I am sorry if i offended you or anybody .IT was NOT my personal choice & course of action.I DONT KNOW B/c i am not even remotely in that suituation.
SO MY OPINION IS VERY OBJECTIVE as opposed to SUBJECTIVE WHICH YOU ARE ASKING FOR .
I KNOW THIS IS HOW SOCIETY IN OUR CULTURE THINK !
Mostly & heavily influenced by ISLAM ofcourse .Now subjectively every body has right to his action .I think even western laws (which is also religous influenced IMHO but of christianity) will grant divorce to woman or man on ground of unacceptable infertility by the other partner
If Pcg you find a man who has your views it is fine ,but how can you expect all men to think like you when i doubt even handfull of woman in your own community dont THINK LIKE YOU ā¦they think "Bacha tou allah ke daine hai aur gode khaali ek tarah ke azaab jaan aur bad kismeti hai "
BUT ALLAH HAS MADE PARTNER FOR EVERY ONE
P.S. EVERYONE PLZ READ IBRAHIM alahis salams FAMILY LIFE .He married a African fertile woman HAHAR in hebrew & HAZRA in urdu after his sick SARAH in hebrew/english & sara in urdu was unable to be pregnant .Miraculously both woman became pregnant & Hajar gave birth to Ismael or Imail in urdu & Sarah opr Sara to JACOB in hebrew opr Yaqoob in urdu .It can be illustrative of all semite religions christian jews & islams attitude towards progeny ,polygamy ,jelousy between two wives & subsequent as they say two tribes from Ismael the muslioms & Jews from the Jacob or yakoob .So much about bible story or islam folk lore with pinch of salt
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sheikh said : if my wife had a miscarraige .... then i would keep her as a wife as it is not her fault
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This is where men begin to show their colors. Why don't u come right out and say that infertility is a FAULT in women, a defect so to speak. Which makes them lesser women than others.
If a woman has a miscarriage and then cannot conceive, it is not "her fault", because she had the capacity to conceive b4, but just lost it by a tragic misfortune.
But a truly infertile woman is ... faulty. Something wrong with her. Lacking. Defective merchandise.
Ana, we should start the Gupshup feminist club. I nominate you as prez!
Seriously, I get the same feeling from people who say "its okay, i wont leave her", as if he is being merciful by not leaving her!
But one thing strikes true. For those who say they would have a serious problem if their spouse lied to them about the infertility, or hid it...would you guys, or even women, divorce your spouse, or even leave her or take a second wife (against her wish, if she's happy with it, then kuddos to her), etc KNOWING the INSANE pressure and stigma on infertile women in our society...I mean, wouldn't you let the lie go as it was made because of intense societal pressure and fear of being rejected as a human being...?
It's very simple. In our desi culture, the following scenarios apply:
A. Finding out after marriage:
Guy is impotent - Woman typically does not leave him. Social pressure too high. Hides the truth, may even claim that she is the one who is infertile.
Probability of woman staying on in marriage: 95%.
Woman is infertile - Man will
1. be shocked,
2. if he loves her sincerely, still stay with her, and may or may not be miserable, depends on their relationship after the discovery
3. if he loves her periodically, stay with her but will at sometime consider leaving her or a remarriage
Social pressures will be felt most acutely all of a sudden by men in these situations. The fact that the bathroom sink has been leaking for three months will not make a difference, but their colleague's son's picture will bring instantaneous tears to their eyes.
Probability of man staying on in marriage: 55%.
B. finding out before marriage (thru tests, pre-marital sex, whatnot):
Guy is impotent - end of relationship
Woman is infertile - typically end of relationship
In this case, the woman usually does the leaving more often than not, coz of family pressure, she herself wants to have kids (very few women in the world don't - it's in our sex), or if she's the promiscuous type, she'll find someone else who can give her what she wants. Because she is not yet bonded, she can exercise her freedom and usually does. Very few women will stay with a man they have found out to be impotent.
So, women are usually selfish when it comes to pre-marital things, coz then they don't have husbands to tie their legs up naa (metaphorically speaking - yes Pakora, I do know what metaphors are, surprise surprise..).
And men - typically - will do the (drastic and often drama-accompanied) leaving after marriage, because for men before marriage/after marriage doesn't matter - sex is sex. After they've married someone and used them long enuf and gotten tired of them and their wailing and their sobbing and their families, the minute a chance comes up to improve on their personal situation (as in get a new piece), they'll leap at it. Typically.
There now.. that's all cleared up for you my dear. Enjoy a fertile and happy life while u can. ;)
I would like to comment on the same subject with the reference of MR Wax..
Wax raised important point regarding infertility of a girl, in Pakistani and Indian culture with 2-3 siters waiting to get married and more...
well my point is..
Lets say she got married by not telling the husband about the infertility. but this thing will be disclosed later on. Things might take diffrent turns. and the situation of divorce might arrise.. ( as mostly happens in pakitani and indian culture ), which is even more worst scenerio for the girl , girl family and for the girls sisters who are waiting for good proposals.. certainly these sort of things cannot be kept unknown in pakistani culture. and can lead to more disasterous situation...
well certainly telling a lie may solve the problem in the start, but after effects could be more worse..
moreover I beleive honesty is the best policy. lies and misinformation certainly brings diffrences in hearts of husband and wife. since not every one is perfect and cannot behave in ideal way, and cannot go on..
As far as the situation of declining of rishta is concerned. many people including me beleive " risthay asmaano per banaye jate hain" , well certainly situation might become diffrent, difficult but beeleive Allah and effort can certainly resovle the problem.
certainly these factors are not in hands of human beings. So one must think rationally and should also think from other people perspective as " what if I was in the same situation as of that infertile women" well this will certainly give you the right answer and a pathway to your decesion, which will be acceptable by more people... and we should seek forgiveness and health from Allah, for he is the most mercifull...
First of all, let's get this cleared up, you can know if you are infertile if you aren't married.........the chastity belt has nothing to do with it...........there are women you have cysts on their ovaries and if that happens sometimes they cyst as well as a portion or the entire ovary needs to be removed......so, therefore infertility is probable if both ovaries need to be removed. As women, we needed to be educated as well as informed about our own bodies.
I think it is a man's right to know beforehand if the woman is infertile.<<< >>>Fertility is something i see as important and as a personal thing wouldn't marry someone who was infertile.
<<<
What about woman's right to know about you in case you are shooting blanks? You seem to be single, how are you so sure about your own fertility?
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ChannMahi,
kudos, and applause...........and there are men like that out there......not only that i've heard of cases where due to genetics the sperm actually destroys the egg so therefore making it impossible for the conception...........
For me, I believe Children are important and a crucial part of married life. I donāt think it is justified to blame any of the partners in this matter.
If the man is infertile then woman should have this freedom to find other means of conceiving a baby (if she wishes to have one of her own) . And she is justified to ask for divorce from her husband.
Of course Man should have this same freedom also but I donāt believe he should divorce his First wife just because she is infertile rather he should marry another wife if he is capable of supporting both.
umm Gymno - this thread isn't limited to Pakistani couples in Pakistan...
furthermore, even in villages there are OBGYNS and other types of doctors that can confirm infertility.
Not just cysts -- one also knows if one is infertile by weird menstrual cycles, cancers, physical injury, etc. And many people in Pakistan DO find out before marriage, some way or the other, that they're infertile. I know things are backwards there, but they are advanced enough to figure out if a woman is infertile or not.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
umm Gymno - this thread isn't limited to Pakistani couples in Pakistan...
furthermore, even in villages there are OBGYNS and other types of doctors that can confirm infertility.
Not just cysts -- one also knows if one is infertile by weird menstrual cycles, cancers, physical injury, etc. And many people in Pakistan DO find out before marriage, some way or the other, that they're infertile. I know things are backwards there, but they are advanced enough to figure out if a woman is infertile or not.
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Thank you PCG :)
Part of family is children in our meaning of family
But I WOULDNT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST INFERTILE MAN OR WOMAN B/c its beyond there fault .
PCG still if you take 100 young girls of 18 .Almost i in thousand might have observable or examinable reason of Infertility & NOT all of them be untreatable
Overall infertility is 5% approximately & of them only one in thousand may be able to know & have what may turn out to be a reversible cause meaning treatable
In my opinon majority of the infertility of course in India pakistan is discovered AFTER marriage .Which is GOOD .b/c most of them already have formed husband wife bond which generally is good for whatever solution as a couple they arrive at ...
I must say men are infertile too & may be just as many as women & i am not for special acceptence of such men & a woman has right to be mother indeed! .
Ana
As i have stated, i want children so i would prefer a fertile woman over an infertile woman, fertility is important to me so i see nothing wrong with choosing someone fertile over someone infertile. The simple point of a fertile woman can have kids, the other can't. So from my perspective which is to me is that is important to have kids so who will i choose?
I'm not prejudice, can I ask, which woman wants to be infertile, none! so why then is their criticism for a man who sees fertility as a good thing, it is!
So yes it is a defect, just like impotency is a defect in men. I hope that is clear enough for you. Infertility is not a good thing but it is not something i would look down at a woman for but it is not someone i would marry. I wiouldn't marry someone who couldn't speak english for example, not because i think they are bad people but they don't fit what i want from my marriage partner. So as i said, to different people it may mean different things, but not for a second does anyone see infertility as a benefit so why when i say i prefer a fertile woman do i get criticism.
I am sure you wouldn't prefer an impotent man over a fertile man for instance that is if having children of your own is important to you.
PCG
For a man to marry against his wifes wishes is Haram, it is compulsory to get wifes permission in all cases. To say that one would leave based on a lie is a reality call. There are other factors to think about as well and only if in the reality can one be for certain.
Flamez
On decling a rishta based on fertility. I don't see the problem and i can't see why there is criticism. If a man or woman is infertile that is obviously unfortunate but that does not mean that a man that wants children should marry an infertile woman becuase in the long run this will ruin the marriage as there will always be that emptiness as he does not have his own flesh and blood. And it is the same for women, if they want children then they are entitled to decline someone if they are not fertile.
Then on the other angle a man or woman may not see it a serious issue if their wife,husband can't have kids as it is not something which is a big part of their life together and again this is not wrong but a point of view.
A man who gets married to an infertile woman is not an angel as it may be something that doesn't matter to him, on the other hand someone who declines someone becuase they are infertile is not a Shaytaan because kids of their own ARE imprtant to them. Every individual has a different view of exactly what is their dream marriage. A dream marriage for me involves children of our own and a mother that loves her children amongst other things. I wouldn't marry a woman who doesn't want kids if she is fertile as again her loving her children is a prerequisite i set. For some a dream marriage may not involve children and so be it. I have no dispute and may they live happily and prosper.
For some it is a big issue for some it isn't. Neither is wrong but just hold different priorities. Some love the concept of children and want some of their own. Some can live with the fact that they won't have children and then they will happily marry someone infertile as it is not an issue to them.
Oh and just to add, to some on this forum, please don't turn the issue of infertility into something about oppressed women. Women aren't the only ones that suffer so if you want to be feminists so be it, but i don't see how it fits in with this topic as it something that both MALE and FEMALE suffer and both MALE and FEMALE are declined for marriage as Ana said. Ana you said women decline because they are expected to have children. This is just your female bias coming in. You seem to forget that women actually like the concept of having children of their own and love the idea of bringing up their own children, just like a man likes the concept of children.
If you are going to use this argument i might as well say men don't want children but are pressured into carrying on the family tree and keeping the generation going. Now I'm a masculinist, look how us men are being oppressed into having children just to keep the family going. Now do you see the stupidity of the argument. Women love children as do men. Women turn down infertile men becuase they want kids and a man can't provide them. A man turns down an infertile woman because he wants kids. Simple isn't it.
Or is it women feels pressure to have children so declines infertile man or man declines infertile woman because of pressure to carry on family tree.
As i said stick to the topic which is infertility which is both a MALE and FEMALE problem.
I dont know who u adressed this to ā¦talking to me :k:
Do you think there are enough men for women like you?
If not where can you "get it " without having tobe pregnant for 9 months & be painfull & worse than that is nurturing & nursing children for at least 18 (but in reality all your life)
No body was turning it into a feminist issue............i was suggesting certain cases where it is evident........don't need to take things personally..............
It is my opinion that women should know what is going on with their bodily functions so that they don't lead to medical conditions that could have been dealt with before they got worse.
PCG
I didn't say anyone was against it. Ana mentioned in her post about how women are expected to have babies and that is why they have them. I disagree, women and men both like the idea of nurturing and bringing up children of their own flesh and blood and women don't turn down infertile men because of desi culture but infact because they just like men want a partner that is fertile.
Khawateen O Hazaraat
(Ladies & Gents)
I am new here, as you can tell not a regular Joe that you guys have been seeing from the past interactions. Felt like adding my 2 cents to the subject going on.
PCG with all due respect and no offence to any one who has posted their opinions and facts I am going to dare to say that in desi culture which is indo-pak. Weather its on the soil or off we are still from the same roots and somethingās cant be changed in general. I am not a very religious guy so cant give you facts under the light of Islam. However, Pakistan is my birthplace and that is where I grew up but I have lived most of my life abroad in U.S.A. I have witnessed both sides the ABCD's and FOB's and the natives of our region.
In Pakistan if a man is not capable to have a kid is in general known as a "KHUSRA" higrha"Chukka" NaMard"and a female with a similar problem is titled with "BANJH" or "KHUSRI" or a rep of family planing org. ha ha ha now I know these things are funny but its true.
Majority of people in that culture are not literate enough, and if by chance they do get educated and wanna be broad minded the rest of the family and the gossipers do not let them dare making them selves bold enough to admit that they are the third kind. Although in fact its just a physical or a genetic medical problem which has nothing to do with someoneās manly hood or womanly hood or can I say feminity.
I say we should start educating our people how to accept and work with shortcomings of life. Instead of abandoning the people who are suffering from something that is not even their fault lets workout something so they will at least not feel disrespected or a lesser of a person than the so called norms.
Lets beg the molvie sahib to have mercy on the nation and feed them with logical Islamic solutions. If I have stepped on any toes, I am sorry for that.
Sorry if my colourfull emoticon (for playfull reasons) make you feel i am taking it personally .
I understand the anger of feminist for the past injusticeses.Not even the fairest & most perfect society can GURANTEE 100% perfection.Somewhere ,sometime any or someone 's misuse ,misscarriage of justice do occur .
But too much anger cause bitterness & that leads to SELF DAMAGE .
Although it may sound SAINTLY but its good to think" kindly of mankind & in the long run they WILL BE".
Its no fun being paranoid thinking 24/7 that someone is out there to GET YOU .You canāt make paranoia your life .
Hence to think it is male conspiracy to make women SUFFER pain,pregnancy etc. etc. why such belligerence & anger was never claimed before ?
Believe me YOUR SISTERS suffered more than 10 times more & died probablly as many times more giving birth to children .
Modern OBGYN is safe painless & far superior than few years ago .What is the point NOW against childbirth that makes it so bad.You cant count all the time sacrifices you have to make ā¦then you are not commited to the common cause & goal
Again then if you stll can find a partner willing to be childles youcould :k:.
Pcg
Thank you for the compliment .
I hope i dont impose on you for the wrong reason.I dont want to be smothering your or anyone .Plz read my post above for what i mean by
:nono:
