Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
Mods: Queer took the things out of context.. tell him to stop jumping up and down now .. thanks
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
aq i have to agree with queer here. Pardon my ignorance i honestly dont understand point of your quote i am not disrespecting it from any where but what was the point here? i am compeletely confused]
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
The point was to merely show that when people can take verses of Quran out of context then it is no surprise to see people taking words of a human out of Context, and when pointed they jump up and down. and to understand my point read post # 1 in context of post #5 :-P
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
since you are going so extreme in your hypothetical situation why not assume that men in this hypothetical situation have 2 organs each. problem solved.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
dude, when someone says here is the book and it applies to all people for all times to come…what context are you talking about? either things can be said in a context to apply in that context for some specific time or they apply all times to come. you guys have not still decided that after 1400 years. so no one is expecting you or Naik to clear things up now. Muslims are in perpetual confusion…on any issue..and I mean take any issue in Islam, some agree some disagree…with same passion.
examples: slavery…you can argue with equal passion that it is halaal or take the opposite stance and say it is haraam. I can show you large amount of material on both views from Muslims.
but here in doctor naik’s case, no one is even arguing about his quotes and verses…we are showing how his arguments supposedly made from common sense point of view are such a non-sense.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
dude: to understand quran, there are two things to consider... first is the original context during the time when it was revealed (yes the 7th century... you guys favorite one) and then apply that in the context of today..
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
**two things.
- i dont see how what i quoted in the other thread is out of context in any way. if you dont think saying a woman has no option in america but to be married or be “public property” is offensive, i’d love to see you explain that to any american woman.**
I already addressed that in the second post beneath the one in which I accuse you of taking something out of context. I don’t think that the only options are “marry a married man” or “become public property”. Single women masturbate :k:
Again, like I said, this guy’s comments are actually a philosophical thought-experiment. One of my college majors was philosophy, and I could NEVER understand the logic behind these experiments. The term “experiement” is a joke, because they’re impractical and unreal examples. Reality doesn’t work this way, so you can’t explain Quranic concepts with thought experiments. You have to explain them with reality.
The reality is that by NATURE men are polyamorous. They want to be engaged in multiple relationships, all at the same time, regardless of what women think.
God was okay with Solomon having hundreds of wives and concubines. Muslims believe in Solomon as a prophet! But Prophets are for the most part infallible or close to it at least.
So, God must be okay with hundreds of wives, just as He is okay with wine. Its how you use it and abuse it that matters.
Polygamy was fine in the old days when the human population was low. Now its growing exponentially (well technically, its slowed down a bit, but its still growing, just not at an exponential rate). So today, having a polygamous marriage is not something that is good for every guy to do. It would make the growth rate skyrocket, as if its not high enough.
Polygamous families were also methods used in the old days to accumulate power. The more wives you have, the more offspring → more power and control. This is how some tribes often beat others and gained power. Just by sheer manpower. Also, more offspring means more land that your family owns. It means higher percent of the grand economy is run by your family, etc.
You can’t have that in today’s society - it would screw up the system royally. And God probably knew this and that’s why the Quran limited men up to 4 wives, put stringent conditions on it, that most men of today would be wise to keep to one. And the Quran, unlike most other religious books, PROMOTES monogamy, merely allowing polygamy on the side for those FEW men who can actually handle it.
Plus, with lust being cast out as the main factor behind marraige, you wont see too many polygamous marriages in normal circumstances, anyway.
Don’t judge Islam by the way people actually practice it today, btw.
2. dr sahab seems to know the exactly percentage of gay men, but someone needs to tell him about lesbians. or maybe he thinks arousal and orgasm on the female partners side are inconsequential in marriage.
Like I said, his thought-experiment is ideal and unrealistic. Again, it doesn’t work to explain a Quranic concept.
He wont take into account gay men in his thought experiment, because in an Islamic utopia, such men would not exist. Nor would lesbians.
Again, if you were to make a real life description of the actual problem, you would see that man-woman ratios actually is not a major reason for polygamy being ALLOWED.
It has more to do with man’s natural biological instincts and population dynamics, and most of all - power and control.
And that is why, in the end, we’re all pigs. Pigs and piggesses. Hail o bloody human race.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
perhaps you're overthinking it pcg
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
^ dude, I'm wired tonite.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
i have no idea what wired means, but consider unwiring yourself. you sound disturbed because of it.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
pcg,
firstly, i am not questioning polygamy. thats another discussion, spare me your semitic mythology lecture, not interested.
what i am questioning though is the rather moronic justification Dr.Naik has provided for polygamy, replete with immature presumptions on american women and their options. is this the kind of example a supposedly eminent islamic scholar quotes?
on one hand you say his example is not a reflection of reality, serves no purpose in justifying the quranic point Dr. Naik is trying to illustrate, but on the other hand you say you think its justified within context. how is he justified in slinging mud at american women for no apparent purpose in the end?
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
Its justified within the context which is a philosophical thought-experiment. He is not deliberately throwing must at American women, but he is using the experiment for no purpose since those experiments are jack crap to begin with.
You're taking it out of context and saying he's trying to take a jab at women. I'm saying that within the context of that though-experiment, what he's saying would be right. Philosophically, its valid.
I just don't agree with thought-experiments, but my philosophy professors and people in the field of argumentation and debates would think otherwise.
:)
Clear now?
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second.
In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life.
There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
pcg, how would you like it if i were an influential leader, and while addressing a gathering of people who trust in me a lot, i let rip a little philosophical thought experiment on how pakistani women have no options but to be wives or forced into prostitution by their families, when it wont even prove any point i want to make? does it come across as needless and offensive? crass and insensitive? thanks much.
just look at OMG above, and how well he has learnt from his allegoric excellency, Dr Naik.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
You still don't understand.
With respect to the thought-experiment, the two-choices for women that seem offensive are valid.
But the overall thought-experiment is invalid as a fundamental approach to explaining Islam as a way of life.
I don't know how much clearer to make this simple concept to you. He wasn't saying that in reality, unmarried women have these two choices. When you quoted out of context, I thought according to this guy, I am Public Property. When in reality, if taken in context, his comments mean jack shyte and are nonsensical babble. If taken in context, I'm actually not Public Property. Ya know why? Because he's not talking about reality!
So he shouldn't be talking in the first place!
Maybe he was a bio-philosophy major in college. I was one. Its hard work to keep the two thought processes distinct in practice.
I think we're on nearby pages of the same book.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
As to your implication that this was a deliberate attempt to malign women - I don't think so. I think this is his carelessness and his idiotic attempts to use a philosophical tool in the realm of descriptive reality.
You can't use thought experiments when solving genetic problems or describing human anatomy. And that's what he's trying to do, sadly.
If I get time away from this dratted website, I'll write to him to please clarify his thoughts on his website, because they're very misleading.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
wow thats a big load of bullcrap.
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
Queer: stop taking things out of context 
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
Good for pleasure industry......nothing could be healthier....
Re: Females - Polygamy. Their only choice?
Although I have to still admit that this Doctor Sahab, much like many other maulvis, does not understand that a single woman can live a fulfilling life >>>>>>>>>>
pcg!
I know an eminent Muslim female Consultant Physician who is nearing 50,remained single all her life,to fulfill her ambitions as physician,she once remarked....."I FEEL EXTREMLEY SAD AT THIS STAGE OF MY LIFE,I AM PREPARED TO GIVE UP MY STETHOSCOPE(profession)FOR A HUSBAND"