Since my last thread absolutely failed to entertain me. This will be a discussion where I promise to respond. You may not like what I have to say but I will respond. So there seems to be this misconception that the concept of equality between the genders does not exist in the West or rather anywhere in the world. While this is certainly true in the case of Niger, Saudi Arabi and many other countries in Africa and Asia, it isn’t true in Europe, the Americas or Australia.
Considering there has been ample emotional whining about the state of women in the world, I propose a simple idea. We go through the very basic human rights and see if they apply to cases in the West and the rest of the world. We start with the west because it has by far the best standard of female empowerment and also because that is the only culture most of you guppans know.
I of course take the stand that in the West female empowerment has achieved its goal and women are equal to men and there are extremely few cases of absolute pure discrimination based on gender.
The premise from a few threads is that most guppans believe women do not have equality or equity in the West. That women are still discriminated against on basic issues. I wish to discuss the demerits of such nonesense.
Women in the West have achieved equity and equality with men.
Yes, they have.. The thing is the older generation in the west along with the conservatives/religious folks still haven’t accepted the idea of gender equality. some people still struggle with it and this is where most discrimination comes from. Apart from this, we all do pretty well but it takes a toll on women who have to constantly prove their worth to skeptical idiots aka Desi men…
Define older generation. The issue of universal suffrage was in the 1920s. The hippy and equality movement was in the 1960s and 1970s. By those standards anybody who doesn't accept gender equality in the West would be in there 60s or more. There views don't really count. The baby boomers however do believe in gender equality.
Struggle with what discrimination exactly? Lets deal with concrete issues.
I do not disagree with you in principle, but I disagree with you in practical terms. The legal promise of equal rights between men and women does not always translate to actual equitable treatment of both genders. Gender discrimination is in current times more subtle and a result of attitudes and not access. How do you legislate people to think of and to treat women equal to their male counterparts? You can't. And something you've discounted is the exporting of gender bias from nations and communities who do not consider women to be equal to men - it seems that with every two steps forward women take, the old world ignorance takes the women's movement back one step.
Define older generation. The issue of universal suffrage was in the 1920s. The hippy and equality movement was in the 1960s and 1970s. By those standards anybody who doesn't accept gender equality in the West would be in there 60s or more. There views don't really count. The baby boomers however do believe in gender equality.
Struggle with what discrimination exactly? Lets deal with concrete issues.
You couldn't be more wrong. It's the older generation, people in their 60s and older, who still own more corporations than the baby boomers. Things are changing and I won't be surprised to see discrimination against women diminish almost completely in a decade or two. It's only a matter of time...
And as long as the rest of the world doesn't change its attitude, women will continue to face discrimination..
Its interesting to note both of you speak in abstracts and not in concrete terms. You provide no examples, no text and real issues of discrimination. How many people do you know in your every day life that discriminate against you at the store, office or public areas because of your gender?
Do you have to stand in a seperate line? Fill out separate forms? Do anything different than a man in all practical aspects of life?
err...the baby boomers form the population explosion the US had after the second world war. A majority of them form the educated middle class. These are the masses that form the basis of public opinion.
Its interesting to note both of you speak in abstracts and not in concrete terms. You provide no examples, no text and real issues of discrimination. How many people do you know in your every day life that discriminate against you at the store, office or public areas because of your gender?
Do you have to stand in a seperate line? Fill out separate forms? Do anything different than a man in all practical aspects of life?
err...the baby boomers form the population explosion the US had after the second world war. A majority of them form the educated middle class. These are the masses that form the basis of public opinion.
No wonder you can't see the discrimination. It's already been said that it's very subtle. For every dollar a man makes, a woman in the same position makes 60cents. Employers try to fire pregnant women all the time! They look for reasons to let them go. I have seen so many women getting terminated for this reason. They are obviously very discreet about it.
Wait a minute. So a business decision not to pay two people for the same job is now gender discrimination? When someone goes on maternity leave you need a replacement. You need to hire that person, train them and get them all sorted only to find out the person on leave is back and you don't need this guy anymore. For a good 8 months you are paying 2 people for the same job which only 1 person is doing. From a business point of view it is hardly a profit making idea correct?
I would like to see the facts that back up that statistic. The reason I say that is because minimum wage is not gender biased and most multinational companies have a strict pay structure which is based on experience and the contract you sign. That no longer is gender biased. I believe it is illegal in the EU to pay a woman less for the same job a man is doing.
Concrete examples of how women still don't enjoy equitable treatment in society: 1) Subtle and not so subtle exclusion of women from networking and business networking opportunities. I've heard firsthand from female lawyers and executives who weren't invited by the old boys clubs to social events and thus they lost out on face time and advancement opportunities. 2) when women take time off to raise kids it means interrupting one's career and sometimes leaves women years behind their male colleagues trying to play catch up. 3) in a lot of households where the woman works outside of the home, she still does the lion's share of housework at home. 4) despite women attending universities in larger numbers than men, as a percentage of senior executives, women are far behind men 5) for similar jobs, women's pay is less than men's. 6). As a society, people only seem to give recognition to professional sport teams of men's sports.
Wait a minute. So a business decision not to pay two people for the same job is now gender discrimination? When someone goes on maternity leave you need a replacement. You need to hire that person, train them and get them all sorted only to find out the person on leave is back and you don't need this guy anymore.** For a good 8 months you are paying 2 people for the same job which only 1 person is doing**. From a business point of view it is hardly a profit making idea correct?
I can't believe you don't see this as gender discrimination. Women don't have babies for their own sake. The day men start having babies, we will stop complaining! Women do not get pregnant for fun. Regardless of what you believe, many employers let pregnant women go for "confidential" reasons. confidential my behind! As a matter of fact my friend at my old job was let go after having been with the company for 8 years. They came up with a bogus reason to fire her. They reserve the right to terminate anyone with or without reason. If this isn't discrimination then I don't know what is!
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I would like to see the facts that back up that statistic. The reason I say that is because minimum wage is not gender biased and most multinational companies have a strict pay structure which is based on experience and the contract you sign. That no longer is gender biased. I believe it is illegal in the EU to pay a woman less for the same job a man is doing.
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Yes, I know! It doesn't happen at the time of the employment. As people move up within their respective organizations, the women aren't offered the same pay as their male counterparts for the same promotion. I see this changing though. The funny thing is childrenless single women have been reported to earn the same as their male counterparts. Unfortunately this entire trend is leaving women wanting to remain single and children-free... Freedom for women doesn't come without a cost. Haven't I said this before?
This is not a concrete example because the assumption is that that female colleague was excluded because of her gender.
That is an opportunity cost. You either have kids or a career. You have to give up one for the other.
How is that discrimination? That is a domestic household issue. And most single people do that anyway.
That is simple bad maths on your part. Executives are hitting their 50s easily. That means what? They had their teritary education in the 1970s. The rise in female university students is a 20 year old issue. Not a 50 year old issue. Its factually incorrect to correlate the two. However if the case remains in 20 more years, then yes you have a valid point. But before then no.
Again i keep hearing this but no proof.
Men care more about sports. Ever seen a desi woman sit down to watch the female cricket team? Nope. Ever seen men? Yes.
I can't believe you don't see this as gender discrimination. Women don't have babies for their own sake. The day men start having babies, we will stop complaining! Women do not get pregnant for fun. Regardless of what you believe, many employers let pregnant women go for "confidential" reasons. confidential my behind! As a matter of fact my friend at my old job was let go after having been with the company for 8 years. They came up with a bogus reason to fire her. They reserve the right to terminate anyone with or without reason. If this isn't discrimination then I don't know what is!
Theorist does a woman need to have a child? Is it a vital function of life? Its an opportunity cost. Your career or your family. Men make this choice every day. I know I do. I rather do field work because it pays well, I get to play soldier and it is rare work nobody else can do. I do this at the expense of a social life, a normal living and so much more. But it is an opportunity cost. You choose to do one or the other. Women no longer need to procreate to define themselves as woman. That is the very nature of female empowerment.
Was the reason really bogus or only that you felt it was bogus. Child birth is no longer a requirement for self-worth. Its a choice you make which a lot of women do very regularly.
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Yes, I know! It doesn't happen at the time of the employment. As people move up within their respective organizations, the women aren't offered the same pay as their male counterparts for the same promotion. I see this changing though. The funny thing is childrenless single women have been reported to earn the same as their male counterparts. Unfortunately this entire trend is leaving women wanting to remain single and children-free... Freedom for women doesn't come without a cost. Haven't I said this before?
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So you do realize you just countered your own point right?
Theorist does a woman need to have a child? Is it a vital function of life? Its an opportunity cost. Your career or your family. Men make this choice every day. I know I do. I rather do field work because it pays well, I get to play soldier and it is rare work nobody else can do. I do this at the expense of a social life, a normal living and so much more. But it is an opportunity cost. You choose to do one or the other. Women no longer need to procreate to define themselves as woman. That is the very nature of female empowerment.
Was the reason really bogus or only that you felt it was bogus. Child birth is no longer a requirement for self-worth. Its a choice you make which a lot of women do very regularly.
So you do realize you just countered your own point right?
exactly dude, this subtle discrimination is making women want to remain single and childrenfree! They shouldn't have to fear motherhood to justify their demands for equal/better treatment professionally and socially. The fact that it is ONLY women that can have children at the moment is a very valid reason to be more accommodating to their needs. Unfortunately this accommodation comes with a price. Western women are afraid to have children because there's this fear that this will render them unproductive at work. This should not happen! Their pregnancy shouldn't threaten their employment status yet it does! Like I said, the day men can have babies, we will lose our right to complain. Until then, put up...
This is not a concrete example because the assumption is that that female colleague was excluded because of her gender.2. That is an opportunity cost. You either have kids or a career. You have to give up one for the other.3. How is that discrimination? That is a domestic household issue. And most single people do that anyway. 4. That is simple bad maths on your part. Executives are hitting their 50s easily. That means what? They had their teritary education in the 1970s. The rise in female university students is a 20 year old issue. Not a 50 year old issue. Its factually incorrect to correlate the two. However if the case remains in 20 more years, then yes you have a valid point. But before then no.5. Again i keep hearing this but no proof.6. Men care more about sports. Ever seen a desi woman sit down to watch the female cricket team? Nope. Ever seen men? Yes.
And this Sunshine, is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The dismissive and put upon attitude of men that says to women better than words can, that a woman's plight is not legitimate and that any inequity in treatment can be reasoned away. Men relegate women to the status of whiners who don't know how good they have it. These same men, without once trying to gain an empathetic perspective on what a woman goes through, render judgment about women which at best, makes a woman doubt herself and at worse, denigrates women.
exactly dude, this subtle discrimination is making women want to remain single and childrenfree! They shouldn't have to fear motherhood to justify their demands for equal/better treatment professionally and socially. The fact that it is ONLY women that can have children at the moment is a very valid reason to be more accommodating to their needs. Unfortunately this accommodation comes with a price. Western women are afraid to have children because there's this fear that this will render them unproductive at work. This should not happen! Their pregnancy shouldn't threaten their employment status yet it does! Like I said, the day men can have babies, we will lose our right to complain. Until then, put up...
People make choices every day of their life. That does not mean that they are making discriminating choices or being forced into such choices because of their gender. I am sorry your first statement is absolutely false.
There are women in this day and age who still take a family over a job. That is a choice they make. Nobody is forcing them. You can stay married and not have kids. Marriage does not mean you have 20 kids.
Its interesting to note that both you and Sehrysh are empowered women yet stick to the stereotypical ideals of the 1960s. A woman does not have to have a kid to feel good about herself. A woman does not need a man to define her. She is enough to define herself. That is why she gets an education, she gets a job and moves out on her own something she could not do 30 or 40 years ago.
However that does not mean she can have the family she had as a kid. None of us can. The family nucleus has changed dramatically and if you wish to be a modern empowered woman you can not live with 1960 ideals of family life.
Sehrsyh snookums (that is me being dismissive well patronizing but you get the idea) not everything stated is a slight to gender dynamics. Secondly I find it interesting you use the phrase "reasoned away". You obviously agree most responses by the female gender on such matters are emotional and not logically.
However back to my original response. With the exception of point 1 all of it is factual and logical. Men do watch the WNBA. How many women do you know that watch women's sports. Don't blame gender for things that even women do not do.
