a couple of reasons for this, some of which may be blasphemy for you, but what the heck:

  • If you constantly ask questions, critique, debate, reflect, and re-evaluate, then metaphysical and spiritual philosophies are bound to start making sense in all traditions
  • Maybe there was an original pagan religion upon which all others are based
  • I believe Muhammed was heavily influenced by Jewish, Christian, and Zoroastrian scholars and travelers when he conceptualized the Quran. In this sense, the Quran has similar stories simply because those the same stories that Muhammed had heard about from these travelers
  • Floods are common catastrophies to most parts of the world. It makes sense then that a flood will be part of any destruction that a religion may espouse to be part of its past

The Great Flood? The flood is a Hindu story as well.
http://www.hindunet.org/avatars/varaha/index.htm
One of the 10 avatars of Vishnu was a boar, who raised a woman (her name escapes me at the moment), out of a great flood that sinks the whole earth.

Cool, no?

12

I read all your posts & not only the above initial one.Whatever you mentioned are views,explanation,conjectures,REMUNERATIONS,all of which may be but nothing to belief as faith.If i read a ballad,or tales,or interpretation it is just that,Astory,with no historical remnent.There is no map showing where these things happened or any proof there of.
Sorry to give my unsoliceted opinion before leaving the thread.

Astrosofan-Unloading from thousands of hindu sites is just narration of stories ,which many ppl.can just for the sake of discussion refute it as FANTASY.Just b/c 1 bn. ppl. may do something repeatedly doesn’t become rational,believeable or changes the perception that it is an atavistic remnent of vesteges of primitive tribal type of worship in pre hoistoric times.

p://www.ghen.net/forum/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=womenachievement&Number=1749&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5 http://www.ghen.net/forum/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=womenachievement&Number=1749&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5

You go to sites like these & you think like a villager that evrything on the internet is legitimate,proved & substantiated!It used to be with print media too not too long ago,before we realized that biase & propoganda has no limitations of medium.

I saw you on Sulekha under the name ORIGIN,enquiring from the most rabid anti moslem &anti islam Sitaram,about url of hate mongerersweb site .I hope you are not going to use it here,b/c im here to monitor every post.

13

[quote]
Originally posted by Azad Munna:
** There is no map showing where these things happened or any proof there of.
Sorry to give my unsoliceted opinion before leaving the thread. **
[/quote]

Proof? You want to talk about fundamental proof? There is no spoon. Everything, absolutely everything around you, can be the environment made by a deceiver. The Quran, the Gita, the signs, the soul - everything - just might be in a simulation meant to deceive you. There is no spoon.

[quote]
Originally posted by Azad Munna:
** Astrosofan-Unloading from thousands of hindu sites is just narration of stories ,which many ppl.can just for the sake of discussion refute it as FANTASY.Just b/c 1 bn. ppl. may do something repeatedly doesn't become rational,believeable or changes the perception that it is an atavistic remnent of vesteges of primitive tribal type of worship in pre hoistoric times. **
[/quote]

I don't quite know how I became the brunt of this attack, but what the hey. I think the point here is that Hindus don't particularly want to throw away all the "atavistic remnants of vestiges of primitive tribal types of worhip from a prehistoric time" (how redundant is that?) Ritual helps some people focus. Hmm, you know, many of the Hindu myths are morally ambivalent in terms of storyline - they make you think. They help frame approaches to dharma.

[quote]
Originally posted by Azad Munna:
** You go to sites like these & you think like a villager that evrything on the internet is legitimate,proved & substantiated!It used to be with print media too not too long ago,before we realized that biase & propoganda has no limitations of medium. **
[/quote]

Is this pointed at me, or just to Hindus in general? And what exactly are you trying to say? The link you provided was innocuous enough - two Indian women named to top 15 best women of the web. If, for some reason, you think I take everything on the web to be the truth, you are sorely mistaken. What prompted this?

[quote]
Originally posted by Azad Munna:
*I saw you on Sulekha under the name ORIGIN,enquiring from the most rabid anti moslem &anti islam Sitaram,about url of hate mongerersweb site .I hope you are not going to use it here,b/c im here to monitor every post. *
[/quote]

Never posted to Sulekha before that. I'm impressed you cross-checked my email. Wow, I'm being stalked, I feel so proud. Someone asked for information to a Hindu hate site, and all I did was provide a link to it. Wow, I'm anti-Muslim because of it, huh?

14

Astro please make your self clear, sorry but I dont get it?

[This message has been edited by Lollypop (edited October 05, 2000).]

15

Posted by Astrofan<>

As I said before, these holy books
*Turat
*Zubur
*Injil
*Quran
are sent by god
*Turat was sent to moses leader of Judisim.
*Zubur was sent to David also a man of judisim
*Injil sent to Jesus leader of cristanity
*quran was sent to Mohammed leader of Islam

So you see all these religions are from god and if these books dont match which will?
I won't call it Influence I call it the same.

posted by astrofan<>

Maybe, but maybe all there Pagan religions are influenced by the Devil, the one who wants to lead all of mankind astry?

posted by astrofan<>

they are commen in places near the sea or river but way up near mountainious places and dry plains as far from any river? Islam says it started to rain(which causes floods)in a place so dry that cracks appered and people had to go many miles to get water(like a desert).

Posted by astrofan<>

Yes but god is not Dual he neather dies or sleeps! time does not affect him! so he is not like any human so he can't be dual!

thanks,
mind my muslim brother(azad munna) muslims get a bit heated up on these topics!

16

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
Astro please make your self clear, sorry but I dont get it?
[/quote]

Hey Lollypop, which part don't you get, so I know what to focus on?

P.S. - the part about the spoon is a reference to the movie, "The Matrix". We take gravity for granted - we see it, so it must be true. Pick up a spoon, and let it go. It falls. Therefore, gravity is a "True" Phenomena. However, what if, in reality, there was no spoon there - that it was just a trick played on the mind? Then gravity really doesn't exist - because in reality, nothing ever dropped, the mind just thought it dropped. Similarly, everything you know - the Koran, the Bible, the Gita - they could all be tricks of the mind.

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited October 06, 2000).]

17

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
**
So you see all these religions are from god and if these books dont match which will?
I won't call it Influence I call it the same.
**
[/quote]

OK, now this makes no sense (at least to me). This is what I just understood

  • God (Allah) has sent down 4 books to his prophets.
  • These 4 books, as we know them, are not in total agreement
  • Since these 4 books are not in sync, how can we ever expect any set of histories to be consistent?

My question - if God's word is never in doubt, how did us humans screw it up 3 times before preserving it right in the Quran? Why can we assume human error the first three times, and not the fourth?

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
Maybe, but maybe all there Pagan religions are influenced by the Devil, the one who wants to lead all of mankind astry?
[/quote]

So why did God so thoroughly ignore the Pagan areas of the world for so long? Why did he wait, and send all his prophets to the same area in the Middle East, when there were cultures much farther East (China/India), West (native Americans/Europe), North (Vikings/druids), and South (Africa) of the area? Is the Devil so much faster than God at convincing Pagans to do what the evil things they do? I thought God was all merciful?

While we're on the subject - do you know the story of Buddha? He was a print, and he ran away from his kingdom, after seeing that (1) sickness (2) old age and (3) death, were things that no amount of money could stop. He eventually sat down under a Bodhi tree for three days, and was visited by a Devil, who tried to tempt him back into the material world. The Buddha resisted the temptations, and understood the cycle of birth and death in the process, understood how to break out of it, and started to teach others around him about The Middle Path.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
** they are commen in places near the sea or river but way up near mountainious places and dry plains as far from any river? **
[/quote]

Hey, even deserts flood every once in a while.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
**
Yes but god is not Dual he neather dies or sleeps! time does not affect him! so he is not like any human so he can't be dual! **
[/quote]

Your conclusion is not supported by your arguments here. You say God cannot be dual because he is not like humans. While I agree that God is not dual, this is not the logical conclusion of your argument. Zeus never died or slept. Hera never died or slept. They were not human. Yet clearly, they are dual aspects of omnipotent Greek Gods. Also implicit in your argument is that humans are dual. I claim that we are not dual.

Perhaps you mean I think that Hindus think God is dual because we ascribe partners to him? Like, for example, why is there a Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva (creator, sustainer, destroyer)? Why not have just one Brahman, and be done with it? The reason is due to perception. 5 blind men walk up to an elephant. One feels his tail, and thinks it is a snake. One feels his leg, and thinks it is a tree. One feels his belly, and feels it is a wall. One feels his trunk, and thinks it is a giraffe. One feels his ears, and thinks it is a sheet. All 5 were unable to comprehend the fact that it is an elephant - they were limited to their perception. Similarly, each view of God the Hindu has is but a perception, a piece of the Ultimate Reality. We are all blind in some way or another to Brahman, so we take our perceptions, and bind them to our experiences, to create a personal view of God - an Ishta-Devta. To truly understand the nature of Brahman, one must undergo a regimen of slowly peeling away the limits of perception, and this regimen is yoga.

[quote]
Originally posted by Desert fox:
**
thanks,
mind my muslim brother(azad munna) muslims get a bit heated up on these topics!
**
[/quote]

If a Muslim wants to discuss Islam with a non-Muslim, they are gonna have to accept the fact that the non-Muslim does not think that Allah is the God, that Muhammed is his prophet, that Muhammed is his last prophet, or that the Quran is the word of God. Otherwise, these discussions will always be heated.

18

astro: you say these books don't agree

No one says that these books don't agree!

*taurat(this book is as it is but it is called the old testament)this book is now placed under other books as in terms of religious meaning!

*Zubur(now this book is more valued than the Taurat and this in not a code of law like the last one)

*Injil(this again is not a code of law and what is said by god has been alterd)

*Quran(this is a code of laws and it is sent to bring the god fearing people back and the wrongness of the books to be corrected)

Now let me inform you that north america is now almost all cristain

Ditto china (34%)

Russia(80%)

and south america too!

Allah must have known that sooner or later the world will be inter connected and to get to one place from the other will not take much time!

Two of the world's largest religions are monotheatest! and almost every country has its fair share of these religions!

so can you see god knew that the world will be inter connected so even if he did not send prophet to a people he need not worry!

How many of people have turned hindu in the last 2000 years(converted)? in Islam and cristanity lots have!

so God some how did get his word accross to every one!!!

19

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
**

No one says that these books don't agree! **
[/quote]

umm, you just said the books do not agree. You can only speculate that they did agree when they were first divined.

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
**
Now let me inform you that north america is now almost all cristain **
[/quote]

85% of North America claims Christian heritage. However, 30% believe in reincarnation. Numbers are not always what they appear to be.

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
**
Allah must have known that sooner or later the world will be inter connected and to get to one place from the other will not take much time! **
[/quote]

ummm, the world was maybe all interconnected in the last century. The world of Allah has been around for thousands of years. Your last statement is not quite correct.

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
**
Two of the world's largest religions are monotheatest! and almost every country has its fair share of these religions! **
[/quote]

no disagreement here.

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
** so can you see god knew that the world will be inter connected so even if he did not send prophet to a people he need not worry! **
[/quote]

That's a convenient excuse for conquering other countries. You are telling me it was easier for God to wait hundreds of years to spread Islam to the whole world instead of simply sending prophets to other parts of the world? That sure is inconvenient for those cultures who had to wait. Or, why not wait for the world to be interconnected, and then send a prophet, so that the whole world can hear his message while he was alive?

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
How many of people have turned hindu in the last 2000 years(converted)? in Islam and cristanity lots have!
[/quote]

Hindus do not actively convert people, that is not the way Hinduism works. Muslims and Christians do, and are commanded to convert others by their "prophet". The Vatican puts out a statement that all other religions cannot possibly be equal to or better than Catholicism. Clearly, Islam thinks the same thing about itself. Your Christian friends are at odds with your own belief; they are mutually exclusive.

[quote]
Originally posted by Lollypop:
** so God some how did get his word accross to every one!!!
**
[/quote]

33% of the world is Christian. 22% is Muslim. Christianity, as taught by St. Paul, is not the word of God, since that means Jesus is the Son of God, that means there is a holy trinity, and that means you will go to Hell unless you accept Jesus as your personal savior, and you accept he died for your sins and was subsequently resurrected. It seems the word of God according to Islam really isn't getting the word of God across to everyone.

20

[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
** 33% of the world is Christian. 22% is Muslim. Christianity, as taught by St. Paul, is not the word of God, since that means Jesus is the Son of God, that means there is a holy trinity, and that means you will go to Hell unless you accept Jesus as your personal savior, and you accept he died for your sins and was subsequently resurrected. It seems the word of God according to Islam really isn't getting the word of God across to everyone.

**
[/quote]

You are confusing Bible with Injil(second testament) And in the Injil it does not state Jesus was the son of god!Paul was not god therefore his word was not a wod of god

What does this have to do with Islam and Hinduisim?