Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

[khoji]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

@psyah

I believe that in order to show something to be wrong in hadith you have to demonstrate the chain to be with untrustworthy narrators and for it to be less than muttawatir otherwise there is a tendency to stretch it towards a biased position purely because it seems to conflict with our intellect.

But chain of narrators being trustworthy is not the sole criterion. Otherwise one of the criteria would not have been that the tradition should not cnotradict Quran.

[khoji]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

@Ali_Syed

Some people do fast on 9th and 10th Muharram but I dont think they do it to celebrate something.

Yes, most people do not fast thinking that it is a day of celebration. They are therefore innocent.
Problem is with those who have told them to fast without telling them the reason they are fasting. And the reason is because they believe in some traditions that say that Ashura is a day of celebration for Muslims (hence fasting) because it was a day of celebrations for Jews.

There is no problem celebrating a Jewish holiday. Afterall we do have religion most aligned with Judaism. But the issue is that it is the same day when a huge tragedy happened in the history of Islam and the history of the world.
Now it makes no sense to fast EVERY YEAR on Ashura thinking that it was ordered by Prophet to celebrate Jewish holiday, and overlook Islam's own *tragedy*.

[smooth_guy]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

But chain of narrators being trustworthy is not the sole criterion. Otherwise one of the criteria would not have been that the tradition should not cnotradict Quran.

So you are saying Fasting as Jewish used to fast on Ashura is in contradiction with Quran? Quran gives example of previous nations in the Ayat in which Allah made Ramdhan fasting mandatory.
It is Allah's deen, Judaism was also Allah's deen. So if Allah continued the tradition (same as for Zabihah and many other things), it is not surprised. The purpose of fasting is to cleanse ourselves and to offer thanksgiving, composed by Allah as an act of worship for us. Same is the fasting on 9 ZilHajja and 9/10 of Muharram. Celebration and Jubilation are two different things. There are two days for jubiliation for Muslims Eid'ain.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

@muqawwee123

come on people. Allow people if they want to follow this practice of fasting based on some traditions. At the end its just nawafili roza, which can be be practiced on any day (except certain days). Why so fuss about it.

@Ali_Syed

Some people do fast on 9th and 10th Muharram but I dont think they do it to celebrate something.

aao hum tum kat len yahan se

[smooth_guy]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

Yes, most people do not fast thinking that it is a day of celebration. They are therefore innocent. Problem is with those who have told them to fast without telling them the reason they are fasting. And the reason is because they believe in some traditions that say that Ashura is a day of celebration for Muslims (hence fasting) because it was a day of celebrations for Jews.

There is no problem celebrating a Jewish holiday. Afterall we do have religion most aligned with Judaism. But the issue is that it is the same day when a huge tragedy happened in the history of Islam and the history of the world. Now it makes no sense to fast EVERY YEAR on Ashura thinking that it was ordered by Prophet to celebrate Jewish holiday, and overlook Islam's own *tragedy*.

Prophet's saying and act is 'muqqaddam' over any event that comes after. When and which tragedy was celebrated annually in the time of Prophet SAW? Nobody has given an answer to me on that. If we can are ordered to celebrate Eid al Azha to remember Ibrahim AS's obidience of Allah, why its strange to celebrate Musa AS's remarkable history changing event. Prophet's SAW order is order, we don't need to disect it if its Jewish tradition. You forget that it is Musa AS's miracle by the grace of Allah that they celebrated, not the wonders or deeds of Jewish people.

[psyah]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

But chain of narrators being trustworthy is not the sole criterion. Otherwise one of the criteria would not have been that the tradition should not cnotradict Quran.

The contradiction of Qur'an is not a criteria for you or me to decide ... that is also done by the scholars because they have to say where the hadith is specifying an exception to the general idea in the holy Qur'an - which is allowed and acceptable.

[psyah]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

Sa1eem ... you criteria is different to ours for determination of true hadith ... we do not inspect our sense of logic in to the hadith like you will do ... As far as I am concerned ...

The reason given in the hadith is dependent on the people giving the information ... Whereas other references to the same hadith indicate that the real reason for fasting on the 10th is because Sayyiduna Musa (AS) himself fasted on this day rather than the explanation that the Jews gave that this is when Musa (AS) and his people were saved on this day and Pharaoh was drowned - although this is hadith - the information in the hadith was given by Jews not by Allah (SWT) or any angel of Allah (SWT) - so we don't need to accept the aspect of the reason in the report, but we do need to accept the fact that fasting did happen on the 10th by RasoolAllah (SAW) and his companions, for whatever reason ... The fact that there is evidence Jews fasted on the 10th of Nisan is also a strong indicator.

Remember we are not talking about hukm here ... we are talking about fadzila ... and we do not reject hadith for fadzila ... but if they exhibit some weakness we merely do not accept them as hukm, but still exercise our choice to gain extra reward ...

Also, I say that fasting is a better way to commemorate the martyrdom of Sayyiduna Hussain (RA) than inflicting self-harm and falling into haram by doing so ...

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

Peace Sa1eem,

First of all, May Almighty Allah put us all on right path and bless us with right guidance. Ameen. And Brother Psyah, May Almighty Allah rewards you for your good efforts. Ameen.

Brother Psyah already explained very well about your query mentioned in post# 4. As far your concern about the hadith, that is a blatant lie, I therefore invite you to put up any hadith regarding ‘fasting on the day of Ashoora’ and I’ll try my best to provide you chain of narrators of those hadith, to convince you that it is NOT fabricated, false and lie ascribed to our Prophet Muhammad .

The hadith in the book ‘Prophetic Commentary on the Quran (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh))’ of Sahih Bukhari, Hadith No. 202, it is narrated** I****bn Abbas: When the Prophet arrived at Medina, the Jews were observing the fast on ‘Ashura’ (10th of Muharram) and they said, “This is the day when Moses became victorious over Pharaoh,” On that, the Prophet said to his companions, "You (Muslims) have more right to celebrate Moses’ victory than they have, so observe the fast on this day.**"

The Chain of narrators of above hadith are: Muhammad bin Bashar Bindar, who narrated from Muhammad bin Ja’far Ghandar, who narrates from Shu’bah bin Al Hajjaj, who narrated from Ja’afar bin Iyas Abi Wahshiyaa, who narrated from Sa’id bin Jubayr who narrates it from Ibn Abbas.

Question is who is Ibn Abbas? He is Abdullah bin Al-Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib bin Hashim bin Abd Mnanf bin Qusayyah bin Kilab bin Murrah. Her mother name is Umm Fadl Lubaba bint Al-Harith. Ibn Abbas born on 3rd BH aka 619 CE at Makkah and died in 68 AH aka 687 CE at Ta’aif, **after the death of our beloved Prophet **. He mostly stayed at Makkah and Madina and his interest was in Tafsir, recitation of Quran and narration.
His teacher/narrations are from Prophet Muhammad , al-'Abbas ibn 'Abd al-Muttalib, Umm Fadl Lubaba bint al-Harith, Fadl ibn al-'Abbas, Maymuna bint al-Harith, Abu Bakr As-Siddique, 'Uthman ibn 'Affaan, Ali ibn Abi Talib, 'Abdur Rahman Ibn 'Awf, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, Abu Dharr al-Ghaffari, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Tamim al-Dari, Khalid bin al-Walid, Usamah ibn Zayd, Hamal bin Malik bin al-Nabghah, al-Sa’b bin Juthama bin Qays, 'Ammar ibn Yasir, Abu Sa’id al-Khudri, Abu Talha Ansari, Abu Hurairah, Mu’awiya ibn Abu Sufyan, Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, ‘Aisha bint Abi Bakr, Asma’ bint Abi Bakr, Juwayriya bint al-Harith, Sawda bint Zam’a, Umm Hani bint Abi Talib, Umm Salamah, and Several Others r.a.

So in light of above, there is no doubt is left about the authentication of hadith narration regarding fasting on the day of Ashoora either on 9 and 10th or 10th and 11. Furthermore, it is not obligatory but as “Nafli” fasting. What is your problem if one fast on these day or not?

Last but not least, I’ll uploaded an image below which shows who was the teacher/students of Ibn Abbas r.a. for your reference.

Almighty Allah know best.

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Restored attachments:

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

@khoji

It is strange that the Prophet would make it a day of celebrations when later on his own grandson w, as to be killed along with all his male family members and women of Prophet’s own family enslaved.
Hussain, son of Ali and Fatima, a member of ahle bait, whom he called ‘sayyed a shabab e jannat’.

So what is this rejoicing about?

Peace khoji,

Nothing is strange here and i guess you are just confused. The Prophet ordered us to fast on these days a very long time ago. The death of Imam Hussain r.a. occured some 67 years after from the death of Prophet What He ordered was at that time which nothing have to do with the death of Imam Hussain r.a., We do not fast on these days as celebration but we follow what Prophet ordered us to do.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

@lethal_kamikaze

Peace Sa1eem,

First of all, May Almighty Allah put us all on right path and bless us with right guidance. Ameen. And Brother Psyah, May Almighty Allah rewards you for your good efforts. Ameen.

Brother Psyah already explained very well about your query mentioned in post# 4. As far your concern about the hadith, that is a blatant lie, I therefore invite you to put up any hadith regarding ‘fasting on the day of Ashoora’ and I’ll try my best to provide you chain of narrators of those hadith, to convince you that it is NOT fabricated, false and lie ascribed to our Prophet Muhammad :saw2: .

The hadith in the book ‘Prophetic Commentary on the Quran (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh))’ of Sahih Bukhari, Hadith No. 202, it is narrated** I****bn Abbas: When the Prophet arrived at Medina, the Jews were observing the fast on ‘Ashura’ (10th of Muharram) and they said, “This is the day when Moses became victorious over Pharaoh,” On that, the Prophet said to his companions, "You (Muslims) have more right to celebrate Moses’ victory than they have, so observe the fast on this day.**"

The Chain of narrators of above hadith are: Muhammad bin Bashar Bindar, who narrated from Muhammad bin Ja’far Ghandar, who narrates from Shu’bah bin Al Hajjaj, who narrated from Ja’afar bin Iyas Abi Wahshiyaa, who narrated from Sa’id bin Jubayr who narrates it from Ibn Abbas.

Question is who is Ibn Abbas? He is Abdullah bin Al-Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib bin Hashim bin Abd Mnanf bin Qusayyah bin Kilab bin Murrah. Her mother name is Umm Fadl Lubaba bint Al-Harith. Ibn Abbas born on 3rd BH aka 619 CE at Makkah and died in 68 AH aka 687 CE at Ta’aif, **after the death of our beloved Prophet :saw2: **. He mostly stayed at Makkah and Madina and his interest was in Tafsir, recitation of Quran and narration.
His teacher/narrations are from Prophet Muhammad :saw2:, al-'Abbas ibn 'Abd al-Muttalib, Umm Fadl Lubaba bint al-Harith, Fadl ibn al-'Abbas, Maymuna bint al-Harith, Abu Bakr As-Siddique, 'Uthman ibn 'Affaan, Ali ibn Abi Talib, 'Abdur Rahman Ibn 'Awf, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, Abu Dharr al-Ghaffari, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Tamim al-Dari, Khalid bin al-Walid, Usamah ibn Zayd, Hamal bin Malik bin al-Nabghah, al-Sa’b bin Juthama bin Qays, 'Ammar ibn Yasir, Abu Sa’id al-Khudri, Abu Talha Ansari, Abu Hurairah, Mu’awiya ibn Abu Sufyan, Abu Sufyan ibn Harb, ‘Aisha bint Abi Bakr, Asma’ bint Abi Bakr, Juwayriya bint al-Harith, Sawda bint Zam’a, Umm Hani bint Abi Talib, Umm Salamah, and Several Others r.a.

So in light of above, there is no doubt is left about the authentication of hadith narration regarding fasting on the day of Ashoora either on 9 and 10th or 10th and 11. Furthermore, it is not obligatory but as “Nafli” fasting. What is your problem if one fast on these day or not?

Last but not least, I’ll uploaded an image below which shows who was the teacher/students of Ibn Abbas r.a. for your reference.

Almighty Allah know best.

Brother: I have already mentioned that** if **content of hadith would show that Prophet (SAW) got deceived by Jews in considering 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Muharram same as 15[SUP]th[/SUP] Nisan when Jews really got liberated from Phroah … or content of any hadith that is untrue, illogical, absurd or irrational then instead of daring to abuse Prophet (SAW) by accepting such hadith as words of Prophet (SAW), I would reject the hadith considering that Prophet (SAW) could not have made such statement (untrue, illogical, irrational or absurd), regardless of narrators (without going into details that names of narrators are conned too or narrators have reported wrongly).

Note: 10th of Muharram after Prophet (SAW) migrated to Madina happened 10 months later and it was 10th of Iyar (according to Jews calender). So, if Prophet (SAW) found that Jews are keeping fast on 10 Iyar (even though, Jews do not fast on 10 Iyar for any reason … so they could not have been fasting anyhow … still assuming that they were) … Prophet (SAW) asked the reason for fasting. According to hadith, Jews told Prophet (SAW) that they got liberated from pharoah on this day … something when we check we find untrue, so Jews must have concocted story to misguide and deceive Prophet (SAW). Unfortunate thing is that if we believe the hadith to be true than it means, Prophet (SAW) fell into this trap of deception and even Allah did not corrected him (SAW). If what happened was true (which obviously was not), then Jews would have used this as proof that Prophet (SAW) was not Prophet of Allah (nauzobillah), as he got deceived by them into believing that they (Jews) got liberated from Phraoh under the guidance of Musa (AS) on 10 Muharram (a month that is not Jewish month anyhow, hence date could not be true). I think that it is impossible that what is mentioned in hadith is true and related to Prophet (SAW), rather I believe, Ummayads must have fabricated this hadith to put some water on Muslims’ mourning due to Kerbala event.

Anyhow, since you are insisting on reliability of hadith’s narrators as only condition of accepting hadith, regardless of what is there in content … even though for me this argument is irrelevant as content of hadith is full of flaws, then just for argument sake I would go into it.

So … you are saying that hadith must be true because it came from Abdullah bin Abbas (RA). If that is so, then can you please tell me the name of original narrator … that is, from whom Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) heard what is mentioned in Hadith (I mean, who is the originator of the hadith)?

I am asking that because Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) was 3 years old when Prophet (SAW) migrated to Madina … and not only that, but Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) was living with Abbas (RA) in Mecca at the time … as, at the time, Abbas (RA) himself was in Mecca and did not even converted to Islam officially. According to my knowledge, Abbas (RA) was with army of Kuffar in Badr, even though was unwilling to be part of that army. It seems Abbas (RA) became Muslim in 2 H, and even then, Kufar-e-Mecca had no certain knowledge, though had suspicions.

**Further, Abbas (RA) migrated to Madina in 8 H with his family, probably before fall of Mecca **[or was in Mecca 8 years after Prophet (SAW) migrated to Madina] .

So, if hadith is from ibn Abbas (RA), then he must have heard it from someone [as regardless of his age (3 years) … he was not even present in Madina when this event could have happened … I mean, if really happened and Prophet (SAW) was made fool by Jews into believing something wrong]… so, please find me the original narrator of this hadith from whom Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) heard. Show me a hadith that says that ibn Abbas (RA) heard this from Prophet (SAW) or any of those who could be present when Prophet (SAW) migrated to Madina and this event (fasting on 10 Muharram) happened. Thanks.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

Astaghfirullah wa atubu ilaih

Peace Sa1eem,

Are you trying to derail thread purposely, rather then ponder into it and admit that your knowledge on fasting on Ashoora is wrong?

[Sa1eem]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

@lethal_kamikaze

Astaghfirullah wa atubu ilaih

Peace Sa1eem,

Are you trying to derail thread purposely, rather then ponder into it and admit that your knowledge on fasting on Ashoora is wrong?

Brother … No, I am not trying to derail the thread, rather would like people to think before any act, especially acts that could have grave consequence for them on judgement day.

I think that those who consider fasting on 10th of Muharram based on hadith by Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) are wrong, are abusing Prophet (SAW) by claiming that Prophet (SAW) got deceived by Jews, and thus he (SAW) acted based on lies and also asked Muslims to act on that lies, and thus those who fast based on said hadith, would be answerable for what they do on judgment day (would have to justify their act and beliefs) … as their action based on this hadith is bohtan on Prophet (SAW) … something that I could never dare.

Anyhow, as mentioned in Quran, all would be responsible of their own acts and beliefs, and that no one would bare the burden of others. So, I can only think what I believe and follow, and can mention to those who care. Rest, individuals can do what they like, as consequence of not thinking and following something blindly is their own.

[psyah]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

There is further evidence that the day in actual fact was Yom Kippur which is the 10th of Tishrei and not the days that precede the 15th Nisan …

You can see evidence in the actual practice of this and other people have mentioned this too.

Yom Kippur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muhammad in Medina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It means that the hadith being mentioned has information in it that does not fit …

But as far as Sa1eem’s point goes his concerns are real … Yom Kippur and 10th of Nisan will change every second or third year … so the only year when either of these were coincided with the 10th of Muharram was the first year of Hijrah … which is when the event happened that RasoolAllah (SAW) ordered us to observe 2 days instead of the 1 done by the Jews.

Thereafter the Jewish festival either 10th Nisan or 10th Tishrei would not correlate with 10th Muharram … only 2 to 3 years in a row the calendars match and then they slip again coming back only after a number of years …

From another hadith narrated by Aisha (RA) Volume 3, Book 31, Number 117 in Sahih Bukhari … We are told that:

a) Qur’aysh fasted Ashura in the Jahili period - (that is before 610AD)
b) Then the Muslims were ordered to fast Ashura
c) Until the advent of Ramadan (which happened on the 2nd Hijri)

Hijrah was in 622 AD
Fatah Makkah was in 630 AD

From this is it clear that the mandatory observance of Ashura was only 1 year - the year that RasoolAllah (SAW) arrived …
Thereafter the mandatory fasts were in Ramadan.

The interesting thing here is that the Qur’aysh were fasting 10th Ashura since before Madinah anyway … and that would be out of sync with the Jewish calendar too … It just so happened that the Muharram month coincided with either the Nisan month or the Tishrei month in the year when the Hijrah happened …

The ages of the narrators are not important as we trust them in their report … As long as we can verify the report goes back to the Sahabah (RA) we do not need to go further than that.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

Peace Psyah,

I understand his point/concern which is valid but as far he said that the hadith is not authentic and its a kind of ‘buhtan’, I strongly disagree with him.

Brother Sa1eem,

The hadith is not only narrated by Ibn Abbas but also Fasting on Ashoora is narrated by Umul Momineen Hazrat Aisha r.a., wife of Prophet Muhammad .

Hazrat Umar ibn al-Khattab, the Khalifa r.a., who also sent a message to Al-Harith Ibn Hisham, that he should fast on the day of Ashoora and tell his family also to fast on this day also narrates fasting on Ashura.

Mu’aqiya bin Abu Sufyan while delivering a sermon in Madina i.e., when he come there for Hajj. He delivered a sermon on the day of Ashura and said to fast on Ashura day.

Hunaydah bin Khalid narrates from one of the wives of the Prophet PBUH that He PBUH used to fast the first nine days of Dhul-Hijjah, Ashura and three days of every month, that is, the first Monday of the month and Thursday

Moreover, Abu Musa, Abdullah bin Umar, Abd Al-Rahman, Abu Qatada Al-Ansari, and many more Companions r.a. narrated fasting of Ashura.

Furthermore, there is few hadith which narrates that Prophet Muhammad observed fast because Mosa a.s., observed fast on this day i.e., on Ashura.

So you still think it is buhatan???

P.S. you asked original names of the narrators which I already disclosed at “his teachers/narration are from”.

[Sa1eem]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

Brothers: I have to make it clear that I am not arguing with anyone for the sake of argument. I already mentioned that if anyone wants to fast on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram **based **on hadith that Jews got liberated from Pharaoh on this day under Musa (AS), as hadith mentions, than go ahead, no one stops anyone, as it would be individuals who are responsible of their own beliefs and deeds after death. [In my previous post, I highlighted ‘based’ regarding particular hadith at 3 places].

As far as I am concerned, I would be answerable of my actions and beliefs on judgment day. I believe that there is no such thing as fast on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram and hadith from Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) is fabricated hadith. I cannot consider something is from Prophet (SAW) that is flawed, regardless of who narrated it (or wrongly accused of narrating it), as I could not even imagine that Prophet (SAW) could have said anything that is flawed. I have my reasons, that I also mentioned here on this forum, that I would present on judgment day if I am questioned, so no need to argue.

Psyah: Regarding fasting on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram, you mentioned:

you wrote:

There is further evidence that the day in actual fact was Yom Kippur which is the 10th of Tishrei and not the days that precede the 15th Nisan …

So, as far as you are concerned, 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Muharram fast could be fast of yum-kippur (that falls on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Tishri) … and you gave wiki-pedia reference saying that Prophet (SAW) initially incorporated Jews worship of yum-kippur in Islam. And that 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Tishri may have coincided with 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram.

Your reference from wikipedia says:

Muhammad also adopted some features of the Jewish worship and customs such as fasting on the Yom Kippur day.

You further left possibility that it might be 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Nisan coinciding with 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram, and Prophet (SAW) saw Jews fasting, hence the fast.

I have already replied to your above claims in my earlier posts that I am putting down here too.

A: Fasting on yum-kippur (10 Tishri) or fasting on 10 Nisan (both are two different months and days)… none is linked with Jews under Musa (AS) getting liberated from Pharaoh, and we are talking about hadith that links the fast with Jews under Musa (AS) liberation from Pharaoh.

B: Prophet (SAW) reached Madina on 17[SUP]th[/SUP] Rabi-ul-Awal … and it was end of June 622 AD. [Remember … Rabi-ul-Awal … and June].

Muharram comes 10 months after Rabi-ul-Awal. First month of Muharram after Prophet (SAW) arrival to Madina was in April 223 AD.

Now look at the Jewish months you mentioned, when it generally falls and when it fell in 622 AD - 623 AD.

When Prophet (SAW) reached Madina, it was Jewish month Tammuz.

Tammuz … Starts in June-July. In 622 AD, month of Tammuz started on 15[SUP]th[/SUP] June … Prophet (SAW) reached Madina end of June 622 AD.

Tishri (10 Tishri is Yum-e-Kippur) … Starts in September-October. In 622 AD it started on 11 Sept (around 2 months after Prophet reached Madina … Muharram came 10 months later, not two months later). So, 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram fasting cannot be yum kippur fasting. If prophet (SAW) fasted on 10 Tishri (yum-e-Kippur) in his first year of hijra, then it would be fast on 10th Jamad-ul-Sani and not 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram. Yum-e-Kippur fast is 24 hours long, and not from just during daylight, so if Prophet (SAW) was fasting yum-e-Kippur fast, it would have been 24 hours long.

Nisan (15[SUP]th[/SUP] Nisan = Passover) … Starts in March-April. First month of Nisan after Prophet (SAW) migration to Madina started on 8 March 623 AD … and it coincided with Islamic month Zil-Haj … not Muharram. So, if Prophet (SAW) fasted on 10 Nisan, it would have been 10 Zil-Haj, but 10 Zil-haj is forbidden day in Islam to fast, so Prophet (SAW) could not have fasted on 10 Nisan.

First 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram Prophet (SAW) in Madina would have been 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Iyar … and I could not understand why Prophet (SAW) would have fasted on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Iyar linking the fast with Jewish festival, as Jews do not fast on this day.

[Note: Some Jews fast on 10 Nisan as day of mourning … remembering calamity due to death of Musa (AS) elder sister, followed by death of Harum (AS) few months later … but Muslims who fast on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Ramadhan claim that they want to fast as it is day of happiness… how funny if one thinks that Prophet (SAW) fasted on 10 Nisan due to Jews fasting as they lost Musa (AS) sister on this day, and it was same as 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Muharram]

Anyhow, it is impossible to claim that 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram fasting happened due to Yum-Kippur fasting … or because of Passover (15[SUP]th[/SUP] Nisan) fasting.

Rest I leave on you to decide. If you think you want to fast on basis of hadith by Abdullah bin Abbas (RA), carry on. But be assured, that all human beings are responsible of their own beliefs and deeds, and would have to answer everything they believed and done in this world, on judgement day.

Note: Islamic months go backward with respect to months in Georgian calendar, by around 11 days each year. Jewish months stand still with respect to months in Georgian calendar (moving within margin of 30 days). That means it is impossible that Ramadhan coincided with month Tashri during the lifetime of Prophet (SAW) or 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Ramadhan fast coinciding with yum-e-Kippur fast during the lifetime of Prophet (SAW).

[psyah]

Re: Fasting on the day of Aashoora (10th Muharram)

Brothers: I have to make it clear that I am not arguing with anyone for the sake of argument. I already mentioned that if anyone wants to fast on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram **based **on hadith that Jews got liberated from Pharaoh on this day under Musa (AS), as hadith mentions, than go ahead, no one stops anyone, as it would be individuals who are responsible of their own beliefs and deeds after death. [In my previous post, I highlighted ‘based’ regarding particular hadith at 3 places].

As far as I am concerned, I would be answerable of my actions and beliefs on judgment day. I believe that there is no such thing as fast on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram and hadith from Abdullah bin Abbas (RA) is fabricated hadith. I cannot consider something is from Prophet (SAW) that is flawed, regardless of who narrated it (or wrongly accused of narrating it), as I could not even imagine that Prophet (SAW) could have said anything that is flawed. I have my reasons, that I also mentioned here on this forum, that I would present on judgment day if I am questioned, so no need to argue.

Psyah: Regarding fasting on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram, you mentioned:

I have already replied to your above claims in my earlier posts that I am putting down here too.

A: Fasting on yum-kippur (10 Tishri) or fasting on 10 Nisan (both are two different months and days)… none is linked with Jews under Musa (AS) getting liberated from Pharaoh, and we are talking about hadith that links the fast with Jews under Musa (AS) liberation from Pharaoh.

B: Prophet (SAW) reached Madina on 17[SUP]th[/SUP] Rabi-ul-Awal … and it was end of June 622 AD. [Remember … Rabi-ul-Awal … and June].

Muharram comes 10 months after Rabi-ul-Awal. First month of Muharram after Prophet (SAW) arrival to Madina was in April 223 AD.

Now look at the Jewish months you mentioned, when it generally falls and when it fell in 622 AD - 623 AD.

When Prophet (SAW) reached Madina, it was Jewish month Tammuz.

Tammuz … Starts in June-July. In 622 AD, month of Tammuz started on 15[SUP]th[/SUP] June … Prophet (SAW) reached Madina end of June 622 AD.

Tishri (10 Tishri is Yum-e-Kippur) … Starts in September-October. In 622 AD it started on 11 Sept (around 2 months after Prophet reached Madina … Muharram came 10 months later, not two months later). So, 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram fasting cannot be yum kippur fasting. If prophet (SAW) fasted on 10 Tishri (yum-e-Kippur) in his first year of hijra, then it would be fast on 10th Jamad-ul-Sani and not 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram. Yum-e-Kippur fast is 24 hours long, and not from just during daylight, so if Prophet (SAW) was fasting yum-e-Kippur fast, it would have been 24 hours long.

Nisan (15[SUP]th[/SUP] Nisan = Passover) … Starts in March-April. First month of Nisan after Prophet (SAW) migration to Madina started on 8 March 623 AD … and it coincided with Islamic month Zil-Haj … not Muharram. So, if Prophet (SAW) fasted on 10 Nisan, it would have been 10 Zil-Haj, but 10 Zil-haj is forbidden day in Islam to fast, so Prophet (SAW) could not have fasted on 10 Nisan.

First 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram Prophet (SAW) in Madina would have been 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Iyar … and I could not understand why Prophet (SAW) would have fasted on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Iyar linking the fast with Jewish festival, as Jews do not fast on this day.

[Note: Some Jews fast on 10 Nisan as day of mourning … remembering calamity due to death of Musa (AS) elder sister, followed by death of Harum (AS) few months later … but Muslims who fast on 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Ramadhan claim that they want to fast as it is day of happiness… how funny if one thinks that Prophet (SAW) fasted on 10 Nisan due to Jews fasting as they lost Musa (AS) sister on this day, and it was same as 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Muharram]

Anyhow, it is impossible to claim that 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Muharram fasting happened due to Yum-Kippur fasting … or because of Passover (15[SUP]th[/SUP] Nisan) fasting.

Rest I leave on you to decide. If you think you want to fast on basis of hadith by Abdullah bin Abbas (RA), carry on. But be assured, that all human beings are responsible of their own beliefs and deeds, and would have to answer everything they believed and done in this world, on judgement day.

Note: Islamic months go backward with respect to months in Georgian calendar, by around 11 days each year. Jewish months stand still with respect to months in Georgian calendar (moving within margin of 30 days). That means it is impossible that Ramadhan coincided with month Tashri during the lifetime of Prophet (SAW) or 10[SUP]th[/SUP] Ramadhan fast coinciding with yum-e-Kippur fast during the lifetime of Prophet (SAW).

Peace bro Sa1eem

The Islamic months go back and the Jewish months go back too but then jump to the front every two to three years based in the 7 extra months in 19 years cycle to fix to seasons ... The net effect is that for 2 to 3 years any given Islamic month will share it's position with a Jewish month then switch until it goes through ALL of the Jewish months ... So in one year Muharram will fall in Tishrei and in another year Muharram will fall in Nisan ... And if you do not believe that I can show you the calculations, of course it go through all the other months too.

Secondly ... You want it to be about Jews being liberated on this day, but that is a side issue. It is a side issue because the evidence for it being for that reason is totally dependent on the information the Jews gave to the Sahabah (RA) ... Even if it is reliable ... They could themselves be mistaken or if they were correct the later Jews could have made adjustments ... They did not have a written tradition until later as well so it is a mute point.

The purpose of the Hadith is not rooted in the exact timing of the event ... It is based on the injunction of what we as Muslims do and why ... We have our own calendar and our own basis to do things ... It can be verified this statement of Ibn Abbas (RA) happened and hence we follow. Everything else is secondary.