Female equality

[Theorist]

Re: Female equality

^Yeah, we should really stop having kids. Let's see how fast you'll change your mind about how we have a great impact on you and the rest of the world in 20 years.

Dude, I don't want kids. Women don't have to have kids to feel good about themselves, I know I don't. I said this earlier, they don't have kids for their sake. It's a natural process. They cannot avoid it! No birth control method offers 100% pregnancy prevention. They would have to get their tubes tied to completely prevent unwelcome pregnancies or some other surgical process. It's funny how you can just sit behind your computer and judge our lives and the billions of women around the world.

[Ghost14]

Re: Female equality

You guys sound like you're upset that it's the women who have to have kids. Like CM said, it's an opportunity cost. Is it fair? No, but take it up with mother nature, not men. You don't see me whining about how women have all the power when it comes to sex.

You're right in saying that women can't have it all. They usually have to make a choice between their career or their kids. Again, not fair but it's not a guy's fault. I think Western culture is ridiculously flawed in trying to make the priorities of women the same as the priorities of men. I've read so many op-eds by former first and second wave feminists about how they felt deceived by the ideals that a few radical feminists pushed on the majority. I don't understand why women would value a career over their children when women themselves describe the strong bond they feel with their kids. Does it leave you more vulnerable financially? Yes, but that's where trust in your spouse comes into the equation, as well as the legal system, which is still set up on the basis that the woman stays home and takes care of the kids.

Also, that stat about women making less for every dollar a man makes, I think that stat is outdated. Does it account for position? For experience? Like you mentioned, women don't usually hold the highest paid positions in a field, so it's natural that the stats would show that men get paid more; the men in the upper pay brackets skew the results. People throw that stat around all the time without any information on where the number came from, and whether the study controlled for the factors I mentioned above.

Also, some people actually don't negotiate their salaries very well and it could be that women are more timid by nature so they get paid less, that's capitalism at it's finest. Don't blame an employer for paying someone less if they can get away with it. I'm not saying that women do get paid less (I want to see the source on that stat), but this could be an explanation for it.

[Theorist]

Re: Female equality

You guys sound like you're upset that it's the women who have to have kids. Like CM said, it's an opportunity cost. Is it fair? No, but take it up with mother nature, not men. You don't see me whining about how women have all the power when it comes to sex.

Right, yet it's men like CM constantly opening up dumb threads to get our perspective on it. He asked for it..

[QUOTE]
You're right in saying that women can't have it all. They usually have to make a choice between their career or their kids. Again, not fair but it's not a guy's fault. I think Western culture is ridiculously flawed in trying to make the priorities of women the same as the priorities of men. I've read so many op-eds by former first and second wave feminists about how they felt deceived by the ideals that a few radical feminists pushed on the majority.** I don't understand why women would value a career over their children when women themselves describe the strong bond they feel with their kids. Does it leave you more vulnerable financially?** Yes, but that's where trust in your spouse comes into the equation, as well as the legal system, which is still set up on the basis that the woman stays home and takes care of the kids.
[/QUOTE]

not all of us feel that way.. The world expects all women to have the motherly instincts. It's not true. Women didn't really take up jobs until the WWII. They can do as well outside as they can to run a household. You are forgetting that in a country like America, you need more than one income to earn a decent living.

[QUOTE]
Also, that stat about women making less for every dollar a man makes*, I think that stat is outdated*. Does it account for position? For experience? Like you mentioned, women don't usually hold the highest paid positions in a field, so it's natural that the stats would show that men get paid more; the men in the upper pay brackets skew the results. People throw that stat around all the time without any information on where the number came from, and whether the study controlled for the factors I mentioned above.
[/QUOTE]

And it's changing because women do not want to have children and get married like they did 20 30 years ago.

[QUOTE]
Also, some people actually don't negotiate their salaries very well and it could be that women are more timid by nature so they get paid less, that's capitalism at it's finest. Don't blame an employer for paying someone less if they can get away with it. I'm not saying that women do get paid less (I want to see the source on that stat), but this could be an explanation for it.
[/QUOTE]

That may be... Again, I don't care what you or CM thinks. Arguing with you won't change anything. I have already said this, I am happy with the way things are shaping up for women. You and other men may not see it but then again I don't expect you to. It's like saying "So what if you are a slave, I may not pay you but don't I care for you? Don't I treat you nicely? Don't I give you food and clothes?" Well, it's not enough... You can't put a price on freedom.

[Ghost14]

Re: Female equality

Wow it's a little offensive that you think I'm upset about women having equality. My point is that equality has been achieved as far as legal steps are concerned. It's actually skewed towards women. "The way it's going" is going to cause a huge backlash against feminists.

That's fair about your point that some women don't want kids etc. It's your choice and you're free to make it so there's no problem.

[TheNoodle]

Re: Female equality

Okay, serious mode.

My professor is a 48 year old married woman who does not want to have any kids, she forced her husband to get a vesactomy. And you'd be surprised at the number of desi women these days who don't want kids either, and some of these here in the West actually deprive their men of an offspring just because they can, this is where I believe the law has failed us men, it's a slow, painful systematic castration of the modern man.

"One thousand years from now, there'll be no guys and no girls, just wankers" - Trainspotting

[cherryontop]

Re: Female equality

You guys sound like you're upset that it's the women who have to have kids. Like CM said, it's an opportunity cost. Is it fair? No, but take it up with mother nature, not men. You don't see me whining about how women have all the power when it comes to sex.

You're right in saying that women can't have it all. They usually have to make a choice between their career or their kids. Again, not fair but it's not a guy's fault. I think Western culture is ridiculously flawed in trying to make the priorities of women the same as the priorities of men. I've read so many op-eds by former first and second wave feminists about how they felt deceived by the ideals that a few radical feminists pushed on the majority. I don't understand why women would value a career over their children when women themselves describe the strong bond they feel with their kids. Does it leave you more vulnerable financially? Yes, but that's where trust in your spouse comes into the equation, as well as the legal system, which is still set up on the basis that the woman stays home and takes care of the kids.

Also, that stat about women making less for every dollar a man makes, I think that stat is outdated. Does it account for position? For experience? Like you mentioned, women don't usually hold the highest paid positions in a field, so it's natural that the stats would show that men get paid more; the men in the upper pay brackets skew the results. People throw that stat around all the time without any information on where the number came from, and whether the study controlled for the factors I mentioned above.

Also, some people actually don't negotiate their salaries very well and it could be that women are more timid by nature so they get paid less, that's capitalism at it's finest. Don't blame an employer for paying someone less if they can get away with it. I'm not saying that women do get paid less (I want to see the source on that stat), but this could be an explanation for it.

I am a woman with a rather demanding career yet I agree with every word you have said. Women have actually done themselves a disservice by demanding to be treated 'just like men'. If biologically we are so different, how can we expect the same treatment in other aspects of life? It's best to just accept our differences for what they are and make peace with that. I don't know why women want it all.....men don't have it all so why are we so eager to make ourselves miserable by aiming to become a Big Law partner, raise 3 perfectly disciplined kids, maintain an impeccable house and have an active social life.

[cherryontop]

Re: Female equality

No matter what you all say, it's actually a very small minority of women that does not want kids. Most women DO want kids. They might postpone it till they are in their late 30's but rest assured, most women have not lost touch with their innate desire to have a child.

[kakaballi]

Re: Female equality

Concrete examples of how women still don't enjoy equitable treatment in society: 1) Subtle and not so subtle exclusion of women from networking and business networking opportunities. I've heard firsthand from female lawyers and executives who weren't invited by the old boys clubs to social events and thus they lost out on face time and advancement opportunities. 2) when women take time off to raise kids it means interrupting one's career and sometimes leaves women years behind their male colleagues trying to play catch up. 3) in a lot of households where the woman works outside of the home, she still does the lion's share of housework at home. 4) despite women attending universities in larger numbers than men, as a percentage of senior executives, women are far behind men 5) for similar jobs, women's pay is less than men's. 6). As a society, people only seem to give recognition to professional sport teams of men's sports.

what percentage of fashion magazines have men on covers?

[Ghost14]

Re: Female equality

I am a woman with a rather demanding career yet I agree with every word you have said. Women have actually done themselves a disservice by demanding to be treated 'just like men'. If biologically we are so different, how can we expect the same treatment in other aspects of life? It's best to just accept our differences for what they are and make peace with that. I don't know why women want it all.....men don't have it all so why are we so eager to make ourselves miserable by aiming to become a Big Law partner, raise 3 perfectly disciplined kids, maintain an impeccable house and have an active social life.

Thank you! That's my point. Those aren't inequalities those are facts of life, you can't have it all.

[Theorist]

Re: Female equality

I am a woman with a rather demanding career yet I agree with every word you have said. Women have actually done themselves a disservice by demanding to be treated** 'just like men'.** If biologically we are so different, how can we expect the same treatment in other aspects of life? It's best to just accept our differences for what they are and make peace with that. I don't know why women want it all.....men don't have it all so why are we so eager to make ourselves miserable by aiming to become a Big Law partner, raise 3 perfectly disciplined kids, maintain an impeccable house and have an active social life.

Women as not asking to be treated like MEN! That's a misconception. They want their workplace to be more accomodating of their natural needs. There's nothing wrong with it. Treating them like men will do the opposite. That's what I have been saying the whole time. They need to be more accomodating and it's turning up to be that way. I have no complaints and neither do most women.

This thread was meant to show that even though the western legal system caters to women more than men but social constraints are still there to somwhat hold women back. We should not demand to be treated like men. That's a crazy thing to say..we have our own needs and they should be recognized universally and they have been. People just need to change their mindset and accept it.

[kakaballi]

Re: Female equality

Women as not asking to be treated like MEN! That's a misconception. They want their workplace to be more accomodating of their natural needs.....

Meaning they want to be treated much better than men which means businesses spend more hiring less productive labour which goes against capitalistic conceptions of corporations.

[CM]

Re: Female equality

^Yeah, we should really stop having kids. Let's see how fast you'll change your mind about how we have a great impact on you and the rest of the world in 20 years.

Dude, I don't want kids. Women don't have to have kids to feel good about themselves, I know I don't. I said this earlier, they don't have kids for their sake. It's a natural process. They cannot avoid it! No birth control method offers 100% pregnancy prevention. They would have to get their tubes tied to completely prevent unwelcome pregnancies or some other surgical process. It's funny how you can just sit behind your computer and judge our lives and the billions of women around the world.

Its a choice to be made. Again 1960s ideals to a 2000's female empowered world. Its a choice. Simple as that. Work or have kids. You can not have both, that is not possible. And making a choice is by no means discrimination. Women do not need to have kids.