Ravage.. Punjabi vich aakh…Urdu Murdoo san nae aandi. Pakistan aagay hey!
apologies madhanee, replacing with something even more relevant..
:k:
challo..that’s nice. at least you got the masculine thing right - unlike Pathans. But what in the hell does it make any difference who comes and participates here? If you don’t like people participating here, take a hike and find a place where you like people. It is sicking and tiring to read someone wants someone banned or to be out of this thread and that thread.
dekho baat yay hey kay I appreciate anyone being involved so long as their motive is not to divert and restrict the discussion into petty political point scoring.
ISI, RAW jitnay bhi aholes karwatay hein jo kuch bhi, I frankly do not care who talks about it. But the fact that one poster has consistently hogged this discussion in order to reflect on his specific political worldview in a thread that is discussing a very, very sensitive topic to me is the obnoxiousness equivalent of a 911 thread being hijacked on September 12 2001 by anti americans who wish to talk about global warming. If and when that happens I do oppose that when I see it.
edit: madhanee check inbox.
Oyes shut up with your worldy philosophical bukbuk. Do you mean to tell me that by discussing this topic here you are (somehow) going to bring the dead back? Or change the course of Paksitan in terms of minorities? Easy. Anyone who thinks that someone comes to GS with some agenda is an idiot and a jackass. I honestly don’t think that you think that.
anywaz, I am out of here, and now go back to whatever you wre discussing with Talwar.
Talwar,
Thank you Madhanee!
Ravage,
My point has been consistent. I have been watching the reaction here after sectarian attacks, many of which occurred in the past few months - sadly.
The general pattern has been:
This is a tragedy.
People who did this have to be punished
both of which are quite natural.
But the sad part is that you have a bunch of people, stating that this is all a conspiracy from abroad, with RAW being the main culprit. Then you have these people saying that "True Muslims cannot do this" etc.
I'm not going to argue whether foreign agencies have never been involved in attacks inside Pakistan. What I do know is that sectarianism in Pakistan is homegrown and has very little to do with foreigners creating mischief.
Am I saying that Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan hate each other or will cause civil war? Absolutely not. I have Pakistani friends. I know families with Shia and Sunni relatives. I know most people don't hold any sectarian ideas.
What I pointed out is that there exists a segment of population in Pakistan that preaches hate against other sects. The evidence of this is overwhelming. There is also considerable proof that certain state agencies have supported these bigots in the past. If not how can they survive despite being "banned?" At the very least, the Pakistani authorities do not feel that these groups merit the same type of response as others who defy state writ. Just compare the treatment of the SSP types versus the harshness against peasants in Okara.
I do not feel any glee or any satisfaction in pointing out these things. I know leaders in my country have on occasion felt it convenient to blame others for internal problems.
But the level of denial exhibited by some folks here is mindboggling. I mean, after every attack these killers openly say why they did it but people still blame other countries. You might say it's none of my business. But with that logic, half the threads on Gupistan would be gone. You have Pakistanis talking about Indian topics, Arabs talking about Americans and the whole mix here.
That is where I'm coming from. Kindly take it whichever way you prefer.
Talwar to summarise your post
- most shia and sunni people in Pakistan do not preach or condone this violence
- a certain small minority preaches hatred
- some people are in denial and believe everything is at the hand of foreign agencies, which is in your opinion overblown because the agencies may do some of it but not everything.
That is the context most of us came into the thread with. Maybe some people believe the agencies are responsible for more of the stuff than you do, but everyone here knows the rest. You do not need to isolate one or two of the oddballs and pick fights with them and even more disconnected with reality imaginary enemies at the expense of the rest of us.
Secondly that is not the entirety of the point that you're making. You keep bringing ISI up. Unless you can show that you are merely interested in saving RAW/India from bad rap and the ISI/Pakistan links were merely incidental you have to admit that you were going beyond standing up for rationality and venturing into scoring political points off people's deaths, the same points that you have attempted to score for ages in your life as a recluse talking to himself in the Kashmir forum and laughing at his own jokes.
KARACHI, Aug 30: Balochistan Chief Minister Jam Mohammad Yusuf Speaking at the Meet the Press programme of Karachi Press Club that RAW was running terrorist camps in Iran and Afghanistan. "It has now set up 30 to 40 such camps in Balochistan, each with training facility for 30 people who are paid Rs10,000 monthly.
"The monthly expenses of each such camp are over Rs0.4 million. The money is being supplied from abroad," he alleged. He promised that names of the held terrorists would be disclosed once the ongoing investigations concluded.
He told a questioner that "Al Qaeda is not involved in these activities." He also accused terrorists, trained in Punjab, of causing sectarian violence in his province. He denied that any operation had been launched by the army in Balochistan but conceded that an 'operation cleanup' had been launched by the local administration with the assistance of Frontier Constabulary, Levies and the Navy.
Few excerpts from golbal security.org about RAW activities:
"In 1968 India established this special branch of its intelligence service specifically targeted on Pakistan. The formation of RAW was based on the belief that Pakistan was supplying weapons to Sikh terrorists, and providing shelter and training to the guerrillas in Pakistan. Pakistan has accused the Research and Analysis Wing of sponsoring sabotage in Punjab, where RAW is alleged to have supported the Seraiki movement, providing financial support to promote its activities in Pakistan and organizing an International Seraiki Conference in Delhi in November-December 1993. RAW has an extensive network of agents and anti-government elements within Pakistan, including dissident elements from various sectarian and ethnic groups of Sindh and Punjab. Published reports allege that as many as 35,000 RAW agents have entered Pakistan between 1983-93, with 12,000 are working in Sindh, 10000 in Punjab 8000 in North West Frontier Province and 5000 in Balochistan. As many as 40 terrorist training camps at Rajasthan, East Punjab, Held Kashmir, Uttar Pradesh and other parts of India are run by the RAW's Special Service Bureau (SSB). "
RAW has an extensive network of agents and anti-government elements within Pakistan, including dissident elements from various sectarian and ethnic groups of Sindh and Punjab
"Throughout the Afghan War RAW was responsible for the planning and execution of terrorist activities in Pakistan to deter Pakistan from support of Afghan liberation movement against India's ally, the Soviet Union. The assistance provided to RAW by the KGB enabled RAW to arrange terrorist attacks in Pakistani cities throughout the Afghan War. The defeat of the Soviet Union in Afghanistan did not end the role of RAW in Pakistan, with reports that suggest that India has established a training camp in the town of Qadian, in East Punjab, where non-Muslim Pakistanis are trained for terrorist activities. Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif has blamed India for funding the current upsurge of terrorism in Pakistan, and senior ministers have blamed the Research and Analysis Wing for the sectarian violence between Shias and Sunnis which has resulted in thousands of deaths every year"
Ravage,
I brought up the ISI because it is a well known fact that many of the groups targeting Shias in Pakistan have received sustenance from the agency.
You cannot target the killers unless you know and understand why it is that they became strong and why some of them thrive despite being banned.
Can you tell me why groups like SSP/LeJ have survived until now? Musharraf announced a "crackdown" on them in the summer of 2001. So how come they are still around and capable enough to retaliate within a day of the killing of one of their "heroes?"
how come AQ is around enough to make life hell in Iraq?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
how come AQ is around enough to make life hell in Iraq?
[/QUOTE]
False analogy.
AQ leaders are not part of the interim government are they? Or are AQ leaders allowed to contest and win elections there?
If Zarqawi comes out openly tomorrow in a rally, how many minutes will he survive? Can you say the same about SSP leaders in Pakistan?
or rss/bjp leaders in india :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
or rss/bjp leaders in india :)
[/QUOTE]
Another bogus comparison.
RSS/BJP are comparable to Jamaat-e-Islami in Pakistan or the mainstream religious parties.
They may have some who hold radical views but as parties, they are not banned by their respective governments.
On the other hand, SSP/LeJ are officiallyy banned by the government of Pakistan but still operate openly. Their leaders contest for elections and organize rallies inciting hatred despite being banned.
Come back with a better attempt. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
They may have some who hold radical views but as parties, they are not banned by their respective governments.
[/QUOTE]
thats sad, atleast RSS should be banned, but I guess they are not considered bad :)
There are different levels of bad.
Would Pakistanis support the banning of JI just because their leaders say Jews did 9/11?
OTOH, the SSP types openly call for the elimination of other sects/minorities and have used the gun for that purpose. That is why they were banned.
The question is - Why are their leaders not in prison?
Dude then who is killing and burning christian priests in India and raping Muslims and killing them?
Now if no one Bans RSS in India this does not give them legitimacy.
Mad-man,
Looks like you haven’t read any of those posts. Have u? Otherwise u wouldnt utter such crap. Chalo sahi hai…you been posting crap since the very beginning one or two more won’t make any difference.
Now let me explain that to you this way. Money flows to bad ppl, bad ppl exist every where. Bad ppl’s family can survive another yr. Now baddies goes to Mad-man and buys some Anti Shia Flag (since its a buy one get one free situation) with some C2, after making a video/ audio tape (gone through censorship, cutting, editing etc etc) and publishing their release by CNN n CO, he hads to the mosque…the rest is history i guess. Maybe this is an enlightment for you, dear!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iconoclast: *
Dude then who is killing and burning christian priests in India and raping Muslims and killing them?
Now if no one Bans RSS in India this does not give them legitimacy.
[/QUOTE]
There is a differnece between rioting, mob violence and militia groups.
Recently, Islami Jamiat Tulaba people were found instigating the anti-Sikh attacks in Nankana Sahib. Does that mean that JI should be banned? Or given that it is not, is Pakistan giving legitimacy to the attacks?
Compare apples to apples.
Groups that use AK-47s and bombs to target other sects and openly say so are different from run of the mill relgious extremists.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
There are different levels of bad.
[/QUOTE]
That post needs to be in the JOKE Forum. This is the worst bulls*** i have ever heard!