For Afghans, Pakistan poses problem

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Friend or Foe?

KABUL, Afghanistan, Oct. 21 — In a corner of Kabul known as the Defense Ministry grounds, beyond several security checkpoints and bombed out steel hulks of Soviet-era tanks and armored personnel carriers, lies the office of Gen. Atiqullah Baryalai. One of the top generals in the new Afghan government, Baryalai is a key ally in Washington’s search for al-Qaida remnants. But the stinging analysis he offers of the war on terrorism in Afghanistan is troubling for the Bush administration.
After the 9/11 attacks on the United States, Pakistan became a key ally in the war on neighboring Afghanistan, lending bases and logistical support for American operations in the area.
But the Pakistani government has been under increasing criticism for failing to control the flow of fighters into the country’s northern provinces, where tribal loyalties have thwarted the hunt for al-Qaida.
Pakistan has its fingers everywhere in Afghanistan. They continue to support the terrorists. They pretend to be America’s friend, but Pakistan is the problem.”
Baryalai’s refrain is increasingly heard in the Afghan capital.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/823802.asp?0dm=C1ANN

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Afghanistan is the problem it self.

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he barked again? lemme guess Northern Alliance :)

warloards like him are probably thankful that its easy to move from afghanistan to Pakistan and hard to control due to the terrain, how else will they get their drugs sent to the world otherwise?

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Pakistan doesnt have any role to play in Afghanistan now, the days of taleban are gone...and now with the Americans inside Afghanistan, it seems foolish to suggest that Pakistan is still interefering in Afghan affairs...

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utd, American forces are going to have to be very careful in that part of the world. Local rivalaries are atleast decade old if not more, and who says what is always colored by their local allies. Afghans are not unified, and have not been for a long time. It is not clear to me as yet what is happening in Pakistan. How much of the Afghan Policy is being run out of Islamabad, and how much out of Peshawar is not exactly clear? The victory of MMA in Pakistan, whether intentionally brought about by the army or not, indicates that Pakistani society has changed over the last 20 years or so, and is far more "conservative" and more sensitive to cultural issues than before. They would support factions within Afghanistan as before, and will likely do so surreptitously if necessary. So it may not be possible for Pakistan or Afghanistan to have a "unified national" policy at the moment.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Afghanistan is the problem it self.
[/QUOTE]

Yup.

And Afghans should know that pakistan is their LIFE-LINE. We stop the goods from going in, afghans would be dead (unless they figure out they way to eat the vast amount of minerals and natural gas...or dead talibans)... thats far worst than those bombs coming down from b52s.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rangeela Guppy: *

Yup.

And Afghans should know that pakistan is their LIFE-LINE. We stop the goods from going in, afghans would be dead (unless they figure out they way to eat the vast amount of minerals and natural gas...or dead talibans)... thats far worst than those bombs coming down from b52s.
[/QUOTE]

Well said Rangeela.
i hear Afghanis making noise about Pakistan left and right but if it comes down to it, they are nothing but a thankless burden to whomever becomes their patron. I don't let my judgement clouded by opinions but the fact remains that EVERY non-Pashtun Afghani group blames Pakistan for all of their troubles. Afghani Pashtuns used to call for Pashtunistan, but I ask my Pakistani Pashtun brothers, would they like to join Afghanistan? The truth is that if you ascertain the views of the average Pashtun in Afghanistan, they would much rather enjoy the benefits that Pakistan has to offer. Economically, socially Pakistan is in relatively better condition than Afghanistan.

I think that when the Soviets attacked we should have set up check points to stop all non-Pashtuns trying to cross the border as refugees. But of us foolish Pakistanis let everyone in. We let our sworn enemies in and they later migrated to the west, where they now bash all Pakistanis. Atleast the Afghani Pashtuns are still grateful for Pakistan support.

I am sorry, I have no love for Afghanistan and its high time that other Pakistanis wake up and smell the hatred.

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Baryalai’s refrain is increasingly heard in the Afghan capital.

Vis-a-vis some of the comments, i think you guys are being too harsh. Does the article state that every Afghan is criticizing Pakistan? No, of course not. This General Atiqullah Baryalai is most likely a member of the NA; just because his comments have been given greater media exposure does not imply that every Afghan blames Pakistan for the problems falling on their country.

Being a Pakistani, i was never made to feel any hostility from any Afghan; on the contrary every Afghan i met went out of her/his way to make me feel comfortable.

This is not to imply that there are not any issues of potential misunderstandings between Afghans and Pakistanis; of course there are. The US utilized the ISI as a conduit for several years, funding money through them, to augment the Mujahideen fighting against the Soviets. Propaganda? No. Fact? Yes. i don’t have the references on me at the moment, but i will post them up later upon request, although i believe that perhaps, by now, this is common knowledge. For the record, for what it is worth, i am not a Pakistani-hating Afghan-lover :rolleyes:

All i believe is that there are far more subtler complexities than this article betrays; manifestly, there are problems between Afghanistan and Pakistan and between the peoples of that region. i realize i can be wrong about every word i have written above but IMHO these are not problems created in a vacuum however; they have their history in a past filled with betrayals and double crossings. Does this mean that Pakistan is responsible for every ill in Afghanistan? Manifestly not. IMHO it also does not imply that every Afghan blames Pakistan for the problems in their country. Perhaps if the peoples in BOTH countries focus more upon what they share rather than past historical grievances (albeit however legitimate), then the future relationships between these two neighbouring countries - that share so much vis-a-vis cultures, religions, languages, traditions, histories, customs - is grounds for some hope.

ps- Sincerest apologies in advance if i offend anyone. :flower1:

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"Vis-a-vis some of the comments, i think you guys are being too harsh. Does the article state that every Afghan is criticizing Pakistan? No, of course not. This General Atiqullah Baryalai is most likely a member of the NA; just because his comments have been given greater media exposure does not imply that every Afghan blames Pakistan for the problems falling on their country. "

Your right. On the other hand, does EVERY Indian criticize Pakistan? I would say no. However the general consensus in India much like Afghanistan is against Pakistan. I can pull out interviews where average people talking about mundane issues suddenly heap blame on Pakistan totally out of the blue.

“Being a Pakistani, i was never made to feel any hostility from any Afghan; on the contrary every Afghan i met went out of her/his way to make me feel comfortable.”

Consider yourself extremely lucky. I think that politics was not discussed in your meeting, had it been discussed then the reaction may be different. I have nothing against the Afghans who understand reality.

"This is not to imply that there are not any issues of potential misunderstandings between Afghans and Pakistanis; of course there are. The US utilized the ISI as a conduit for several years, funding money through them, to augment the Mujahideen fighting against the Soviets. Propaganda? No. Fact? Yes. i don’t have the references on me at the moment, but i will post them up later upon request, although i believe that perhaps, by now, this is common knowledge. For the record, for what it is worth, i am not a Pakistani-hating Afghan-lover :rolleyes: "

Yes that is all true and no need for evidence required. Lets look back at who started the mess. Afghanistan was the ONLY country and the on;ly Muslim country at that to vote against Pakistan’s entry into the UN. Lets not forget the covert and overt Media support for the Pakhtunistan issue? Lets talk about who poisoned the relationship? Was it Pakistan the newly Independent Muslim nation looking towards Afghanistan as a brother nation or was it Afghanistan ready to chop away our intgral provinces? I let the facts speak for themselves. Lets take it out of the spin zone and see the truth that even during the ISI-Soviet involvement we were taking in refugees when our economy was in no position to do so.

“All i believe is that there are far more subtler complexities than this article betrays; manifestly, there are problems between Afghanistan and Pakistan and between the peoples of that region. i realize i can be wrong about every word i have written above but IMHO these are not problems created in a vacuum however; they have their history in a past filled with betrayals and double crossings.”

Please clarify these “betrayals and double crossings”? It was Afghanistan who picked a fight with us for no reason. Do you think that I or any other patriotic Pakistani will basically agree to Afghanistan claiming Sarhad and walking away with it? No way in hell, will I agree to my country being broken further. If India is such a loved Khair-khhwa of the Afghans, then lets close torkham and other border crossing and have India airlift the food ans medicines that Pakistan has provided thus far.

“Does this mean that Pakistan is responsible for every ill in Afghanistan? Manifestly not. IMHO it also does not imply that every Afghan blames Pakistan for the problems in their country. Perhaps if the peoples in BOTH countries focus more upon what they share rather than past historical grievances (albeit however legitimate), then the future relationships between these two neighbouring countries - that share so much vis-a-vis cultures, religions, languages, traditions, histories, customs - is grounds for some hope.”

Again the general consensus is against Afghanistan. As for what we share with Afghanis is the Pakhtun element and that is the only area where we can work on. I believe that Pakhtuns in Afghanistan need and deserve Pakistans support. As for the other ethnic groups in Afghanistan, why don’t you ask the opnions of the residents of Pekhawar.

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Although, I do agree somewhat with Nadia_H, however, the fact remains that after 9-11, these unthankful Afghans have started complaining more about Pakistan than usual. The fact remains, that no doubt that during the 1980's era, the CIA, and ISI both used the Afghans, but we must also not forget here, that right after the cold war ended, it was the Pakistani government who had invited all the Afghan war lords to our capital city, Islamabad, in 1993-94, to come to a compromise, and establish a joint goverment, but it was the Afghan war lords, who were so power hungry and blood thirsty, that they refused to take the oppertunity, and instead started fighting again among themselves. Its very easy to blame our country and our government, for intervening in their internal affairs, but how could the Pakistani govermnet not do or say anything, when we were the ones to feed the 3 million Afghan refugees. Even after 9-11, its the Pakistani government who gave 10 million dollars to the Karzai government, when all the other rich countries gave nada.
I'm also of the opinion, that its just a matter of time, when these war lords will once again engage themselves in civil war, I hope I'm proved wrong though...

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ZulfiOKC: *
but how could the Pakistani govermnet not do or say anything, when we were the ones to feed the 3 million Afghan refugees. Even after 9-11, its the Pakistani government who gave 10 million dollars to the Karzai government,
[/quote]

ZulfiOKC,

You have just made your Enemies.

Kya karey bhai, we are as usual bad Pakistanis :D

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Sounds like a cop-out, laykin i don’t have time right now to write out appropriate and detailed replies to Rajput Fury and ZulfiOKC. Plus not feeling well. Will definitely, Insha’Allah, reply late tonight (11pm-12am US Pacific time, ~7am UK time). i think then i will feel better and be able to write out my detailed responses. :flower1: :flower1:

i’m not running away from this thread, just need some time to formulate replies that are more deserving of what has been posted here by ZulfiOKC and Rajput Fury. Many many thanks,
nadia

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Time’s about 11.18 pm (US Pacific) right now, so hopefully i am not too late :flower1: Thank you for the replies Rajput Fury and ZulfiOKC.

>>I think that politics was not discussed in your meeting, had it been discussed then the reaction may be different.<<
Rajput Fury, Throughout my trip, irregardless of wherever i went & whomever i met (excluding family members when the topics were different and discussed in a different order) - politics (local, regional and international), impressions of Canada/US/Pakistan, and different languages/dialects of different regions - were predominantly the topics of discussion. Almost always in that order. Not even once can i state that any Afghan made me feel uncomfortable. Would the same be said if an Afghan female visited Pakistan?

>>Afghanistan was the ONLY country and the on;ly Muslim country at that to vote against Pakistan’s entry into the UN.<<
That may well have been so but that decision was not taken after a referendum was held in Afghanistan and every Afghan got to vote on this issue. Two separate entities always - the people and their government.

>>Was it Pakistan the newly Independent Muslim nation looking towards Afghanistan as a brother nation or was it Afghanistan ready to chop away our intgral provinces?<<
Again i say that, whatever actions were taken by the then government of Afghanistan, they were not done in the name of the people of that country. It’s like blaming all Pakistanis for the policies that Zia ul Haq implemented…

Trust me, people all over the world - and ESPECIALLY those who survive as farmers, shepherds, peasants - have no interests in harming people of neighbouring countries especially their Muslim brothers and sisters. It’s always the government that is culpable - and exclusively should be held as such. Just because the Afghan government may have treated Pakistan in a disparaging manner in the past, does not mean that that entitles us to perceive of all Afghans ( - and qasam se i am not implying you hold this opinion, but some of my friends in real life do - ) as lazy good-for-nothing bums who constantly utilize all of Pakistan’s resources while still complaining that they are getting nothing. It’s an ugly picture to paint.

>>Please clarify these “betrayals and double crossings”?<<
The ISI allowing itself to be manipulated by the CIA throughout the decade of the 1980s. Lo and behold, once the American dollars had done their dirty work of training the Mujahideen by using the ISI as a conduit, who was left high and dry ? Not Afghan warlords or the elite, just the most vulnerable members of both Afghanistan AND Pakistan - children, as usual, followed by women, followed by the elderly and then the sick. If Afghans feel a sense of bitterness towards Pakistan, then IMHO they have all right to do so.

Khair as they say mitti pao. Everything occurred in the past and dredging it up only stokes up sentiments of bitterness and misunderstandings on both sides. As stated earlier, i think there is a rather strong foundation upon which both peoples can work together. Pakistan was created as a Muslim country; before we are Pakistanis, we are Muslims first and foremost. Allah doesn’t see me as a Pakistani and my Afghan brother as an Afghan; to Him we are both just Muslims.

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>>the fact remains that after 9-11, these unthankful Afghans have started complaining more about Pakistan than usual.<<
ZulfiOKC :flower1: :flower1: Please mind mat karrain, laykin yeh kaun sai Afghans hain jin ka upar zikkar ho raha hai? Have you interviewed every Afghan man, woman, and child in the country - how then are you so certain that they are all “unthankful” and do nothing but complain? Please believe me i am not saying this to cause any insult, this is not my maqsad for coming here on Gupshup. Please promise me you will not take any offence at what i write. :flower1: Let’s turn the tables for a split second - let’s imagine that in 1982 (i’m picking a random year), members of the CIA visited Afghanistan and secretly worked in tandem with the government of Afghanistan, utilized various tactics to pressure them to ensure that the govt. was encouraging more and more young men to go and fight an American proxy war against the Soviets in neighboring Pakistan. What’s more, the Afghan govt. KNOWS what is happening, knows that Pakistan’s social fabric is tearing apart at the seams, that the country is going through a civil war – basically that a lot of horrendous atrocities like rape and murder – are occurring.

This is all thanks to the CIA manipulating the Afghan govt. and funnelling dollars into Pakistan and training the Mujahideen. Also imagine for a second that, not only is the Afghan govt. doing all this to Pakistan, but it is also deliberately stirring up tribal differences and ethnic conflicts - where before Pakistan’s tribes lived sidebyside relatively peacefully (check out that #1 best-selling book by journalist Ahmed Rashid, who is Pakistani himself), thanks to the civil war funded by a foreign and neighboring government, this is no longer true. One’s tribal loyalties begin to supercede Muslim unity. Taqreeban das saal kai baad jab Soviets defeat ho jatay hain, the US does what it does best around the world - gets up and leaves behind a mess in Pakistan. All the rapes, the murders, the civil war, the tribal strifes - SAB choD kar. Your country has been raped, and those responsible have just gotten away with it.

Does that make you mad? How would you feel if the above description was an accurate rendition of Pakistan’s history - tell me honestly, how would you feel towards Afghans then?

>>but it was the Afghan war lords, who were so power hungry and blood thirsty, that they refused to take the oppertunity, and instead started fighting again among themselves.<<
Exactly, it was the Afghan warlords. Were ordinary Afghans invited to that conference ? No. Then we can’t blame the entire country for not utilizing that opportunity for peace. And also think, where did those warlords spring up from - in which environment were they created? It was only thanks to the CIA funding them via the ISI that they came to possess so many arms and weapons and possess so much power in the first place.

i wanted to discuss how the Pakistan government treats Afghan refugees in Pakistan-based refugee camps; i have had first-hand experience with this in terms of legal rights and dealing with Pakistani police officers who have over-stepped the boundaries vis-a-vis treatment of Afghan refugees especially single or widowed women. Laykin this is getting long so i will leave it for now.

i promise one last point - with everything, i try to put myself in the other person’s shoes; it’s a natural thing for a Pakistani to feel pride in her/his country. If i have any children i want them to feel that pride Insha’Allah for sure. It’s a GREAT thing, and i am not ashamed one bit for being Pakistani. i think i owe it - to myself, to my future children, to my country - that i try to be honest about my heritage, about my past. If i am not honest with myself, then the only one i am deceiving is myself. This is why i try to be deliberately critical of my government’s policies - not because i think it’s “cool” to be Pakistan-bashing… ONLY, and ONLY, because i want to have justifed and accurate pride in my country and it’s leaders.

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Nadia_H, thank you for an in-depth reply, just to let you know, unlike some other guppies I consider gup-shup as an exchange of ideas medium only, nothing more- nothing less. Therefore, any logical criticism is always whole heartedly welcome.
I'll be responding to your post very shortly, cannot afford to do it at the moment, its about 0100 central time.

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Almost had a heart attack, thought i had gone too overboard with my replies :smiley: Thank you soooooooooooo much ZulfiOKC for understanding that i’m not here to argue, just here for a respectful debate. :flower1: :flower1: :flower1: Thank you so much.

If needs be, please take your time to reply; i always do:~) No rush. Many, many, many thanks again,
nadia

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Those who think that what we did for Afghans was out of charity/kindness, like feeding and houseing millions are dead wrong. What we did and reason we did it was because it was in our interest. 1.5 million Afghans gave their lives, of course, to defend their own country from Soviet occupation, yet they indirectly helped us defending our country from Red Army of USSR.

Also, Afgans have good reason to hate us. Taliban was Pakistan's idea. And, under Taliban people of Afghanistan suffer greatly and they'll never forgive us, despite what we have done for them over last 20+ years.

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pakistan exploited sovietinvasion of afgahnistan and the following desruption to its own advantage and to gain "strategic depth" against
india.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shamraz Khan: *

Taliban was Pakistan's idea.
[/quote]

LOL>>LOL>>LOL

Have you ever heard USA, UAE and Saudi Arabia?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shamraz Khan: *
Those who think that what we did for Afghans was out of charity/kindness, like feeding and houseing millions are dead wrong. What we did and reason we did it was because it was in our interest. 1.5 million Afghans gave their lives, of course, to defend their own country from Soviet occupation, yet they indirectly helped us defending our country from Red Army of USSR.
Also, Afgans have good reason to hate us. Taliban was Pakistan's idea. And, under Taliban people of Afghanistan suffer greatly and they'll never forgive us, despite what we have done for them over last 20+ years.
[/QUOTE]

IMHO, your honesty is truly admirable, Shamraz.