Fasting on Ashura ..

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Sunni’s fast on the 9th and 10th or 10th and 11th of Muharram , due to a hadith that Muhammed SAW saw Jews fasting and asked them the reason for it, they stated that its a thanksgiving fast for helping Moosa AS against the fir’awn .. Prophet SAW said Moosa AS was a much more important person for us hence ordered the muslims to fast. However to keep the difference between the Jews and the muslims, he ordered us to fast two days in a row. Either the 9th and the 10th .. or the 10th and the 11th.

Right?

Now, several times I have heard various sects questioning the source of this hadith and saying that this could be a potential ploy of the jews to get muslims to start celebrating rather then mourning the Karbala Tragedy … Some muslims have even gone to the extent to calling it a biddah ..

I am keen to find out a bit more on this particular fasting we do and how strong a Hadith it is. If its not a strong Hadith then are there any doubts about it being an evil ploy by the evil forces? Please share your thoughts.

Many thanks ..

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Re: Fasting on Ashura ..

with the knowledge and status of Syedena Hussain Radiallahu anhu, i am sure he could not die...but as shaheed. this makes more sense when you look at the aim Allah SWT has set out for the ahlebayt, 'to purify them a thorough purification' and all of them will have a good end. the treacherous people of iraq wrote letters to him and then betrayed him, beyond those directly involved in his killing it isnt for us to speculate on who is guilty by involvement, but ALL those who are have done wrong

the Prophet of Allah, peace and blessing be upon him, his familly, his companions, and all those who followed him, said words to the effect 'My death will be the biggest calamity on this Ummah'

and for the followers of RasoolAllah SAW that should put into prospective whether continued mourning is allowed or not

following on from that RasoolAllah SAW forbade us ''He is not from our group who slaps his checks, tears his clothes and cries in the manner of the people of jahiliyyah''

as for ashura and fasting, then that is fully acknowledged sunnah. the shias, are not allowed to adopt same beliefs as us, so theyve gone to accepting half day fast! rather then two days. its different to us and its not same as jews!! every marja will give his own opinion however due to not having any set beliefs, for every piece of information they have others which are direct contradiction. shia annual mourning started a few hundred years after Hussain RA was martyred, but this type of mourning was there in their previous persian culture

recently a brother made a remark that it was sunnah to mourn HussainRA, but iirc what he was quoting was a dream of a sahabi not a prophetic hadith

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hmmm thanks Shardmanny .. I agree with all of the above that you have said.

Just to go into a bit more detail.. A shiaa brother said that this particular hadith doesnt have strong sources because most of the sahabi's who reported this hadith were underaged at the time of Prophet Muhammed SAW and wouldnt have clear memory of the incident .

This arose my interest, coz as a sunni, I know that this hadith has strong acknowledement through three chains and not just one. But the question that comes to mind is , did sahabi's start observing the Muharram fasting during the lifetime of Prophet Muhammed SAW ? do we have any recorded knowledge of this in our key books?

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[QUOTE]
Now, several times I have heard various sects questioning the source of this hadith and saying that this could be a potential ploy of the jews to get muslims to start celebrating rather then mourning the Karbala Tragedy ... Some muslims have even gone to the extent to calling it a biddah ..
[/QUOTE]

meh I don't get too bogged down on this stuff. Voluntary fasting isn't going to do us any harm. Nafli rozas during Muharram have been very important in our sunni family for as long as I can remember.

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True Huma.. normally i dont go into details of these things but got stumped the other day when my friends 12 year old asked her a religion based question that he was asked by his friend who was a different sect .. and he didnt know how to respond .. so asked mommy and mommy didnt have a reply so eventually he thought that his friend was right and that he should be listening to his friend :no:

So I thought, when questions do come up in mind, we should seek to get as much knowledge about them , you never know when that knowledge might come handy , hai na?

:hinna:

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Re: Fasting on Ashura ..

firstly im not a hadith expert but the reasons you have stated there are not sufficient to reject a hadith. especially when there are supporting hadiths. ask me what my father said to me when i was young, i'll tell you like i was still there. also some speeches do stick in the mind, especially if you have RasoolAllah infront of you, and you presented yourself for iman, and Allah SWT is watching and you have seen the world spinning around this Rasool SAW

afaik Ashura fasting was mandatory before ramzan became mandatory, and thats why its now sunnah. so yeah thats a heavy proof

RasoolAllah SAW actually kept alot of fasts, some of them you'll come across throughout the year because they done on specific occasions, some of them you wont because they were done because He SAW didnt have any food in the house : (

with the shia allegations, they try to scupper, and throw dust on Quran, Hadith and Islam generally. unfortunately lieing for this purpose has been made permissable for their religion. like i said above they have to disagree so if pushed into a corner they will adopt something like the islamic view (eg halfday fast!)

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I get it now Shardmanny, thanks so much … it gets shocking when they start throwing dirt at such important aspects of the religion … using words like Biddat on a Sunnah is a huge thing for a muslim, be them be a sunni or a shia .. but its important that before we claim something to be a biddat we clarify fully the autheticity of that specific sunnah :hinna:

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Re: Fasting on Ashura ..

We should fast on 9/10 or 10/11 of Muharram and at the same time we must remember & recall the great sacrifice of Imam Hussain Razi Allah Anho. We should pray that may Allah accept our fasting and let its reward be passed (eesaal-e-sawab) on to Shohada-e-Karbala and may we practically follow the spirit behind this great sacrifice by those blessed 72 people.

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Now my comment isn't meant to undermine anything posted above but for the purpose of the thread from another point of view I can surely tell you Shias don't fast for the half day just to differentiate themselves, that's far from the truth nor is it a new adaption to practice their own. Briefly to explain the view and from what I know and have learned, the reason Shias don't observe a full fast is because it is believed to have been written about the battle of Karbala that Yazids mother had promised to keep a fast if her son won the battle and killed Imam Hussein on the day of Ashura. The prophets grandchildren and great grandchildren were kept hungry and thirsty for days in the desserts of Karbala and many died and fought in that state. For that reason Shias keep a fast for a half day in commemoration of their sacrifice but not a full days fast because it is not considered a traditional roza like the ones kept in Ramadan and like the one Yazids mother kept. This is just a brief explanation, I'm sure someone with more knowledge would be able to clarify more if someone would like. Now I cant tell you and I am not sure what the traditions were for 12ers before the events of Karbala happened on that date but those events changed the practicing ways for those Muslims because they believe the prophets family sacrificed themselves to save the prophets original message of Islam.

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hello s and s, although i consider myself qualified to be an ayatollah, your reply is absolutely superb. thank you, i couldnt have shown you in more fairer light

[QUOTE]
the reason Shias don't observe a full fast is because it is believed to have been written about the battle of Karbala that Yazids mother had promised to keep a fast if her son won the battle and killed Imam Hussein on the day of Ashura
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
For that reason Shias keep a fast for a half day in commemoration of their sacrifice but not a full days fast because it is not considered a traditional roza like the ones kept in Ramadan and like the one Yazids mother kept
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
the prophets family sacrificed themselves to save the prophets original message of Islam.
[/QUOTE]

i can also add for you that you believe the wife of yazeed was the first to do matam, actually its my pleasure to announce your beliefs. previously i have wrote 'even they (you shias) dont know the basis why they do matam.' i think the muslim brothers who are not so interested in these subjects would have doubted my statement due it showing shias in such incoherent light

however i must let you that these reasonings (to re-asert your customs from previous cultures eg matam) are also the reason our scholars have wrote: "an ant from the valley of ants posseses more intellect then a rafidhi". now i do want to invite you to islam, for that to happen you must be able to see the wifflewaffle youare beig presented as proofs of 12er shia religion. for another example:

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but those events changed the practicing ways for those Muslims
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thank you, for writing this
i'll try to put some islamic context in for you, the Prophet SAW said (words to the effect):'My death will be the biggest calamity on this Ummah'

the statement should be agreeable to you. most 12ers say and all sunnis believe the Prophet SAW was the best, right? this means if matam was allowed it would be for the Prophet's SAW death but instead the Prophet SAW said ''He is not from our group who slaps his checks, tears his clothes and cries in the manner of the people of jahiliyyah''

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but those events changed the practicing ways for those Muslims
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no it did not, the reason shias come to reasoning such as 'Imam (yazeeds) mother' is because the muslims including the imams from the ahlebayt did not. you are basically looking at the re-introduction of previous customs with an islamic pretence, basically so some of the persians could carry on as they were before islam.

[QUOTE]

I am not sure what the traditions were for 12ers before the events of Karbala
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there was no 12ers till a long long time after karbala

the situation is:

"A Muslim would almost be in a state of total bewilderment and confusion at the audacity of these people towards Allah's Messenger sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam were it not for his knowledge that most of the Raafidites are Persians. Some Persians feigned Islaam and used Shi'ism as a cover for the destruction of Islaam. There were also among the Persians those who were unable to free themselves from the effects of their former religions and thus they entered Islaam with a pagan mentality which did not mind telling lies about the Prophet sallallaahualayhi wa sallam"

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:k:

Although I would say that a lot of pagan arabs also feigned islam and entered it in the last minute and later subverted the caliphate to kingship and killed/enslaved the best of the ummah.

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:k:

Although I could have written back to your “wiffle waffle” nonsense, I’m not here to offend anybody about ones beliefs nor am going to sit here trying to shed some light for someone who already considers himself a scholar (which I highly doubt). I have many sunni friends and even interfaith marriages in my family and I respect everyones personal opinions. I don’t consider it my place to challenge anyone on their beliefs nor am I highly qualified like you. Now THATs the difference between you and me. :slight_smile:

Thank you for the invitation to join with you in Islam, but I have been here all along. :slight_smile:

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and that would be a statement of falsehood on your part. the ummayads and the abbassid famillies were brought into faith at the pleasure of Allah, last minute or not just like other bani hashim.[But to all Allah has promised the best (reward). 57:10] after the rashidun period the next calipha was a respected sahabi, and a man promoted by earlier rashidun caliphs with approx. 48 years of successful holy war during his life. if you know of them being hypocrits then its more then the bani hashim of the time, who gave yazeed a daughter in law, marriages continued between these famillies. as for later kingships leave their matter to Allah, most of our imams at this period became more interested in fiqh anyway. the borders had stretched so far. history writers are awfully unreliable, please do not badmouth other muslims on their account. especially when the muslim interest in this period is reduced

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what is your obsession with banu ummayya and banu hashim ? both had great sahaba in their ranks and both had hypocrites as well.Islam was not meant to be dominated by one tribe.Your twisted logic and blind following of certain personalities is more akin to the 12ers than you would like to admit.Your thinking is no better than the iranian nationalists in the guise of 12ers who hate arab muslims because they destroyed their beloved sassanian empire.
If you care to know, iranians were a bastion of sunni islam until safavis converted them forcibly to 12er shiaism and abu muslim khorasani one of the staunchest enemies of banu ummayyah also dealt a death blow to any Alid opposition to Abbassid rule.So your perverted logic of rafidi = persian and arab = pious muslim is not only incredibly ignorant but downright racist.
"awfull unreliable" ? its by these "awfully unreliable" historical records that you have details of seerah and Maghazi, tafsir and hadith writings did not develop in a vacumn either.Its by the works of these great men that you have such a coherent and rich literary heritage in islam

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i have absolutely no obsession with banu ummayya or banu hashim, however you have no basis for the accusations you were making in post 11, where the insult could only be directed at two famillies. go ask anyone, reputable, if you can say stuff like this:

[QUOTE]
Although I would say that a lot of pagan arabs also feigned islam and entered it in the last minute and later subverted the caliphate to kingship and killed/enslaved the best of the ummah
[/QUOTE]

take a cold bath

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^ bro look at the fitna egos of banu ummayah and hashim caused, it eroded the hard work of prophet/ abubakr/umar...it was no yamani jew jis nay sahaba/tabaeen ko mantar phara kar goonga bhaira kar diya tha ....

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brother the rashidun caliphate was extra extra special but the kingship wasnt to be hated. fitnah was promised to the ummah by Allah SWT and it doesnt effect just those who do wrong (from Quran). our islamic responsibility towards brothers who erred or those we think erred is leave the matter with Allah SWT. if we see two believing groups fighting make ye peace between them (from Quran)

please watch the moulana tarik jameel vid i posted, enjoy sufi thought :)

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Re: Fasting on Ashura ..

Peace All,

I won’t go in full details but i’ll quote some main points. You may well research on that and correct me if i’m wrong. :jazak:

The hadith regarding fasting on the day of ‘Ashura’ were narrated from Umar, Ar Rubi bin Muawdah, Salim’s father, Humaid bin Abdur Rahman, Aisha, Abdulla b. Umar, Qais b. Sakan, Ibn Masudd, Alqama narrated from Ashath b. Qais, Jabir B Samura, Muawiya b. Abu Sufyan, Abd Al-Rahman, Ibn Bishr, Abu Musa, Hakam b. Araj, Ibn Abbas, Salama b. Al-akwa, Rubayyi b. Muawwidah b. Afra, Khalid b. Dhakwan, Abu Qatada and many many more. Foremost Prophet Muhammad :saw2: observed fast on this day i.e., on Ashura by Himself :saw2: let alone all narration if anyone doubtful from the narrations or narrators. He :saw2: did and one who observe fast on this day will be rewarded by Almighty Allah and in case if don’t than there is no sin or harm on him/her. Prophet :saw2: also said one who wish to fast he/she may fast and if don’t then donot fast. Basically its optional and its matter only to gain more rewards.

Some said in past Jews were observe fast on Ashura day as ‘this is a good day’ for them. Due to that tradition or in comparison, Muslim also observing the fast on this day. According to some scholars the jews were saved from pharaoh and ‘Hazrat Moosa a.s., fasted on this day as ‘in gratitude to Allah’, so that is why Muslims fast on this day’. In other words we can say we fast it our of respect for it’. If Prophet :saw2: told the peoples to fast b’coz we are more closer to Moosa a.s. than my understanding it that this is b’coz we all creed are from one and same God.

Another reason of observing the fast on the day of Ashura is for expiation of minor sins. Also it is written that on this day i.e. Ashura, Kaaba was covered.
Lastly, in the Holy book of Qur’an, Almighty Allah said that there are four months which are more sacred. Prophet Muhammad :saw2: observed fast in these months for more reward as well as for expiation of forgivness of sins. So anyone can observe fast as supererogatory seeking more rewards and/or for forgivness of sins in these month.

I don’t see there is any issue either we fast on this day i.e., day of Ashura or not. It is matter for seeking more rewards and come a step closer to Almighty Allah.

Almighty Allah knows best.

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wow big claims over here dude! there is no such thing as half day fast, shias dont fast, they just dont eat anything until after asar namaz.

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i dont think you have been reading attentively enough

i said:

[QUOTE]
every marja will give his own opinion however due to not having any set beliefs,

[/QUOTE]

lets see opinions already expressed
opinion A

[QUOTE]
Briefly to explain the view and from what I know and have learned, the reason Shias don't observe a full fast is because it is believed to have been written about the battle of Karbala that Yazids mother had promised to keep a fast
[/QUOTE]

opinion B

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sects questioning the source of this hadith and saying that this could be a potential ploy of the jews to get muslims to start celebrating rather then mourning the Karbala Tragedy
[/QUOTE]

opinion C

[QUOTE]
there is no such thing as half day fast, shias dont fast,
[/QUOTE]

opinion D

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they just dont eat anything
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youve got your feet in 2 out the 3 squares