Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

I guess I may have to tell you which chapter and which verse I was quoting :) since you do not seem to know :D

008.030YUSUFALI: Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah. PICKTHAL: And when those who disbelieve plot against thee (O Muhammad) to wound thee fatally, or to kill thee or to drive thee forth; they plot, but Allah (also) plotteth; and Allah is the best of plotters. SHAKIR: And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners

[hareem01]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

Khair-ul Maakireen does not mean "the best of planners", it means "above all planners/plotted" .

Khair-ul Makireen is a 'Mudhaf ileh'.....'ul' means 'of the'... Shabbir Ahmed's translation is saying 'above all '...how can that be right?

You're breaking the Arabic grammar.....

[hareem01]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

I guess I may have to tell you which chapter and which verse I was quoting :) since you do not seem to know :D

ok go ahead...please.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

Khair-ul Makireen is a 'Mudhaf ileh'.....'ul' means 'of the'... Shabbir Ahmed's translation is saying 'above all '...how can that be right?

You're breaking the Arabic grammar.....

The problem is, I have not used Shabbir Ahmad's translation :D

[hareem01]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

The problem is, I have not used Shabbir Ahmad's translation :D

Ok hypnotix2000 is even less of an authority.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

Khair-ul Makireen is a 'Mudhaf ileh'.....'ul' means 'of the'... Shabbir Ahmed's translation is saying 'above all '...how can that be right?

You're breaking the Arabic grammar.....

It is simple Hareem01, since M-K-R can also be used for negativity, the word Kh-Y-R is used to complement it.

Kh-Ya-Ra = Be possessed of good, to do good, give one a choice or option (and also be given a choice or option), prefer one thing or person over another thing or person, preferred/pronounced/chosen, strive to surpass one in goodness, excellent in beauty and disposition, to be ideal (show actual or potential usefulness or benefit), be desired in all circumstances and by every person, exalted in rank or quality or reputation, to be better than another person or thing, be the best of things or people, to be generous (possess and show generosity), possess nobility or eminence, be elevated in state or condition.

Simply saying "best of" is not enough since it does not convey the meaning and even gives people a chance to laugh at muslims saying, "your God Himself claims to be the best of plotters"... if yo are comfortable wth that, that's your problem.

How I have translated it is not a syntactical translation, it is symantic. It is actually saying "better than" or "above all" or "beyond"

[ahmadjee]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

oh great!

Anyway, here is summary the Ahmadiyya interpretation in of the verse with Khatam-un-Nabiyeen

[hareem01]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

It is simple Hareem01, since M-K-R can also be used for negativity, the word Kh-Y-R is used to complement it.

Kh-Ya-Ra = Be possessed of good, to do good, give one a choice or option (and also be given a choice or option), prefer one thing or person over another thing or person, preferred/pronounced/chosen, strive to surpass one in goodness, excellent in beauty and disposition, to be ideal (show actual or potential usefulness or benefit), be desired in all circumstances and by every person, exalted in rank or quality or reputation, to be better than another person or thing, be the best of things or people, to be generous (possess and show generosity), possess nobility or eminence, be elevated in state or condition.

Simply saying "best of" is not enough since it does not convey the meaning and even gives people a chance to laugh at muslims saying, "your God Himself claims to be the best of plotters"... if yo are comfortable wth that, that's your problem.

How I have translated it is not a syntactical translation, it is symantic. It is actually saying "better than" or "above all" or "beyond"

Lexicons are only good for providing these arrays of meanings of terms to contextualise the fuller meaning of the languages that those words fit into. However, your undestanding of Arabic seems to end at the Lexical level. There are also grammatical rules that you have side-stepped in order to purport your meaning. You are picking and choosing which combination best suits you also.

According to your own lexicon 'alternatives' one of the meanings of Kh-Ya-Ra is 'exalted quality'.

Also a rule of the Arabic language is Sifa Mausoof ... which is subject and predicate. In this case the subject is 'The Planners' and the predicate is term 'Khayr'. In English this MUST be rendered with the words 'of' denoted in Arabic by the dhumma or 'pesh' above the last letter in the predicate.

This makes the intermediate construct:
Khayru Al-Maakireen

Because of the 'u' and the 'al' these are combined to form 'ul' meaning 'of the'.

Which by meaning renders the Arabic KhayrulMakireen as
'exalted quality of the Planners' or simply by meaning 'Best of the Planners'.

Now it's good you use lexicons, but it is high time to start using Arabic grammar books also, don't you think?

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

The very word exalted gives the sense of being elevated or above/beyond (not physically but metaphorically)... so if you use grammer and predicate logic, the meaning "best of" is still partial, in fact misleading. You have to look at both syntactics and symantics to get the meaning.

Lexicons are only good for providing these arrays of meanings of terms to contextualise the fuller meaning of the languages that those words fit into. However, your undestanding of Arabic seems to end at the Lexical level. There are also grammatical rules that you have side-stepped in order to purport your meaning. You are picking and choosing which combination best suits you also.

According to your own lexicon 'alternatives' one of the meanings of Kh-Ya-Ra is 'exalted quality'.

Also a rule of the Arabic language is Sifa Mausoof ... which is subject and predicate. In this case the subject is 'The Planners' and the predicate is term 'Khayr'. In English this MUST be rendered with the words 'of' denoted in Arabic by the dhumma or 'pesh' above the last letter in the predicate.

This makes the intermediate construct: Khayru Al-Maakireen

Because of the 'u' and the 'al' these are combined to form 'ul' meaning 'of the'.

Which by meaning renders the Arabic KhayrulMakireen as 'exalted quality of the Planners' or simply by meaning 'Best of the Planners'.

Now it's good you use lexicons, but it is high time to start using Arabic grammar books also, don't you think?

[hareem01]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

The very word exalted gives the sense of being elevated or above/beyond (not physically but metaphorically)... so if you use grammer and predicate logic, the meaning "best of" is still partial, in fact misleading. You have to look at both syntactics and symantics to get the meaning.

ok...'above' in the literal arabic is Ala which means above and beyond (outside).
However, Khayr generally means good, no one can argue with that.
So the meaning of above in this case is better.

If you even use the word 'above', you'll get the english rendition 'Above of the planners' - meaning 'Of the subject group called 'Planners' Allah is 'Above' the rest of them.

You cannot isolate the Khayr from the Makireen and make it seem that Allah is not of them!

[hareem01]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

For further clarification Allah says He Himself planned and then He concludes to say Khayr ul makereen in this verse below:

Al Quran
3:54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.(Yusuf Ali)

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

You cannot isolate the Khayr from the Makireen and make it seem that Allah is not of them!

Well if that's how you consider your God then that's how you consider your God :)

[hareem01]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

Well if that's how you consider your God then that's how you consider your God :)

As a Muslim you should know there is no concept of my God or your God. We are all the property of The God. I would like to come back to the verses which we talked about earlier, when there is a matter of dispute we should go to the 'people of knowledge' according to you that is the 'Central Authority' okay ... so who is this authority?

I have only supported existing translations of the KhayrulMaakireen the onus of proof is on your shoulders to provide your supporter of your version. If you cannot then it is a duty on me to invite you to reject your understanding and accept the one of consensus, if you do not choose to then we can leave the debate here.

[hypnotix-2000]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

@hareem01

I have only supported existing translations of the KhayrulMaakireen the onus of proof is on your shoulders to provide your supporter of your version.

I already have, many times...

@hareem01

If you cannot then it is a duty on me to invite you to reject your understanding and accept the one of consensus, if you do not choose to then we can leave the debate here.

Consensus? Sorry but I am not going to follow consensus blindly... I've spent enough time (is 2 decades long enough for you?) studying and analyzing the product of this 'self appointed' consensus, and DISAGREE with it.

The beni Israa-el had a 'consensus' to worship the golden calf till Moses came back from Mount Sinai (whether this is literal description or an allegory as given in the Quran).

[DanishJu]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

Salamun Alaikum

I have a question in my mind since long and I want to ask it from ahmadi people that "what Masiah or Maseeh is meant for? Is it a personal name or nickname (Laqab), or Title (Kuniyat) or patryonomic (family or nasab) of Hazrat Eisa A.S. In what sense it is used for Hazrat Eisa A.S. Kindly suport your answer with Quranic verses.

Iltemase Dua.

[Destino]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

Messiah is a title. Not Kuniyyat as in Arabic custom, but a honorific title as in the word King, Prince etc. This word comes from a Hebrew term “Meshiach” meaning the annointed one. And Quran uses the same term for the advent of Jesus as he was the annointed one, promised to Jews.

As for the problem of Khatam, see below.

[DanishJu]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

[quote="Destino"]

Messiah is a title. Not Kuniyyat as in Arabic custom, but a honorific title as in the word King, Prince etc. This word comes from a Hebrew term "Meshiach" meaning the annointed one. And Quran uses the same term for the advent of Jesus as he was the annointed one, promised to Jews.

But Quraan says in Sura Aale Imran ayat 45 that
[FONT=&quot]إِذْ قَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍ مِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ {45}
**** w hen the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

In this ayat Allah SWT is telling Hazrat Maryam S.A that his name will be 'Massiah Isa' who is son of maryam.

one more thing very strange in this ayat is that Allah SWT informed Hazrat Maryam S.A that his name will be "Massiah Isa' and he will be son of Maryam. So why is it needed to tell a prospecting mother that the son she is going to deliver shall be her son. Doesnt she know well that her son shal be Ibne Maryam?

[Destino]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

So what shall we do about the Jewsih Messiah?

[bao_bihari]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

We are going a bit off topic-

My thinking is even if word khatim means what mirzais proclaim, even if there is no essah to come even then mirzais have LONG way to go to prove mirza jee as some one even equavilent to a normal person.

Bazari Abuses mirza Jee gave , ( to common muslims and others)

Contradictions in his writings(there are plenty of them) and many other facts are enough to prove any one studying mirzaiyat with open mind to through this belive in trash bin.

So lets not waste our time on some thing which is as clear as day light-

Lakum deena kum wali ya deen

[Lajawab]

Re: Fall of Ahmadiyya Community

In urdu language we often use the word "Makkaar". which means one who is dishonest.

But in Arabic language this word use in some other meaning. "wallaho khairul maakireen". here we do not take this word as dishonesty.

then there is a word "khatam" in urdu language, which mean end/finish and nothing else.

But when we use this word in arabic language, it has more than one meaning. for example. Ending, Seal, Ring, etc. now if you concentrate on these meanings, you will know that they are different from one another.

Ring is not use for ending. Seal is not only use for ending. it also use for authenticity. Ending only means finishing. Now, see what Prophet Muhammad sallallaho alehewassalam has called the coming Messiah!

Are you kidding me? Who is talking about Urdu here? We are talking about any language, specifically English...

And English translations exist since before Mirza Sahib declared his prophethood for the word 'khatam' to mean as end...

So how can a man, whose native tongue isn't even Arabic, declare the beliefs of 1400 years as being wrong?

Does it even make sense to follow such a person?