[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
IMHO, your honesty is truly admirable, Shamraz.
[/QUOTE]
Pakistan had their reasons for supporting the taleban!
:k:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zaavia: *
Pakistan had their reasons for supporting the taleban!
[/QUOTE]
i'm sure they did, Zaavia. But try explaining that to an Afghan mother who has lost her family due to the civil war in her country funded by Pakistan and the US. i don't think any mother, whether Afghan/Pakistani/Canadian, would be too forgiving after losing all of her children.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nadia_H: *
i'm sure they did, Zaavia. But try explaining that to an Afghan mother who has lost her family due to the civil war in her country funded by Pakistan and the US. i don't think any mother, whether Afghan/Pakistani/Canadian, would be too forgiving after losing all of her children.
[/QUOTE]
Nadia read this from a German Estragon, who has recently been to Afghanistan, and been to all parts including the parts under in Northern Afghanistan...this situation seems similar to the situation, when the taleban rose to power...he has posted this on some Afghan forum...
hi y'all
again, my world has changed, like it has done before on several occasions, whenever something important happened in your life, it will leave no stone unturned, nothing is like it was before...
afghanistan... what a dream... what a reality... !!
yes, there are signs of hope for peace, freedom and prosperity for the future, but hope alone will not do, the dangers are still lurking in the background, waiting for the right time, and it will come, afghans have always known how to wait, just look back in history !!
sad but true, none of the people I talked to, including (afghan)military personnel, politicians, ngo's, journalists, believe in this peace, everybody is expecting the country to fall back into chaos, sooner or later, no matter who and which foreign forces are in the country !
burned out ngo's, frustration growing, so many problems that nobody knows where to begin with... its a pretty frustrating situation, overloaded with jealousy and low-level rivalries... burned out by the never-changing helplessness, the stoic stubborn opposition of local populations, not willing to learn the ways these ngo's want it to go... spoiling the people, help looks different !!
the fighting in the north is as cheap as can be, territorial infights, about some square-miles of land, and who is the one to control... if it was'nt just so simple and stupid... a fight about who is disarming who... dostums men don't want to be disarmed by ustad attar's men and vice versa... no problem, as they say themselves... not very funny !
it is very hard to translate my feelings about afghanistan, without touching the frustrating parts... and believe me, my illusions have been healed, as I said, my world has changed, again...
I wished all you afghans, who have not seen their country for years, or maybe see it for the first time, could go there and see for yourself...
afghanistan is like frozen, even if it is hot like a frying pan... something strange happens, kinda like sedatet, just waiting for a signal, a sign, a point of no return, a new outbreak of violence and civil-war...
everybody seems to know, everybody even says so, in the backroom, whispering, hand before mouth, not speaking out loud, something like a hidden truth that everybody knows - its not over yet !!
I really wished this steel polluted country could get their pollution out of their heads and minds, but the sound of firing guns, cannons and rockets is deeply implanted into everybodys existence, and it haunts them not only in their nightmares, its a bloody reality !!
I wished it could be possible to send ALL the world for some time to afghanistan, the world would change too, as my world has changed now...
I know this does not sound very enthusiastic, but then, do you want me to lie to you, just for the hope... no, I'm sorry, I can't do that, we're no children anymore...
on the other hand, its the children that I've seen, the laughter, the no-matter-what will to live, that leaves some hope, that it will not be true and this country will sink back into blood and disaster, but thinking this thought, I already want to delete it, because I realize, its just an illusion...
yes, the schools are open, the universities are open, life is going on as if nothing had ever happened... still, one can feel it in the air...
no, can't say that my visit filled my heart with hope... rather the opposite !!
I will not let these feelings enter my work, as I am starting to edit my material this week, this is just for you, my friends from AS, maybe I just need some more time, to distance myself again, guess I came too close...
I have deep respect for people like farhad and most of all najla... a big hug for both of you, keep up the spirit, don't give up, don't let go...
wished there were more people like these two !!
wished I could pray for afghanistan... but, as you know, I am {still, and more than ever} a kafir, I don't believe... I rather believe my eyes...
I have seen afghanistan !
its like a wild and beautiful beast, fascinating and repulsive at the same time !!
Nadia_H, first of all let me thank you once again, for an indepth and
logical reply. Just to let you know, I refuse to take the what- if
scenarios( Keeping in mind the current US-UN-Iraq issue, The US along with
the UK, is worried WHAT IF Iraq uses the WMD ).
Lets not forget, that the Afghans civil war is not something new, it has
been going on even before the Soviets invaded the Afghanistan. The communist
govenment of Najib, which was installed by the Moscow in mid 1970's, was an
open indication that Pakistan could be next Soviet target( Pakistan being so
strategically located ). It was in this context, that in late 70's and in
early 80's Pakistan decided to support the Americans in their war against
the Soviets. There is no doubt, that CIA in collaboration with the ISI,
created the Mujahideen, but the whole point of going through the whole
hassle was not oil or anything of that sort, but to get the Afghans their
freedom back from an outside invaders, and for Pakistan it was the warranty
to keep the Soviets away from invading our country, and for the Americans it
was the destruction or dis-membermant of the USSR .Thats how the ISI's Hamid
Gul and his clan percieved it atleast, and in my opinion rightfully so,
because of the fact that, at that time the situation was very volatile,
nobody knew what the Russian objective was, therefore in was made madatory
for us to take pre-emptive measure by not attacking any country, instead by
simply creating a blockade( In this case the blockkade was Afghanistan ).
The whole world, can blame Pakistan for creating the Mujahideen, but once
again the fact remains that it was done so in their own interest( Afghans ).
In my opinion if it is anybody who should bear the resposibility of the
Afghan mess, it should not be Pakistan, instead it should be the Soviets or
todays Russians, because it was them who invaded the Afghanistan in the
first place. As far as the destruction of their social fabric is concerned,
it was already destroyed by the time we got there. It was done in the
internal fighting, which took before, during and after the installation of
Najib's government, and whatever was left, was taken care of, by the Soviet
troops. Its my understanding that their are no records of Pakistan's ISI
agents involvement in any mass murders and rapes or anything of that sort.
I'm also of the opinion that the whole mess was re-ignited in early 1990's
after the Soviet withdrawl from the Afghani soil, because they were hungry
for power, and not by the Pakistanis or Iranians, but by their own war lords
and ethnic leaders themselves for e.g. Rabbani, Dostum, Maqsood etc. It was
in this regard that the government of Nawaz Sharif decided to host an Afghan
summit in our beautiful capital Islamabad in 1993-94. No doubt that the
summit failed, but it shows that as far as Pakistan was concerned it was
keen in promoting peace and stability in Afghanistan. Then came 1994, when
all the Mujahideen decided to bring stability in their country, at first the
Pakistanis decided to stay away from the mess, but once they realized, that
the Taliban had potential of bringing stability on our Western border, we
decided to go ahead full fledged and support them diplomatically and
morally. Besides, what other choice we had, it would'nt make any sense to
support the Northern Alliance who barely controled 10% of Afghanistan at
that time. I'm also of the opinion, that the motive behind the Taliban
uprising was absolutely fabulous, but what they did, once they got control
of Kabul was beyond anybodys imagination, and I for one never supported it.
Just to let you know I have read the book by Pakistani author Ahmad Rashid,
though I do agree with you that its a great book, however I do not agree
with the whole concept of creating the Talibans he has described in his
book.
One thing I have noticed in your post is that you keep bringing that the
Afghan war lords, ethnic leaders do not represent the common sentiment of
common Afghans, since they are not elected leaders. My take on that isue is
although you might be partly right, but the fact remains that these people
are still considered their leraders, therefore it would be okay for us to
consider that Dostum represents Uzbek-Afghan peoples sentiment in general,
and so on, so on.... I'm assuming you got the picture.
As far as the treatment of 3 million Afghan refugees is concerned, and I'm
assuming you are talking about Jalozie camp in particular, I absolutely
agree with you, that the way they are being treated is absolutely shamefull,
and not something ideal. But, what we also have to keep in mind, is that
Pakistan is a developing country, and can barely provide necessities for its
own people, forget about the added burden of the 3 million Afghan Refugees.
As far as Pakistani police is concerned in screwing poor refugees, I'm not
surprised. Pakistani police have a tendency of screwing everybody regardless
of their race, gender, religion etc. I'm sure most guppies including you
would agree with my short assesment of Pakistani police. Oh I almost forgot
to mention, I have had first hand experience of getting into a conflict with
some Afghans who directly blame Pakistan for all the ill's in their counrty.
There have also been reports in local media where the Afghan refugees went
on a rampage against the Pakistani government in NWFP and also in
Baloachistan( I'm sure links can be provided by fellow guppies ). I'm also
of the opinion, that most of the problems we have today in our country like
drugs, gun culture, fundamantalism etc.,, is the courtesy of lawlessness in
our neighboring country on the western front.
BTW, its not my place to judge your patriotism or your pride in the country,
however, its good to know that we are at the same level...
Peace
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shamraz Khan: *
Those who think that what we did for Afghans was out of charity/kindness, like feeding and houseing millions are dead wrong. What we did and reason we did it was because it was in our interest. 1.5 million Afghans gave their lives, of course, to defend their own country from Soviet occupation, yet they indirectly helped us defending our country from Red Army of USSR.
Also, Afgans have good reason to hate us. Taliban was Pakistan's idea. And, under Taliban people of Afghanistan suffer greatly and they'll never forgive us, despite what we have done for them over last 20+ years.
[/QUOTE]
Well said, and the reason for why this happened is also simple. We are continuesly willing to let military dictators rule us without even the slightest bit of concern. This is what happens to nations that have become resigned to their fate and dead in spirit.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *
Have you ever heard USA, UAE and Saudi Arabia?
[/QUOTE]
Sure, Americans, UAE and Saudis had hand in it, but it was Naserulah Barbar, then BB's interior minister along with Moulna Fazul-ul-Rahman, who at the time was chairman of committe in parliament on external affairs who came up with this Talibanic idea. Togather, BB, Naseerulah Barbar and Fazul-ul-Raham gave birth to Talibans.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
pakistan exploited sovietinvasion of afgahnistan and the following desruption to its own advantage and to gain "strategic depth" against
india.
[/QUOTE]
rivikzje, lets not forget the part your country palyed in whole Afghan mess. And, Russian the India's best friends, who invaded Afghanistan, slaughter millions of Afghans, yet you Indians never even condemned it.
Thanks, Nadia. 
You're welcome, Shamraz.
Zaavia, i read that piece by the German individual. It's interesting, but i think he needs to SLIGHTLY calm down a little bit - i completely agree with him that the country is stll extremely unstable. Changes won't come overnight. Plus it doesn't help that most of the aid money that was pledged at that Tokyo conference, has not yet materialized. Despite the efforts last year to get rid of arms in the public domain, warlords and others still possess a large amount of weapons. i am absolutely CERTAIN that very few Afghan civilians are happy to see their country in this social/economic state - i don't blame them for what is occurring in their country, no more than i blame the average Pakistani on the street for the low levels of female literacy or for the high rates of acid abuse. Whatever has occurred in Afghanistan, with the civil war, ethnic conflicts, warlordism, those are the responsibilities of foreign and local governments. Civilians, especially civilians who are as destitute and poor as the ones in Afghanistan, are NEVER given any power or voice - either by their own government or by the foreign ones that have interfered in Afghanistan's history - to speak up for themselves. If they have no representation in any sphere of the public life, then they cannot be blamed for what has occurred, and is still occurring, to their country.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Shamraz Khan: *
Sure, Americans, UAE and Saudis had hand in it, but it was Naserulah Barbar, then BB's interior minister along with Moulna Fazul-ul-Rahman, who at the time was chairman of committe in parliament on external affairs who came up with this Talibanic idea. Togather, BB, Naseerulah Barbar and Fazul-ul-Raham gave birth to Talibans.
[/QUOTE]
WRONG!
Not only Pakistan, but USA, UAE and Saudi Arabia as well.
PT,
Get some education on this topic. I mean real stuff, not PTV 
I’m not saying stuff from PTV.
You should get education on this topic.
According to ****ing media, only Pakistan created Talibans, not Saudis, UAE and Americans
PT,
Please read this book.
Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia by Ahmed Rashid
Also,care to show from where you got your “knowledge”?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
Also,care to show from where you got your "knowledge"?
[/QUOTE]
CIA and ISI created Talibans against Russians to fight Cold War.
PS: I'm not denying that Pakistan didn't create Taliban. I'm including rest of the members from your own link, read the review of a reader. It doesn't say UAE, they did create Talibans. UAE supported them, moneywise like Saudi Arabia, for some extent after Cold War when Afghanistan was left alone.
*Ahmed Rashid spent over 20 years as a reporter in Pakistan/Afghanistan. He has written a 216 page book filled with facts concerning the history, politics and culture of the Taliban, Terroism and American Oil Companies. Mr Rashid reports in a clear and organized style about events between 1978-1999 in this part of the world in the context of the history of the Middle East. His insights and reporting are both surprising and informative. He covers religious and political groups and factions and sects as only someone who has lived in this part of the world could do. It is amazing how he is able to present a straight-forward and intelligble account of so complex a situation. He deals with international intrigue by American Oil Companies, about the treatment of women, about Pakistan's and Saudi Arabia's support of the Taliban. Each and every chapter of this book contains valuable information to anyone interest in understanding how a small, unknown and uneducated group of religious Islamic extremist could assist in the destruction of the WTC on 911 and threathen the financial security of many Western economies. Turn off CNN, put down the Times and sit down to read a book which will provide an important framework for dealing with the problems we face today. *
ZulfiOKC :k: great job…I agree 100%. I was going to give a detailed response response but there seems to be no need as you hit the nail right on the head.
I think either Pakistanis are naive or have some sort of facination with Afghans to “overlook” the facts. Like Zulfi mentioned, their history isn’t exactly the most peace and Afghanistan has never been even developing. They may have natural resources but thus far they are largely unexploited. Agricultural production even during the peaceful days of Zahir Shah was never adequate.
Pakistan has done more and still does more for Afghanistan than any other nation. If you go to our border crossings like Torkham you can see for yourself the immense dependence of Afghans on Pakistan, whether it be food supplies, basic medicine etc. What have gotten in return?
I have had extensive contact with Afghanis both in professional and informal settings and I can tell you that Pakistan tops their hate list. Again this is most of the people that I have come across (Non Pashtun btw). I don’t expect anyone to base opinions on my perspective but rather I ask you to go do a search for afghani websites, visit their message boards, read the articles and you will see the sheer HATRED they have for our country. Like I mentioned before, Pakistan upon independence gave the hand of friendship but we were smacked across the face. They didn’t want us in the UN, they wanted to take parts of our country away, but why? Simply because of their narrow minded self interest. I am sorry but I don’t believe in the “soft” approach of appeasement that Pakistan and even some Pakistanis here talk about. If they hate us, then lets turn the pressure up to make sure that they are never powerful enough to threaten us. The world’s attention span is short, let the NA dominated govt ride out the limelight, in the end it will be Pashtuns that will be back- taliban or no taliban- Afghan=Pashtun.
Im sorry to say but you people have really been misinformed or just dont understand the situation. Taliban were created by Talibs, students in madrassahs. They started by 3 mullahs who had some afghans come up to them saying the warlords will not let me cross and i have so and so problem. they went to that warlord with 12 people and then disarmed him. from then on they started growing in strength, when they were fully established then came the aid and support of ISI. it really started from their own visions and they were fed up of having a lawless country. so it is true ISI, osama, some arabs etc helped taliban but they did not establish it.
True rajput the non-pashtun people in afghanistan are very rascist and very proud. i am a pashtun and really from hearing what people say, is that afghanistan has become ruled by northern alliance, they are killing and sidelining pashtuns. it has become lawless and the people in the south are reeling for the days of taliban.
talib_khan :k: your 100% right..
The Northern Alliance espicially Dostum is under investigation for the terrible treatment that he gave to the taliban, locking them up in airtight containers, many died on the spot…the abuse, the torture. Lets not even talk about the poor Pashtuns in the North like Mazar-e-Sharif area, how they were harrassed, killed, women dishonored by Panjsheri Tajiks.
Also lets talk about the innocent Pashtuns from Sarhad who went to Afghanistan to fight with their brothers, and how the NA transferred them to India when they were captured, while others still rot in jails. I have said it before, we made a HUGE mistake by letting ANY Non-Pashtun Afghans into our country as refugees, its like having your enemy in your house. If they hate us so much why did they come to Pakistan then?
Also don’t forget that the Northern Alliance was supported by India, Russia, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Iran, & Tajikistan. Who did the Pashtuns have besides Pakistan? let me remind you all that the Talibs controlled 90% of the country-- enough to say that Pashtuns will once again dominate Afghanistan.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
pakistan exploited sovietinvasion of afgahnistan and the following desruption to its own advantage and to gain "strategic depth" against
india.
[/QUOTE]
tujhe tu har pakistani chez me india nazar atta hai