Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
It has been long time coming. Sikhs and Muslims share Marshal traditions with their Frontier brothers. The area between Satluj river and Khyber is blessed with the best fighting men in the whole world.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
And wat about Hindoos who lived between Satluj river and Khyber pass?
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Yes Hindus too. However it was relatively small percentage of Punjabi Hindus (of Jatt and Rajput origin) who possess Marshal traditions.
The ratio among Marshal Hindus is much lower compared to Sikh and Muslim Punjabis.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
The ratio among Marshal Hindus is much lower compared to Sikh and Muslim Punjabis.
I guess you mean the likes of Akshay Kumars, Anil Kapoors, Ajay Devgans, and Sunny Deols. There are a lot of Punjabi Hindoos who are like 6+ feet tall and have fighting traditions in their family.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Dear Pakpatriot, you’ve sidesweeped the question as to why Hindus of Sindh are not enlisted or it is that they are considered to be politically unrelaible? Anyhow, don’t you think the recent sweetening of relations between Indian and Pakistani Punjab is an indication of the fraternal feelings and the wish for unity?
I think the fraternal feelings and aspiration for unity would become more pronounced after Punjabis loose power in Pakistan. And that would inevitably happen (as happened in the case of Pashtuns in Afghanistan but relatively peacefully) becuase Punjab’s rise to power is mostly adventitious and the result of the colonial and cold war politics of 20th Century.
The case of Pashtuns is different becuase apart from being culturally and ethnically one, Pashtuns also share the same belief.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Oh Baba! As I said earlier, Punjabi Hindus do have marshal traditions. It is just that they supplied relatively smaller numbers to the military.
Case in point, Bharati Col. (I am forgetting the name) who engineered Siachin occupation was a Punjabi Hindu.
Most of the Punjabi Hindus were settled in Urban areas, had access to colleges, and involved in service sector economy. This could also explain their low numbers in the military compared to Muslims and Sikhs.
Hope you got the point.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Case in point, Bharati Col. (I am forgetting the name) who engineered Siachin occupation was a Punjabi Hindu.
Most of the Punjabi Hindus were settled in Urban areas, had access to colleges, and involved in service sector economy. This could also explain their low numbers in the military compared to Muslims and Sikhs.
Hope you got the point.
I got it bro. Sikhs are traditional fighters but some Punjabi Hindoos too are. Look at the Indian cricket team- most of their good players are Punjabi Hindoos- Sachin, Mahendra Dhoni, Yuvraj Singh and Sehwag to name a few.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
mulz mian,
since when did punjabis become fighters? they have been farmers of fertile lands for centuries, and kept good cows and buffalos. can you name a couple of punjabi kings who have ruled over punjab, other than ranjeet singh?
even sikhs werent martial until guru gobind singh's time. more recently, punjabis were a favorite for the british indian army because they were docile and not trouble makers like UPwalay and biharis who roared in revolt in 1857.
after a thousand years of being ruled from delhi, ghazni, kabul by various mughals, abdalis, marathas, nadir shahs, where does the "martial" bit come from? punjabis are vastly peasants by origin. no shame in accepting this. what is shameful is denial of your identity.
and sachin is no punjabi. he's marathi. dhoni is bihari.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
since when did punjabis become fighters? they have been farmers of fertile lands for centuries, and kept good cows and buffalos. can you name a couple of punjabi kings who have ruled over punjab, other than ranjeet singh?
even sikhs werent martial until guru gobind singh's time. more recently, punjabis were a favorite for the british indian army because they were docile and not trouble makers like UPwalay and biharis who roared in revolt in 1857.
after a thousand years of being ruled from delhi, ghazni, kabul by various mughals, abdalis, marathas, nadir shahs, where does the "martial" bit come from? punjabis are vastly peasants by origin. no shame in accepting this. what is shameful is denial of your identity.
and sachin is no punjabi. he's marathi. dhoni is bihari.
Punjabis have always been brave fighters. Most of Pakistani army is Punjabi- ditto for Indian army. There was a joke that when Indian and Pak army face each other they can device whether to shoot or not in Punjabi. A significant component of the British army that fought the germans and japanese in world war II were Punjabi muslims. We fought alexander, nadir shah, Taimur and others who attacked India- you have to remember they all came thru Punjab. I am surprised Sachin is a marathi. I thought he was a sikh.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
sachin is from mumbai the heart of mahrashtra.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
indian and pakistani armies are only 60 yrs old. not really time to change from peasants to a martial race, i'm afraid. also punjabis being there in large numbers is only because of the british policy of recruiting from populations that have been docile under their rule. not something to brag about really.
agreed - alexander, nadir shah, taimurlain all fought punjabis. everyone knows their names. do you know the names of the punjabis they fought? :D no one does haha.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Mere docility doesn't make someone soldier, instead it makes him a Munshi (accountant).
A good soldier is the one who is smart to figure out when to obey orders and when to be a violent killer under the chain of command.
On a higher level, good armies don't need firebrand tribals. They need soldiers who can plan logistics and move thousands of men and material from point A to point B.
British recruited the best and brightest from their empire. They recruited Munshis form modern day Bharat (minus Punjab), they recruited mistries (industrial workers) from Hong Kong and Singapore, and they recruited sipahi (or sepoy for both Police and Army) from Punjab+Frontier.
Gandhi tried very hard to recruit southern Bharatis to the British army. Unfortunately he failed, but did win good brownie points from the British government.
p.s. Punjabis were part of British forces from early 1800s (Afghan wars). So the total military experience is more like 200 years and not 60 as per your post.
Southern Bharatis have almost 300 years experience being Munshis (money managers and accountants) starting all the way back with East India Co.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
err yeah right, aunty bulbul. soldiers and planning haha. the army officers were mostly brits. punjabis were mere footsoldiers and assorted cannon-fodder, especially along the northwest frontier, waging a pyerrhic war, with hardly any land gain and countless casualties. gladly being cannon-fodder for a colonial empire out of europe doesnt qualify you as a martial race, sorry.
peasants being recruited to serve as soldiers has been a world wide phenomenon in the past 200 years - happened everywhere from japan to south america. the only martial race of any importance from the subcontinent the brits ever made a regiment out of were the khukri weilding gurkhas. and they made sure they continued to keep them in their army even after they left the subcontinent. punjabis should embrace their peasant roots and quit with the fake bragging. milk em buffalos yo.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Queer kirman singh jee, I totally agree with you.
While my nana fought for the #$#@ British and was a POW for 5 years and my dada also wore the red coat for a few years, and so did many of their cousins, I don’t think they enjoyed doing that. All they wanted to do was to come back to the fields, work hard, see their effort grow and enjoy the harvest. And even though I am working as an injeneir, all I wanna do is have a farm house and milk some cows.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
I dont know why Hindus or Sidhis are not enlisted… Im sure there has to be a few… Still correct me if im wrong but Pathans have pretty high representation in the Army after Punjabis… Besides, this is just one Sikh. Its not gonna make a big dent in Pakistans reputation.
I dont think ANYONE wants unity with India per say, although unity needs to defined. If you mean peaceful relations, then yes, most people want peacful relations. Although no one wants peace at the expense of our national intrests.
Plus, Punjabis dont share much with Gujratis, nor the rest of India for that matter. The peace process was not started by Indian punjabis, but by a Bihari. And unlike in Pakistan where its a one man show, India’s policy vis a vis Pakistan isnt dictated by just one group. Even in Pakistan, the peace process was carried on the back of Musharaf who is a Mohajir. Perhaps the Punjab dominated army has backed it.. But then where was the Punjabi brother hood back three years ago when we almost went to war? Where was it when Kargil was happening?
Are you sure your precieved bonne homie between the two Punjabs isnt in reality purely a manifestation of the fact that we only have two main borders, with the biggest one connecting the two Punjabs? Its not that geographical political reality the two Punjabs have started meeting more closely? Also, if the Sikh pilgrims are any reason for you to precieve some kind of Punjabi unity, then that too can be explained by the reality of the fact that most Sikhs have their holy places in Pakistan Punjab. We simply facilitate Indian sikhs not because they are Punjabi but because their holy places happen to be in Pakistan Punjab. We also provide the same ervice to some Hindus who make pilgirmage to Katas Raj every year near Chakwal.
I understand the brotherly relation Pathans have with their Afghan counterparts, but that shouldnt be at the expense of Pakistan that all I have to say. Fine hate Punjabis all you want, but I just cant stand this dissolve the Durran line and joining Afghanistan thing. Pathans are free to share and be one people across the border, its only becomes a problem when you suddenly want to seperate. No country can ever accept this.
As for Punjabis losing their hold over Pakistan, ALL I CAN SAY IS INSHALLAH.
But it will take a lot of time. Punjab has done well for itself, and unfortunately, vested intrests are not willing to share that wealth. Eventually, the other provinces will have to gang up on it and take their right s by force if need be. So long as it doesnt turn into a movement against the unity of Pakistan. What I find mind boggling is how the smaller provinces have turned a grievance against Punjab into one against Pakistan as a whole. If you want your rights, then fight for them against Punjabi intrests not against Pakistan. I think the smaller provinces need to join the Pak Army in HUGE numbers so as to shift the balance of power in their favor, if Punjab refuse then hell, protest, and raise hell.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
lol… 
Thats the funniest thing I have ever heard you say!
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
There's a tendency to attack Punjabis on all the front but the fact is that had it not for Punjabis, Pakistan wouldn't have survived a single day. True, we do act like big brother at times but then had it not been the case, religious riots would have happened every day in Pakistan. It was bhutto who ordered killing of thousands of baloch. He started wooing the religious mullahs and it was he who started hatred against ahmadis and other non-muslims. Punjabis by far have gone a step extra to preserve the sanctity and unity of Pakistan. I find it hilarious when Pathans talk of joining Afghanistan :D Go ahead bro, do that if you can but all you will get is stupid ideas and a country living in the 7th century.. There was this british journalist who was posted in Jalalabad, Afghanistan and he was saying its like living on the moon- there's no road, no electricity, and no houses.. why the heck did Neil Armstrong go so far when moon is rt next to Pakistan! These Pathans are ahsaan-faramosh of the 1st degree- dont pay tax, dont contribute to the growing Pak economy and then talk of joining hands w/ jaahils next door.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Queer, you are correct about Gurkhas mostly from Nepal. Top notch soldiers as well. However their overall numbers were very small. If I am not mistaken, they couldn’t even raise one brigade (around 3000 men) purely from Gurkhas . I should have included in the list at least as post script
For Punjabis+Pushtoons being peasant is the source of pride just like being a soldiers.
Many ethnicities including Sindhis, and Gujaratis like milking baffalos
Soldiers of WWII included Scotts, Irish, New Zealanders, Australians etc. They all were cannon fodders. This is what war meant to be. Feeding young men to canon fodders.
Sure Desis rose in the ranks. By 1947, you could easily find decorated Brigadiars (1 star general in British army). Our famous Ayub Khan was a Brigadiar even before Partition.
BTW you ignored the role of Gandhi Ji (the epitome of non-violent) in recruiting the orderlies from the Southern Bharat. Why was he so motivated in sending non-violent kids as orderlies to Punabi-Pushtoon soldiers (aka cannon-fodder)?
But the life of a Munshi (accountant) is mere existence counting money. So have at it if you happened to be born in the family of Munshis and clerks. And be pround of it instead of burning with hate and prejudice.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
well it looks like aunty bulbul has taken the whole idea of being farmers the wrong way, and has to incoherently flood about gandhi, munshi, southern bharat, what not.
seriously, why are you trying so hard to make punjabis sound like pashtoons? why so ashamed to accept it that punjabis have mostly been an agricultural people in the fertile indus complex plains?
as for sindhis and gujaratis, these communities have had more traders (banias and munshis for your simple punjabi brain) among their population traditionally than punjabis, who were almost entirely peasants.
as for me being from a family of munshis, no, i'm from a family of peasants, some of who were recruited by the brits to serve in their navy. my nana and brothers were among them too. so are my uncles. however i have no misgivings of being from a martial tribe.
Re: First Sikh officer in Pakistan Army
Oh Baboo Raam! what happened? Had too much spices in your food today? or got up on the wrong side of the bed?
Punjabis+Pushtoons have provided bulk of soldiers since 1800s. Even in Punjab, Pothohar is the soldier rich area. Down in plains, you may get officers from Gujrat down to Lahore. So there are certain areas known for their craftsmanship in differnt fields. Talking about those areas has nothing to do with mixing one ethnicity with another.
It is not a big deal. As I said, Brits recruited the best and brightest in every region. They got world class Munshis from the Southern Bharat. My hats off to them.
A good Munshi is as important as a good sepahi. Why are you so uppity about it.
Yeah right! What ever rigns your bell.
Be happy about yourself and don't burn in anger and hate. Oh well what else we can expect from the land of Lallu Parsad.