Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
^i didn't say not to learn lessons from what happened in the past........not at all.....
but what i am saying is, the present dynamics of relation of today's Pakistan and Bangladesh......
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Got this from another forum:
9 Months war:
Army Men = 90,000
200,000 rapes = 1111.1 rapes everyday
3 million killed = 33,333.3333 persons killed per day
India on all three sides of Bangladesh meaning the 90,000 army (of only I think 54k were fighting troops) were spread very thin taking on India at the borders.
Taking into the above info the figures are:
a) Fabricated, a majority of the army was fighting India out of those 90,000. Which means the remaining soldiers, even without India involved, could not possibly commit the crimes in the given time scale
b) Around 200,000
While saying that 200,000 is an obscene, OBSCENE, amount of innocent people killed and yes we should apologise for that.
However, how many innocent West Pakistanis did Mukthi Bhani kill?
A huge number. Lets hear an apology from Bangladesh too.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Thank u for bringing these points up Shak09. I remember there was an article in reference to Dhaka massacre where an Indian based writer had claimed as per her research that many facts and figures of Dhaka massacre are fabricated and false accusation. I have been trying to locate the article thru google and other search engines but have not been able to find it. Does anyone know about that article?
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn’t it time for real reconciliation ?
This link gives us a preview of her book:
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Thank u for posting.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn’t it time for real reconciliation ?
The fact was that Yahya Khan believed in might is right. Not accepting the fact that majority winning party and handing over power to them, he started military action. Rest events followed as a result of this. Pakistan is very much owed an appology to Bengladesh for genocide and rape of Bengalis whether it were millions or hundred of thousands, it does not matter. The blunder committed by the then dictator was unforgiveable. He said in one of the interviews that “he knew East Pakistan better than East Pakistani knew themselves” The arrogance and stupidity can very well be judged by the ex-ruler who ruled Pakistan till its breakup.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Amazing how most Pakistanis used to call Bengalis 4 foot fishermen who can't do sh-t. These 4 foot Bengalis brought the whole Pakistani Army to its knees and kicked them out of their land. Now look at it today, Bangladesh is economically and socially progressing. While Pakistan is economically destroyed and in the clutches of religious bigots. Its interesting to note Bangladesh's currency is stronger then Pakistan's rupee and their life expectancy is much higher then Pakistan's. Not to mention in the HDI, Pakistan is only one place higher then Bangladesh.
If Bangladesh puts in a little bit more effort they can definitely be an example of Jinnah's vision, a secular and economically progressive country. Good to know some part of former Pakistan still follows Jinnah's vision.
But it's sad to know Pakistan's government and army did not stop their obsession of butchering specific ethnic groups. They continued their butchering of a few particular ethnic groups.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Thank u for posting.
Also check post # 10 of a BanglaDeshi journalist's analysis.
I think truth should be known - no less and no more.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Without getting into the political aspects, cant fail to notice some comments along the lines of "we will apologize if they do". If each of us (self included) realizes this goes against the spirit of a true apology....
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Oh and one more thing, will Bengalis or Pakistanis ever apologize to those Biharis and Urdu Speakers now known as Stranded Pakistanis who sacrificed their lives to save Pakistan and remained loyal, still to this date they have remained loyal. Many Biharis were killed,raped and a lot of atrocities were done to them by the Mukhti Bahni. Will an apology be issued to them? Pakistan can accept more then a million refs from Afghanistan but it's a crime to accept a few thousand Stranded Pakistanis.
I guess being loyal is a crime in Pakistan.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Got this from another forum:
9 Months war:
Army Men = 90,000 200,000 rapes = 1111.1 rapes everyday 3 million killed = 33,333.3333 persons killed per day India on all three sides of Bangladesh meaning the 90,000 army (of only I think 54k were fighting troops) were spread very thin taking on India at the borders.
Taking into the above info the figures are:
a) Fabricated, a majority of the army was fighting India out of those 90,000. Which means the remaining soldiers, even without India involved, could not possibly commit the crimes in the given time scale b) Around 200,000
While saying that 200,000 is an obscene, OBSCENE, amount of innocent people killed and yes we should apologise for that.
However, how many innocent West Pakistanis did Mukthi Bhani kill?
A huge number. Lets hear an apology from Bangladesh too.
FIRST FACT: 90,000 wasn't the strength of the army, but of all people (civvies included) that surrendered to india in 1971. I know because my mom's mamoo was an engineer there and he was no uniformed military person.
The army strength was from 40 - 45k that were fighting a hostile population and most importantly, rebel ex-pakistani army soldiers of EBR and paramilitary EPR as well as indian spec ops with a limited supply line. Germany got bombed later on in the war, but no way in hell did it ever face these type of circumstances in the holocaust.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Without getting into the political aspects, cant fail to notice some comments along the lines of "we will apologize if they do". If each of us (self included) realizes this goes against the spirit of a true apology....
Pakistan has already expressed condolences on the matter if you want to read up on musharraf's last official visit of BD. Bangladesh has yet to accept any wrongdoings of mukti bahini's butchering of pakistani army (mutiny in rebel bengal units) and murder and rape of civilians in the war.
[quote]
These 4 foot Bengalis brought the whole Pakistani Army to its knees and kicked them out of their land.
[/quote]
Not that I agree with the biased ones, but the factors were stacked against the Pakistani army. Even mcarthur "surrendered" in phillippines, when we know what america could do as it did later by defeating japan. It still shows the stupidity of the officer corp of pakistan military who took on a task that they couldn't finish. I know bhutto helped for his own purposes i.e. to get into power but the army should have been none the wiser.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn’t it time for real reconciliation ?
A pro Pakistan page Quetta
is asking .
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Pakistan has already expressed condolences on the matter if you want to read up on musharraf's last official visit of BD. Bangladesh has yet to accept any wrongdoings of mukti bahini's butchering of pakistani army (mutiny in rebel bengal units) and murder and rape of civilians in the war.
Point taken. I have not followed this closely - hence dont know the details. With the situation as you have presented, I can understand the sentiments expressed by some.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
Oh and one more thing, will Bengalis or Pakistanis ever apologize to those Biharis and Urdu Speakers now known as Stranded Pakistanis who sacrificed their lives to save Pakistan and remained loyal, still to this date they have remained loyal. Many Biharis were killed,raped and a lot of atrocities were done to them by the Mukhti Bahni. Will an apology be issued to them? Pakistan can accept more then a million refs from Afghanistan but it's a crime to accept a few thousand Stranded Pakistanis. I guess being loyal is a crime in Pakistan.
Time has proven these people wrong in placing their loyalties with people from faraway lands and a utopian theory. They should have first stayed loyal to the place and people where they were and once migrated should have bonded with the local Bengalis. Even today, rhey should learn their lesson and campaign to be accepted as Banladeshis.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn’t it time for real reconciliation ?
Real right wing propaganda and nonsense these posters are, that don’t stand scrutiny of facts. Find a way to blame US for Pakistan’s own mistakes. The US presidential archives from the time are available online now. Read it and you will find that the US president at the time Nixon was buddy buddy with Yaha and did every thing he could to support Pakistan despite opposition from Us congress because of bloodshed unleashed by Pakistan army and public sentiment against Pakistan because of that. Nixon even arranged for Jordan to provide fighter planes (given by US) to Pakistan and had Israel promise Jordan in turn that it will not attack Jordan in the absence of these planes. He had to go through these hoops because US Congress had placed the embargo on supplies to Pakistan because of killing of civilians. He did send the fifth fleet to Bay of Bengal also to pressure India but it was too late and also he couldn’t risk an out and out confrontation with USSR and start the third world war to support a regime that was killing the locals indiscriminately.
Western intent against muslim ideological state is balanced by Nuclear capability now? In 1971 Western powers (US) were allies of Pakistan. It was Russia and India that were against Pakistan. The biggest destabilizer then and now is the violence unleashed by a mindset that considered Bengalis to be lesser muslims and a lower race compared to West Pakistanis.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
To be fair, E. Pakistan or Bangladesh was of small strategic value compared to West Pakistan, where the U-2 flew from and through where China was contacted. If US had a will, it would have intervened like it did in behalf of Israel few years later. For one, US could have provided ships to resupply and move pakistani troops from west to east pakistan (logistics problem) and USSR could not have attacked US just because of that. In fact, US was bound by SEATO and CENTO (expired?) to help Pakistan against a Soviet allied India: US used the same line to get Thais and Koreans to send troops to Vietnam, though UK and western europe didn't buy communist argument and told the US to take a hike.
As far as Nixon, I have heard that he had an exchange of hot words with Indhira when she wanted to go after W. Pakistan by telling her that US would consider putting their might behind Pakistan if that happened. We have to remember that part of the demoralization in W. Pakistan was because of the US embargo on the military, so how much morale do you think would have gone up if US did an israel type supply operation?
The embargo was placed by US congress which controls the money. One can say the biggest blow to war effort was losing the PR and propaganda war. Stories of large number of people killed and rapes by Pakistan army meant Pakistan all sympathies of the world. The refugee camps of Bengalees in India provided ample food for the propaganda against Pakistan.
CEATO and CENTO were oriented as a defense measure against Russia and were of no use against India. A lot of defense equipment and capability Pakistan got came with a promise to be used only against Russia.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
I remember US was fully behind Pakistan, and thier 6th (or 7th) fleet was deployed, thus putting an end to the war. (At least this is my recollection as a kid from 40 yrs ago).
The refugee situation in India was very real- the govt raised prices of stamps etc to help pay for the refugees.
I remember in Bombay, the sky was filled once with lights - rumors were spread it was Pakistani planes. We could see those lights so close. Our neighbours and their relatives were all huddled in the narrow passage between our living room, kitchen and bedroom, the aunties praying loudly. We kids were petrified that this could be the end.
Hope is, those times never ever get visited upon the sub-continent.
Re: Fall of Dhaka - 40th anniversary. Isn't it time for real reconciliation ?
The embargo was placed by US congress which controls the money. One can say the biggest blow to war effort was losing the PR and propaganda war. Stories of large number of people killed and rapes by Pakistan army meant Pakistan all sympathies of the world. The refugee camps of Bengalees in India provided ample food for the propaganda against Pakistan. CEATO and CENTO were oriented as a defense measure against Russia and were of no use against India. A lot of defense equipment and capability Pakistan got came with a promise to be used only against Russia.
But Russia or USSR was in a treaty with India (no more non-aligned game for india unlike 65), so US was bound by treaty to help Pakistan. I guess you don't read, but do read up on how US used the same argument to try and get support for Vietnam, saying that North Vietnam was supported by USSR and China and the alliance had a duty to protect the world from communism.
Southie, you remember lights or bombings as well? It could be Pakistani planes as Bombay is close to the pakistani border, though PAF was grounded later in the war due to the great ally we had. As for the US fleet, India would have never deployed their full navy with their only CV if a threat was detected. Indian CV was never deployed to West Pakistan where there was a sub threat.