Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

Lifestyle Relationships
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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

ok, this thread is back in business! Lets keep to the topic this time! Thanks folks!

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:)

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

P-Sqaured to remind you of an important fact.

We are not judging or sending Gay People to Hell.

It is the statement of Nabi-Pak (in more than one hadiths) and the action of Allah Subhanana Talla with the People of Loot (pbuh).

Mosts of the people on Gup.Shup are sunni oriented, and we follow sunni fiqhs.

And in sunni fiqh, simialr to other Haraams; for example eating pork, drinking, gambling, fornicating, killing, stealing, all are to publically discouraged.

I dont think it will be long time before we see wide-spread sympathethy also on gup.shup for:

'kleptomaniacs'

'gamblers'

'alcoholics'

'pededophiles'

'serial killers'

'rapists/fornicators'

As from the logic of mental-disorder each one can claim somesort of addtiction/complusion to do those HARAAM acts

'

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

Amir-ji...surely those who suffer from afflictions such as you mentioned in your list...they DO deserve our sympathies yeah? We are not to judge them, it is our job to be the best person that we can be, its our job to try to show others the best way to be. Not that criminals deserve or should get away with their crimes....they should indeed pay in full for their crimes. But at the end of the day, its THEIR problem and their issue to deal with how things go when they arrive at jidgement day...its not for you or I to take care of this....only to take care of our own selves and to guide others without judgement as best we can yeah?

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MMO3

We are not judging people personally.

We are only reminding them of the kind of judgement Allah and his Messenger have already placed on them.

Why dont peolpe understand that Nabi-Pak has made it very clear that the shameless practice of CERTAIN SINS will take you to HELL.
For example if i was a fornicator, or I had a problem sustaining my virginity because of my compelling innates urges to loose it, and i came to any of you for advice what would you tell me?

Whatever it would be ofcourse it would certainly not consist of sympathy for me that Allah might have mercy on me? How silly is this---This mercy Is is a form of encouragment.

Next, When fornication/adultery has already been declared Haraam in the Koran and the MAJOR SIN....and not in one but many sahih hadiths conveying how 'the inhabitants of hell will mostly be those people who did not guard thier private parts'

THEN HOW CAN YOU HAVE A SYMPHATETIC ATTITUDE TOWARDS ME WANTING TO FORNICATE?
Either you would advise me to furfill it in a legal way, or excercise control or either advice me to see a specialist/doctor/religious advisor, in no way will you give me any advice that 'lets-me-be' they way i am.

The same applies for any any other HARAAM, i.e GAYNESS.--And Gayness is even worse because it is not even natural.

And we are doing nothing but our duty to remind people of the Rulings/Stance of Allah and his messenger to those, so they continue to try thier best to stay away from them.

Unless dear you can find a specific hadith on allowance of mercy of The Prophet (pbuh) towards gay people, we can not formally convey a mercy likewise.
Do I need to quote 10-20 hadiths on The Prophets Judgements on Gay People?
I thought the intelligent peolple on gup.shp would have been already familar.
But it appears not so, otherwise they would not be calling us the judges.

And I never implied in this thread that there is no mercy for truly helpless people.
I re-iterate that i said Allah knows the contents of the hearts of all men.
And If somebody truly belives they are 'Truly Majboor' from thier gayness, then the only person who can issue them a mitigation or something of the kind, is a SCHOLAR, who this person needs to personally consult.

But we as lay-men and mainstream muslim society, who belive in the koran, should in no way by any means encourage the Gayness.

Open sympathy, is also form of encouragement sometimes.

Because Gayness is still a Haraam, and already there is wide population of Gays in the World, what could be worse than widely symphatizing and encouraging the moral of the Gay dudes?
We should aim to help to reduce the Gayness is our society than compared to proliferate if we do not want to bear consequecnes of the people of LOOT (PBuh)!

I cannot belive people can be so ignorant in by ignoring the example of H.LOOT In the Koran.
For anyone with logic the lesson is clear.

Do you remember once upon-a-time in one old civilised gay-practicing nation........ but there was one poor, man Loot who use to preach the nation agsints thier homsexual pratices.

but hey, you know in this guys opposition, there were many merciful people like me and you who kept on saying oh thats thiers and Gods bussiness, they arnt harming anybody, we are nobody to tell them stop, its thier matter, let God Judge them.

Hell-Yes what did God judge?---------What he did was flipp thier whole city inside out turned it on its back and pelted them with burning stones from hell!!

HAVE YOU FORGOT!

And you want to repeat the mistake of having mercy?

What a joke?

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

As i empahzized mercy in if in any exceptional cases is left to the people with most insight and wisdom as are scholars, who are licenced to issue fatwas and recognise exceptional cirucmstances.

And Yes, many a time you would find hadiths in which the Prophet by-passed so-and-so sins of somebody and said they will still be in heaven because of so and so goods.

But pls note you will never ever, find such BY-PASSES for MAJOR SINNERS, SUCH AS FORNICATORS, KILLERS, BLACK MAGICIANS, LIARS, HYPOCRITES, OR GAYS.

If people dont know know to intrepret hadiths then leave the intrpretations to peolpe who do know.
It can be viewed as dangerous gaining more and more knwoledge but without understanding.
A lot of people dont know this but the pious sahabies after the time of the prophet, infact burned almost a quarter of sahih hadiths, because they feared they would be misunderstood.--Yes there were many more hadiths than we alreayd have...Maybe thats why you find very few hadiths with a chain linked back to H.Abu bakr.-

As RC rightly said in a previous thread, having partial knowledge is more dangerous than having no knwoeldge.

I wish people acted more repsonsibly in fields they are no experts atleast.
I wish people put-asides their egos atleasts somtimes and submit to what is right.

If anybody doubts on any of my statements in the Islamic Stance towards gayness, you are more than welcome go check me with a Sunni-scholar.

[Split Thread] The Joint Family System
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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

question for you pindi, RC and other who feel so strongly about homosexuality. are you familiar with "al wala wal baraa"? what is it that keeps you from performing hijrat from lands that are clearly conducive to homosexuality, and will only be more so in the foreseeable future?

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

Well i live in a western location, and Alhumdulillah it is not as densly Homsexully populated as yet that would be causing me a problem.

And if all the right people flock out of the kufrs lands, then who be be left to give dawaah to them.
We want to bring people and neglected brothers like you back to Islam.
Theres always room for mercy and love in Islam for the truly repentant no matter how bad his past may be.

Imran Khan responsible for Pakistan cricket team's performance - Aamir sohail
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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

how many kafirs have you given dawaah to so far, pindi pai?

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

Refusing to hate someone isnt sympathy...its minding your own business. Im going to say something that might piss some people off but here goes:

Muslims are labeled everywhere you look as terrorists and killers nowadays. Pakistan is famous for being the most dangerous country in the World. We are not very popular right now people...lets face reality.

Lekin as usual...humko ek doosre pe ungli uthaney se fursat miley to apna hashar dekhein. Hazbe mamool...here we are...arguing amongst each other...

You think you're the first man to ever research homosexuality Amir? You think people dont know what you NOW know? You think you're the only man on earth with the ability to use Google? Hm? I hate to disappoint you buddy...but its been talked to death already but here we are beating a dead horse. Revelation: you're not the first and you wont be the last to type homosexuality in your search engines.

For all of you people who are willing to write novels against homosexuality and ready to torch them alive...I dare you to bring to light an issue MOST MUSLIMS are affected by and CAN BENEFIT from discussing. I dare you to make a difference in the lives of people who even YOU believe are Muslims.

Yahan haanp kaanp ke aur dhindora peetne ka koi faida nahin hai. Koi nayi baat karo aur koi achi baat karo...agar dam hai to. Apni khamiyon ke barey mein baat nahin karte log...apne kiye ko chupatey hein...lekin agar koi doosra gunahgaar hai to uski khair nahin...right? Kisi doosrey ke barey mein Allah swt baad mein puchenge...pehle APKA hisaab hoga...never forget that. Uske liye tayyar ho jo seena taan ke homosexuals pe Islamic Verdict deliver karrahe ho?

Translation: There is no point in beating your drum against homos. WHy? Because I know for a fact that each and every single one of us has our own sins to worry about. No one talks about what they do wrong or how flawed they are...but they always want to talk about the next guy and how horrible he is. BEFORE Allah swt asks you about how you tried to save the Ummah from gay people...he might ask you about your own sins. Are you ready to face your Allah that you're delivering Islamic Verdicts for homosexuals now?

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

^ TRUE.

Most Muslims KNOW Islam's stance on homosexuality. Even most GAY Muslims KNOW **what Islam says about homosexuality. Just like MOST Muslims **KNOW that zina is haram.......but still some **Muslims engage in **zina freely. Most Muslims KNOW that they MUST pray 5 times a day and that not doing so is gunnah. But some Muslims still get lazy and skip their prayers deliberately. I'm NOT trying to encourage or justify the committing of sins.

The BOTTOM LINE is that most people tend to know what religion says about issues. But the final verdict as to whether that person will go to heaven or hell is up to Allah alone. Judging is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to complex. And being weak and imperfect human beings ourselves...........we can't judge another weak and imperfect person.

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

Has anyone of us said that you are wrong? Has anyone of us said that Islam condones homosexuality? NO! Just because we are not on an active mission to preach about homosexuality does not mean that we have doubts about your statements.

**"And you want to repeat the mistake of having mercy?" (Quote)

**So what would you like us to do? Do you want us to round up all the homosexuals and condemn them to hell? Do you want us to hunt for homosexuals and preach to them? Do you want us to impose/force/pressure them? Do you want us to breathe down their necks and continue preaching until they repent to Allah??????????? The best that a person can do is to guide gently and then leave the person alone to decide their path in life. There are etiquette regarding guidance as well. And guidance that is done in the wrong way........can do more damage than good.

*"Theres always room for mercy and love in Islam for the truly repentant no matter how bad his past may be." (Quote)
*
You can't wait for people to repent. That is not your job. Repentance is between Allah and his creation. Just because a person has not repented to Allah or changed their lifestyle...................doesn't mean that we should treat them with disrespect..................or that we should continue preaching to them to the point that the other person becomes turned off.

"Open sympathy, is also form of encouragement sometimes."** (Quote)**

Are we showing open sympathy? Are we advocating laws that support gay marriage? Are we recommending that people consider homosexuality as a lifestyle? NO!!!!!!!! MOST OF US here are not doing that. All that most of us are saying is that you do your best to guide gently.........and then leave final decisions to the individual. Islam is not a religion of force and imposition. All we are saying is that REGARDLESS of whether a person is gay................he/she is still a HUMAN BEING. Homosexuals also experience joy, sadness, anger, pain, tears, etc. We can only guide gently and within reason.............we can't force. After gentle guidance.................we need to leave the person alone....................and FOCUS MORE ON OUR OWN **INDIVIDUAL PROGRESS **IN ALLAH'S EYES!

Andaz Apna Apna
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Thats exactly what I was trying to say!

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I understand peoples attitudes towards non-hate and non-hate towards Gayness and Gay People, which i fully agree and support.

But Firstly since Chanda-Ji you make direct accusation on me. Il asnwer you directly. Madam I do not use google for any of my religous posts. If you dont know then how can you accuse me of being a google engine.
How ignorant.
If you think I am spending hours/days of my precious time forging up/putting together the best google websites on Gayness just so that nobody can win over me in gup.shup then what can i say.
And regardless, of that, as long as the content of what is being told is correct and accurate it should not matter where it may be coming from.
If im saying anything sensible and right you should accept it if i am not then you should not.
No parts of my posts are going against the koran or hadith of that I am sure.

*And Chanda-Ji, personnally, I would watch it if i were you. *

The problem I have is not that people are ignorant on gup.shup with Haraam of Gayness, but with thier wrongful and symphatetic attitudes towards Gayness.
There is one Gay on this forum, who i do not hate, but i feel it that his Gay moral is being increased by the sympthatetic attitude of many's towards him of 'letting-him-be'.
And especially from an earlier thread that got closed where more than one users where trying to justify from koran and islam that gayism is allowable.
How ERRONEOUS!

If you note I never emphazied there is no symphathy for such people.
I emphazied that this is a case that is best left to be decided between a scholar and the person.
Showing mercy on a public forum like this towards Gayness=A MAJOR SIN, is nothing but lifting the moral of that particular Gay and other potentials into remaining/advancing in that state.

Now i dont mean to offend anyone. But i think it is total ignorance, and stupidity having open mercy on any type of person who is inclined towards doing ANY MAJOR HARAAM ACT.

We as muslims, are advised to stop another muslim erring by all means possible, from our actions, tongue, intentions.

For example; if a person tommorow came on gup.shup saying he is addicted to alchohol, what would you say?
Would you by any means, tell him that 'oh freind we know and you know it is haraam, but your judgement is with Allah',
Or would you advise him that indeed the final judgement is with Allah but he being a muslim and Alcohol haraam, he must continue to strive against it and seek as much therapy as possible in order to get rid of it.

There is a Gay brother here, and i re-emphazize that i do not hate him nor do i think he should be shot.

But the point to him is that we can not as muslims encourage gay culture by telling him that it is ok to 'be-gay' . and im sure we all know Islam emphazizies 'to conceal our sins'....as compared to openly and discuss them.....

This man should seek advise from a learned person. And even if that learned person allows him an exception, it should be kept outside the knowledge of society.

Im quite confident, that not only gays, but any types of open wrong doer in any orderly society will be disliked.
Islam emphathizes shame. Keep your sins to yourself.

feel appropriate.

I understand that some sins should be left between the siiner and God.

But people Gayness is A MAJOR SIN. The Nation of Loot (pbuh) got destroyed by just Gay being in it.
So i dont think if you come across a gay person, you can by-pass it like another small or umimportant wrong habit, that could have room for forgiveness.

You will never find any hadith that by-passes a major sinner to heaven.
Therefore if the prophet (pbuh) did never make statements about major sinners being granted heaven than how can we.

Zina, Adultery, Homo-Zina, Killing, Stealing etc are all major sins and no one can be a regular practice of them and a good muslim.

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God knows i may be a pervert, a fornicator, pedophile but in no means can i expect to open a public thread expecting mercy for me and my Haraami state...

I am in no way advocating extremism against Gays in my posts. I do not hate gay people, Infact I feel impressed by those that strive against thier urges for the sake of Allah.

But I do have a dislike for people who do major sins and are then proud of themself.

I do hate those Gays, that go around parading they are proud to be gay and worse justify it from Islam.
Apart from preaching Haraam, That is slander of the Holy Book. Which I and not other muslim should tolerate.

How can you be PROUD of doing a HARAAM ACT FOR GODS SAKE!

I think il also soon start walking around my neighbourhood with a slogan on my forehead from now on,

** -''I need to do Zina''- **

And Yes i dont have bags of time, I only opened this thread for the benefit and care for my co-pakistani, naik fellow guppies who I want keep on the perfect and straight path.

and did not not want to mention this, but I do personally learn under a scholar, which is why i am confident of my statements.

But i think this thread should be closed, as maybe for other people on gup.shup neither is it an issue when people justify gayness from the koran, and neither is it an issue such people being given mercy.
I think discussion is what gup.shup is for. I do understand this, but i would request to mods. and others to please try to prevent as much possible those types posts that are clearly at expense of Islam.

Mods close this thread whenever u feel appropriate.

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I think amir_pindi is also saying this. He's not issuing punishments for Queer or other homos.

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Re: Final Islamic Verdict on Gayness

Amir, I agree. I think this issue has been discussed to its fullest and to keep it open would be just to go around in circles :).

Thread closed.