Tell me why Musharraf banned SSP but not other religious parties? So according to you, talking about violence and conducting violence are the same thing?
Congratulations - You have just turned modern jurisprudence on its head.
Ali-R...do you understand what you write? or do you just bang your fingers on the keyboard?
[QUOTE]
There is a differnece between rioting, mob violence and militia groups
[/QUOTE]
Talwar!
Do u have any 'Haya' left in you.
What RSS and Hindu extremists did was a planned mass massacre of Muslims,planned rape of women,planned attacks on missionaries.This is not in any way less than the bomb blasts but u have the concious to shut your eyes to all this.
I dont think RSS or BJP can be compared to any religious party in Pakistan. They do not want to impose religious law in the country, they infact want all religious based laws to be removed and equal laws for all citizens. They do tap in the vote of the majority after the Congress party tilted towards the minorities in the 80's. Regarding how bad RSS or BJP are, when has retaliating when attacked and self-defence become bad. The bitter truth is certain cultures are aggresive in nature whereas certain are not. Comparing for comparision stake is fine, but is false. One is for self-preservation while one is for aggresive expansion.
Anyway, discussion about conspiracy theories can be discussed in a new thread without turning this thread about this tragedy into a farce.
This should be interesting for u Surya:
"Politicians in the state of Gujarat prevented Indian police from carrying out their duties during religious riots in 2002, a senior policeman has said.
RB Sreekumar said that members of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) in Gujarat made the police feel handicapped during Hindu-Muslim clashes.
He made his comments to a two-member panel investigating the riots. "
By Jyotsna Singh
BBC correspondent in Delhi
Muslim women were subjected to “unimaginable inhuman
and barbaric” sexual violence during recent communal
riots in the west Indian state of Gujarat, according
to a woman’s panel that has visited the state.
Many women suffered the worst forms of sexual
violence, including gang-rape, says their report, “How
has the Gujarat massacre affected minority women. The
survivors speak”, released on Tuesday
And before u put it all on hindu train burning,let me remind u that the inquiry into the train burning concluded that the fire started “inside” the train.
Why did Bush ban all terrorists groups but not hindu, jewish or christian religious extremists groups?
We are talkin about violence are we bad ppl?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Ali-R...do you understand what you write? or do you just bang your fingers on the keyboard?
[/QUOTE]
Dear(est),
it's habit, but then why do you copy me?!?
Answer to what is being asked and stick to that what is been said before posting more crap.
Because only some type of groups go all over the world killing people.
Jewish groups don’t go to Turkey to blast innocents do they?
Laakhon salaams to the courage of the Daily Times Editorial staff, for coming up with this wonderful editorial.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_6-10-2004_pg3_1
EDITORIAL: Who did it in Sialkot?
In the face of terrorism, it is very important for Pakistan to focus on facts and not to forget the pattern recent incidents form. Above all, not to be in denial. Unfortunately, after each tragic killing, the state behaves erroneously in encouraging the people to think that terrorism is being directed from the outside — by India or the United States. The latest finding in the case of Sialkot suicide bombing which killed 30 nimazis on Friday last is bound to add to this misdirection of opinion.
According to the investigating agencies, clues have been uncovered about the Zainabia Mosque bombers and they lead to a ‘banned militant organisation’ that had earlier ‘struck in Quetta and Karachi’. The bombs used in the mosque explosion were locally made, but the attackers had used Indian-made explosive material: 2.5 kg explosive powder and one kg steel nails. The second bomb, found outside the mosque, consisted of two devices. It weighed 7 kg but luckily was defused. This second device, too, was found to have Indian components. But Indian explosive powder, it was said, was available at chemical shops in Pakistan. The bomber had used double the usual quantity of explosive powder, which increased the force of the bomb.
After the incident, the Shia community took out countrywide processions to protest. The Shia ‘official’ opinion during the protest accused President Musharraf of ‘offering a gift of our blood’ every time he visited the United States, implying that the deaths were the outcome of his collaboration with the Americans. Sialkot opposition MNA, Khwaja Asif of the PMLN, said on a private TV channel just after the blast that ‘no Muslim could have committed the crime’. He then quickly shifted gears to blame the government, fuelling further the destructive fury of the grief-stricken crowds in the city.
The quick and easy thing to do is to blame it on India. Because the explosive device used Indian explosive material, this is a plausible explanation. This however would not be the right thing to do. It will definitely not help in getting at the root of the trouble we are faced with in Pakistan. In the strip along the Indian border our farmers use even Indian seed for their wheat crops. So the argument about the explosive material will not really hold. In 2003, we did that in the case of the killings of the Hazaras in Quetta. The prime minister of the country went on record as saying that he suspected an Indian hand because the Karzai government had allowed India to open its consulates in areas adjacent to Pakistan.
Then in 2004 the ashura massacre of Quetta was timed with a similar massacre in Iraq. The loss of life among the Shia community there was many times the number lost in Quetta. Grand Ayatollah Sistani of Iraq decided that the massacre should be pinned on the Americans. Quickly the same was done in Pakistan. An Urdu columnist wrote in March 2004 that he was greatly uplifted (taza dam kar diya) when he heard the Iraqi Shia saying that 200 of them killed in Iraq on ashura was not the work of Muslims (read Sunnis) because ‘no Muslim could do such a thing’. The Shia in Iraq instead said that the evil deed had been done by someone else (kissi aur ka hath). The columnist then said that the Shia of Pakistan should develop the same kind of thinking (issi soch ki zarurat hai) about the ashura massacre of Quetta which had killed nearly 50 Shias.
Yet another famous columnist had written that the ashura massacre in Quetta was just like the massacre in Baghdad and Karbala and the Muslims were convinced that it was not done by [other] Muslims. At a time when America had unleashed its aggression on the Muslims, no Muslim group could think of killing another Muslim. In the case of the Quetta massacre, another country (read India) could join hands with America to commit this evil deed. Those who investigate the massacre should keep the idea of foreign hand (beruni hath) in their mind.
Earlier in 2003, someone had killed scores of Hazaras in Quetta. This was followed by more Shias killed in Karachi in the Suparco ambush. While everyone was blaming India, a retaliatory attack killed the leader of Sipah Sahaba, Maulana Azam Tariq, in Islamabad. Sipah Sahaba had been directly accused by the leading cleric of the Hazaras earlier. The FIR lodged after the assassination was against the rival sectarian party, not India. Still later, the man who masterminded the ashura massacre of Quetta was arrested and turned out to be linked to the various jihadi organisations whose warriors move around freely among sister organisations and kill on the orders of the same ‘high command’ that tried to kill President Musharraf and Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz at the behest of Al Qaeda’s Aiman al Zawahiri.
If we want to get rid of the curse of sectarian killing, we must first get rid of the no-Muslim-can-do-it rhetoric that most politicians and opinion-writers find it convenient to use as a device of collective denial. No solidarity among Muslims can be built on the basis of a prevarication. The Shia-Sunni violence has been brought about, not by India and the United States, but by the state of Pakistan itself. When and how it was brought about by an Islamising state is known to those who have kept watch on the process started by General Zia. Today as we approach the clues on the Sialkot massacre of the Shias we should have the guts — if the evidence proves it — to name the ‘banned organisation’ and say that no ‘external hand’ was involved.
Didnt you just mentioned that there is a level of bad?! What if I say there r JEWISH Groups sponsoring killings in their home land on innocent Palis?!
I’m surprised that you never knew about this.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
What if I say there r JEWISH Groups sponsoring killings in their home land on innocent Palis?!
I'm surprised that you never knew about this.
[/QUOTE]
That's your opinion. What has that to do with this thread?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iconoclast: *
And before u put it all on hindu train burning,let me remind u that the inquiry into the train burning concluded that the fire started "inside" the train.
[/QUOTE]
what is the difference if it took place at the hands of a muslim mob?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Talwar: *
According to the investigating agencies, clues have been uncovered about the Zainabia Mosque bombers and they lead to a ‘banned militant organisation’ that had earlier ‘struck in Quetta and Karachi’. The bombs used in the mosque explosion were locally made, but the attackers had used Indian-made explosive material: 2.5 kg explosive powder and one kg steel nails. The second bomb, found outside the mosque, consisted of two devices. It weighed 7 kg but luckily was defused. This second device, too, was found to have Indian components. But Indian explosive powder, it was said, was available at **chemical shops in Pakistan*. The bomber had used double the usual quantity of explosive powder, which increased the force of the bomb.
[/QUOTE]
Now this is the most stupiest thing I have ever heard. What is this some "tori, phindi" that you buy from local shops?!? Ppl just use your brains once, don't you think you need special "permission" to buy such stuffs? I can consider this a fact on the black market, but then who is sellin and who is buyin?!
This is so obvious! The writer just neutralizes the report with this claim!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
That's your opinion. What has that to do with this thread?
[/QUOTE]
I remember you: THERE R DIFF LEVELS of BAD an dude this is a fact not my opinion.
Sure sure. It’s all the fault of eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Hindus.
Us cunning Hindus have them mind control rays that force innocent Sipah-e-Sahaba and LeJ workers to think hate about Shias. US cunning Hindus use telekinesis to assemble a bomb onto the body of LeJ man.
Man, God has given us cunning Hindus some wondrous powers to wreak on those poor Pakistanis.
Iconoclast, the fire started from inside, meaning the mob did not do it? What about the reports that the mob broke the windows and threw burning bottles of petrol and locked the doors from outside. Well, that must have been some hindus in the mob who did it, right? Anyway, my point is there is a difference between cultures here. One believes in the idea that all people and religions are equal, whereas the other believes in the superiority of muslims over Kufrs (basically subhumans). I am not in support of the riots of any kind, but our media and institutions, however faulty, have highlighted the situation and are tackling it. Muslims like to remind people of other cultures of their conscience by bringing up their faults, like mentioning Babri masjid and Gujarat riots. But where is your media and reports on attacks on temples after falling of Babri Masjid. Where are your media reports and discussions on the disappearence of the Hindu minority of Pakistan which was 16% in 1972 and now is less than 1%. What happened to them, where did they disappear. Who cares, they were Kufr's (subhuman) anyway. We believe in Muslim vs Rest of the world, not one humanity. We demand justice only when muslims get hit. It is the height of temerity when Pakistanis fault Indians on the treatment of their minorities.
its amusing to see our well intentioned neigbours show up at these threads and start whining, and start their usual under handed stuff :) saalay as if we dont know what you are doing.
and then one problem takes place in india and all they can whimper is "ISI" ... ISI na hua, koi ifreet ho gaya.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Surya: *
Anyway, my point is there is a difference between cultures here. One believes in the idea that all people and religions are equal, whereas the other believes in the superiority of muslims over Kufrs
[/QUOTE]
ummm since when did hinduism start believing that all people and religions are equal? brahmins are dalits are not equal in hinduism let alone dirty non hindus..chee cheee..ashnan karna parray ga ab un ka naam lenay ki wajah say.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Surya: *
Iconoclast, the fire started from inside, meaning the mob did not do it? What about the reports that the mob broke the windows and threw burning bottles of petrol and locked the doors from outside. Well, that must have been some hindus in the mob who did it, right? Anyway, my point is there is a difference between cultures here. One believes in the idea that all people and religions are equal, whereas the other believes in the superiority of muslims over Kufrs (basically subhumans). I am not in support of the riots of any kind, but our media and institutions, however faulty, have highlighted the situation and are tackling it. Muslims like to remind people of other cultures of their conscience by bringing up their faults, like mentioning Babri masjid and Gujarat riots. But where is your media and reports on attacks on temples after falling of Babri Masjid. Where are your media reports and discussions on the disappearence of the Hindu minority of Pakistan which was 16% in 1972 and now is less than 1%. What happened to them, where did they disappear. Who cares, they were Kufr's (subhuman) anyway. We believe in Muslim vs Rest of the world, not one humanity. We demand justice only when muslims get hit. It is the height of temerity when Pakistanis fault Indians on the treatment of their minorities.
[/QUOTE]
Surya , do u ever think over what u have written?
Why do u need us to remind u of armed gangs of upper hindu casts raping and killing Dalits and u accuse us of taking others as subhuman?
Should i remind u of ur culture?Don't u have the doctrine that Dalits have been created from feet god and brahmans from his head?
Can u tell us why are the penalities of committing same crime different for Dalits and Brahmans in Hindu Religion?
And Muslims do not take others as subhuman,although they do beleive non-muslims cannot achieve salvation and this is not unique to Islam.Christians and Jews ahve the same beleifs.
Planned Muslim Genocide in India
For talwaar and surya to eat:
But the attacks on Muslim properties and persons which started in Ahmedabad and some other urban and semi-urban areas of Gujarat on 28th February, were based on detailed information including the possession of lists. As the NHRC Interim Report points out there were “widespread reports and allegations of groups of well-organized persons, armed with mobile telephones and addresses, singling out certain homes and properties for death and destruction in certain districts…” Gujarat VHP Chairman Prof. Shastri claims that these lists were prepared only on February 28th morning. Even if this was true, it begs another question. What was the data base on which basis this list was prepared, and who prepared the basic document[s] and when? That surely could not have been prepared for tens of thousands of Muslim properties and residences just in one morning.
Earlier attempts at the preparation of such lists are a matter of public record or widely reported. On February 1st/2nd 1999, the then Director of Police [Intelligence] P.B. Upadhyaya sent a confidential circular ordering all Police Commissioners and district police officers to provide details including addresses of existing Muslim organisations, their leaders, as well as the names and addresses of Muslims participating in certain religious activities and related matters. [See Appendix 1] This circular, and a similar one pertaining to Christians, was challenged in the Gujarat High Court, and withdrawn a month later. Though this circular was withdrawn, some details about Muslim institutions and individuals along with their addresses, must have been collected in the intervening one month period.
Victims and other informants claimed that months earlier, persons claiming to represent a market survey firm visited their establishments to collect data about ownership, production, sales, number of employees, etc. They now believe that this may have been a prior attempt at ethnic mapping to identify Muslim businesses and establishments. The Gujarati language press allegedly played its part. On the basis of their experiences of earlier riots a number of Muslim entrepreneurs gave non-Muslim, mainly Hindu, names to their establishments, so that these were not readily identified as Muslim. It was claimed that some eight months earlier, Sandesh had published an article in which it listed many such establishments pointing out that despite their names these were Muslim owned. The rioters however, also attacked establishments that had Muslim ‘sleeping partners,’ a fact not widely known. It would appear therefore, that the mob leaders had access to government records from the sales tax/excise departments and the like, not normally available to the average citizen.
Another fact that appears to indicate prior planning for a communal attack according to informants is the collection of liquefied petroleum gas [LPG] gas cylinders. It is claimed that for some two weeks before February.28th, LPG cylinders were in short supply in Ahmedabad, and middle class consumers had to book them and stay in queue. But the rioters who took over Ahmedabad from February 28th were armed with thousands of LPG gas cylinders, obviously collected in advance, which they used to blow up Muslim commercial establishments and residences in the days that followed. These LPG cylinders are bulky and heavy metal cylinders that can only be transported by medium or heavy vehicles. The fact that such vehicles [including tempos and trucks], were available along with the much sought after LPG cylinders appears to indicate prior planning of some weeks, not to speak of days.
Taken together, all the available evidence including media reports, the reports of informants, eyewitnesses and others, appears to indicate a carefully planned attack over time on Muslim properties and persons throughout the State, beginning with Ahmedabad, with State connivance. The attack, it would appear, was planned well before February 27th. The ghastly events of Godhra appear to have merely provided the trigger for an anti-Muslim pogrom prepared well in advance.
Ecxerpts from:
Gujarat Carnage 2002
A Report To the Nation
By
An Independent Fact Finding Mission:
Dr. Kamal Mitra Chenoy
S.P.Shukla
K.S. Subramanian
Achin Vanaik