Re: First copy of the Qur'an
Okay, so that's another tale I'm hearing. That it was buried with him.
I'm wondering what Sunni scholars think Ali (R) was thinking all this time?
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
so you guys really can't prove what's sold as Koran is what Allah published as Koran? yet some of you want to edit out some parts of it as not from Allah - how the hell do you know? Just because some verses do not present your religion in politically acceptable light in this modern and civilized society, you want to just deny some parts of Koran are not Allah's words.
Seems quite deceitful
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
armughal, I challenge you tho bring any proof from the modern Shia theology and fiqah about what you’ve written above. And If you cant then just keep your hole shut.
nuf said!
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
I am not an expert on Shia Islam. However, my memory is that the Quran of Ali r was chronological and contained explainations about when and why these verses were revealed on the margins. At the time there was some fear that some people may think that his comments were also a part of the Quran or get confused about the correct order of the Quran. Hence, Ali agreed to destroy it and ratified Quran of Uthman r. However, this later created the problem of the lack of context for verses in the Quran. This is why the written Hadith text collections, were compiled later, relying on the memory of transmitters and their chains of narration to prevent them from adulterating the text of the Quran. However, due to the delay, many ahadith are innacurate and methods had to be developed to separate the strong from the weak, a good innovation, by Islamic scholars, in my opinion.
regards,
bob
regards,
bob
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
^ what bob wrote further proves 2 things:
there is really no way to prove that what is branded as Koran today is what Allah originally published
when you hide information from public (such as when the Koran with timeline and context was destroyed because people may question it), the law of unintended consequences catches up with you and you ended up destroying the credibility of the whole book!
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
You need to re-read my post, nobody questioned Ali’s timeline or his comments. The reason Ali agreed to destroy his copy was that he had made personal comments on it and he didnt want those who loved him to think that his personal comments were part of the revelation. In Islam the text from Allah has to be separated from the personal opinions of the prophet p and others, such as Ali r.
Ali r had satisified himself that r Uthman’s Quran was in the order that Mohammad wanted it rather than the chronological order in which his own personal copy had recorded it (with comments in the margin).
regards,
bob
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
^Although I do not agree with what you have written but please back your claim with references.
thx
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
Like I said, I am not an expert on what Shia believe, but I remember reading this on one of their websites. So I looked it up and here is what I found:
This transcript of Quran which compiled by Imam Ali (AS) had the following
unique specifications:
a) It was collected according to its revelation, i.e., in the order in
which it had been sent down. …
b) This transcript contained commentary and hermeneutic interpretation
(Tafsir and Ta’wil) from the Holy Prophet some of which had been sent down
as revelation but NOT as a part of the text of Quran …
c) This unique transcript also contained references to the persons, places
etc., about which the verses were revealed, what is called “Asbab al-
Nuzul”. …
http://www.irib.ir/Special/imam%20ali/html/en/quran_compiled_by_imam_ali.htm
regards,
bob
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
**so you guys really can't prove what's sold as Koran is what Allah published as Koran? yet some of you want to edit out some parts of it as not from Allah - how the hell do you know? Just because some verses do not present your religion in politically acceptable light in this modern and civilized society, you want to just deny some parts of Koran are not Allah's words.
Seems quite deceitful**
Apparently you are not understanding what is being said.
Many people had the Quran memorized by heart. The original Quran that was either destroyed, or buried, or lost or whatever is the case (I'm trying to figure out what it was exactly) is not that much different from the current Quran - the difference is the dialect in which its recorded.
If the meanings were that drastically changed, the majority of people would know about it, since the majority of people had the lines memorized.
I know its kinda hard to believe that even one person could memorize so much, but people do it all the time. Even today.
Keep your mind open. :)
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
Although I have to say, I almost wish that Ali (R) had not destroyed his copy, i.e. this disputed original Quran. I think it might have helped a lot to have those explanations of the verses.
I mean, even today, if you go buy a translation, you have commentary by scholars in the side notes.
But then again, they came from what was originally a very jaahil society. I think they probably tried their best. They had their reasons, most likely, whatever they were.
Otherwise, over the changing of even one verse (meaning-wise, I mean), there would have been such an uproar. People wouldn't sit silent and just let someone fiddle with the verses.
Probably why the shias are in a minority in the first place.
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
First of all, nobody does anything without Allah’s permission. So please dont be too upset. We want you to stay pyariCgudia.
Like I said, there is a view that since people were writing ahadith with the text of the Quran, the caliphs were afraid new converts might not see the difference between the Quran and personal opinions of the prophet p and his companions r.
regards,
bob
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
Dead right :k:
**
- there is really no way to prove that what is branded as Koran today is what Allah originally published**
We do not know any quran which **Allah ever published ** The one we have is authored by Allah. published by humans. May be you are talking about some other galaxy.
The quran is the same as it was 1400 years ago. If you can, prove otherwise 
2. when you hide information from public (such as when the Koran with timeline and context was destroyed because people may question it), the law of unintended consequences catches up with you and you ended up destroying the credibility of the whole book
This is part of documented history, If you are unaware, Its not our fault. The later part does not make sense. There is not an iota of a doubt in the credibility of the book for muslims, the debate is on the compilation methods.
For non-muslims you may doubt each word and each sentence of the holy book… like we care 
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
PCG: Do you believe in the Miraculous birth of Hz Eesa :as:?
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
**For non-muslims you may doubt each word and each sentence of the holy book… like we care **
Very well said, Code-Red. :k:
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
anged my
God is having. Can you take from him?
Well I must clear that in Our Prophet’s life the Holy Quran was rearranged and was recited twice in his last year of life. And The Holy Quran got a book shape after his death, in the era of first Caliph. Sayedna Usman only putted “DOTS” 'Nuktay- on the Quran then he published the Quran with Nuktay so Ajamis can read it correctly. Because original Arabic did not has Nuktay. An arabic person could read that font but as we are Ajamis, we cant understand arabic in that font. Thats why to save the real text he did this.
Thats all from me. If you are having some more confusion in your mind you can ask freely.
Regards
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
The best aswer is [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]** 1. Alif Lam Mim.
- This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
and
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 1.In Surah AL-BAQARA chapter number 2 verse number 185
"The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction; therefore whoever of you is present in the month, he shall fast therein, and whoever is sick or upon a journey, then (he shall fast) a (like) number of other days; Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty, and (He desires) that you should complete the number and that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks. "
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=1]
2.In Surah AN-NISA chapter number 4 verse number 82
"Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy. "
](“http://www.drzakirnaik.com/pages/quranonline/surahs/redirect.php?surah_number=4&surah_name=AN-NISA&ahya_number=82&quran_search=Quran”)
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] **[/size]
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
"I believe the Quran is infallible because Allah tells me to, and I believe Allah tells me to because the Quran says so"
Faith may be reason enough for people to have their beliefs, but circular reasoning is not evidence to support those beliefs outside of faith.
Re: First copy of the Qur’an
“I believe Jesus is god because god tells me to, and I believe god tells me to because Jesus says so…”
Goes both ways Seminole…
If God can truly create a being out of a virgin mother (Which is one of the fundamental beliefs of both our faiths), how hard do you think it is for Him to keep the Quran as it is till Judgment day…
If you have doubts about the Divine birth of Eesa :as:, then I can understand why you think the Quran might have been written by a mortal…
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
[quote]
"I believe Jesus is god because god tells me to, and I believe god tells me to because Jesus says so..."
[/quote]
^Well Jesus is not God, He is a messenger of God. If he is God then there is a little question. If Jesus wants you to stay alive and the Father God wants you to die right now. What will happen? Will you die or stay alive?
Re: First copy of the Qur'an
I never pretended any belief in any tenet of any religion is anything more than faith. And I have never declared the Bible the infallible word of God on this board.