Explosion at a mosque in Sialkot-ehsan/Sectarianism in Pakistan-MadSci

[ehsan]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
It is also a shame that some people make statements that are inaccurate and downright false.

It is also a shame that when people ask proof for the wild allegations, some people fell threatened and make personal attacks. Afterall, if RAW has initiated sectarian attacks in the past, there must be some proof of such acts, right?

It is a darn shame that people don't understand that violent attacks cannot be stopped unless people understand who perpetrates them and for what reasons.

Without knowing who is doing the attacks and what ideology motivates the killers, one fails to see how future attacks can be prevented. It is a shame that some find that hard to understand and attribute malicious reasons to those who point out facts.
[/QUOTE]

You are the one who asks for proof at any mention of RAW while claiming that apart from yourself everyone else make inaccurate and downright false statements. Have you ever thought that you may also be doing the same thing. Posting all these articles does not mean much as I have said both sides can produce a number of media report to advance their case. I am certainly not going to get involved in that as I said before we should concentrate on how these guys should be dealt with.

You can continue with your single point agenda, which loses all its potency after a while as everyone knows you are not interested in serious disccussion but only want to take any opportunity to defame the country and try and create and incite strife. So go ahead.

Spock, I dont think RAW is behind this, I beleive that it is the extremist elements and they should be dealt with firm hand. At the same time I do not believe that people who come here and tell us that RAW has never interfered in our country. Talk about living in cuckoo land.

[Surya]

It is no surprise that everyone here has their own little conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories are a way of life for some.

www.memritv.org

[lost_soul]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sadiqaan: *
The fact that a hate group like SSP can even get one seat in the highest legislature in Pakistan is enough for one to be ashamed of being Pakistani. Irem, you are sadly speaking from conjecture and what you wish the truth should be......

Well, not just the SSP, but do you know that the governer of Sindh also has some cases pending against him in the court of law and he has been implicated in some murder cases. I know, its very sad that we select people from such ethnic and sectarian outfits to rule us.

[Ali_R]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
To all those suggesting this was an attempt by RAW. I have a question, there are extremists in Pakistan who are not happy with the way Musharraf is cracking down on them, dont you think they can be behind these attacks? People like Riaz Basra, who openly declared that Shias were to be killed are Pakistanis too, and you guys should have seen the picture of his janazah, and see the thousands of people/discipiles that showed up. Yes, there are Muslims, and even Pakistanis who would do anything to destabilize the country, and even though no one really knows who was responsible for this particular attack, they are a likely possibility.

Read Fraudia's post again, it makes perfect sense to me...

[/QUOTE]

There r Spock there are these incidents.
But what would be more convincing for a Pakistani to believe? A RAW issue or a Sunni Shia conflict? I guess the second and same goes for those who have a hate for SUNNI or SHIA.
I didn't mean those attacks must be directly executed by RAW but definately there is some money flowing in from outter sources dont you think?
Regarding the wahabis if they have so much hate for SHIAs and it even might be that they do sponsor such attacks, but then why dont they vanish or/and ban every single "sect", especially the AHMADIS??

You know the most ironic thing? We fight and talk against indians but when it comes to that issue we support them on their views and opinion. Its one big thing i have noticed over my last 2-3 yrs on this board. A SHAME, i have never seen Indians doing the same, when it comes to Casts and Sects! I guess thats why we Muslims never been united!

[Ali_R]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Surya: *
It is no surprise that everyone here has their own little conspiracy theory. Conspiracy theories are a way of life for some.

www.memritv.org
[/QUOTE]

You guyz are like unwanted breed, pop out of your HOLES when there is thunder storm, aight?!

[antiobl]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
.... but definately there is some money flowing in from outter sources dont you think?....
[/QUOTE]

Yes the money is flowing from Saudi charities. They are the ones funding MAToos to go explode in the middle of Namazis.

Butchers!

How could these Munkees create a 3 foot deep, and 2 foot wide crater in the middle of a mosque?

How could they kill 30+ innocents listening to Quran?

How could they chop of limbs of so many fathers ready to take the Islamic faith back to their kids.

How could they kill sons who were asking for Bakhshish (forgiveness) of their old parents.

How could they maim brothers, who would have put purdah (protected) their sisters and sent them off on their weddings.

How could they?

MAToos did it just to please their Arrra-bobo masters.

May Allah burn (nay explode) them in hell forever.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
..... i have never seen Indians doing the same, when it comes to Casts and Sects! ...
[/QUOTE]

Save us from your Bharati models. They just burned and hacked 2000+ minority members. They also felt obliged to throw 30,000+ in concentration camps. Yeap! Bharatis are the model of tolerance for these MAToo supporters.

[Ali_R]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Yes the money is flowing from Saudi charities. They are the ones funding MAToos to go explode in the middle of Namazis.

Butchers!

How could these Munkees create a 3 foot deep, and 2 foot wide crater in the middle of a mosque?

How could they kill 30+ innocents listening to Quran?

How could they chop of limbs of so many fathers ready to take the Islamic faith back to their kids.

How could they kill sons who were asking for Bakhshish (forgiveness) of their old parents.

How could they maim brothers, who would have put purdah (protected) their sisters and sent them off on their weddings.

How could they?

MAToos did it just to please their Arrra-bobo masters.

May Allah burn (nay explode) them in hell forever.

Save us from your Bharati models. They just burned and hacked 2000+ minority members. They also felt obliged to throw 30,000+ in concentration camps. Yeap! Bharatis are the model of tolerance for these MAToo supporters.
[/QUOTE]

Either the person who is reading my posts is blinded with hatred and prejudice or I'm just having a hard time with this fellow.....

Read the last part of my post again before u post your senseless comments.
So Saudi Gov. is all behind this mess, aight? I say go and get them, why there is a solid hand shake between BUSH and Prince Abdullah whenever they meet?!
Hypocritzes!

[Talwar]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ehsan: *

You are the one who asks for proof at any mention of RAW while claiming that apart from yourself everyone else make inaccurate and downright false statements. Have you ever thought that you may also be doing the same thing. Posting all these articles does not mean much as I have said both sides can produce a number of media report to advance their case. I am certainly not going to get involved in that as I said before we should concentrate on how these guys should be dealt with.

You can continue with your single point agenda, which loses all its potency after a while as everyone knows you are not interested in serious disccussion but only want to take any opportunity to defame the country and try and create and incite strife. So go ahead.

Spock, I dont think RAW is behind this, I beleive that it is the extremist elements and they should be dealt with firm hand. At the same time I do not believe that people who come here and tell us that RAW has never interfered in our country. Talk about living in cuckoo land.
[/QUOTE]

I have not made any inaccurate or false statements here, at least on this thread. If I have, please tell me what they are and prove that they are false.

You accuse me of some agenda. I only posted those links after some people blamed RAW for this attack without even a shred of evidence.

I never claimed that RAW has never interfered in Pakistan, but only that the sectarian violence in Pakistan is largely home driven by a small but powerful minority. I proved it with solid links. RAW may have interfered in other areas, but sectarianism has very little to do with RAW.

Besides, if you read my sources, all of which were Pakistani, you'd see that ISI had stronger links to sponsoring sectarianism in Pakistan than any foreign agency.

You on the other hand don't have a shred of evidence to prove that I'm trying to "defame" or "cause strife". Everything I posted is with solid proof. If you have the ability, post links and dispute it. Don't attribute motives to me.

What I sense is that you are unhappy because I speak the truth that you are uncomfortable with. I did not force Pakistani reporters and experts to write about sectarianism in Pakistan or how your agencies supported them.

Just face it - Sectarianism in Pakistan is largely a home grown thing. I prove my point with solid, Pakistani sources and you have nothing of that sort.

[ravage]

miyan talvar, you just dont get it. most of us are too busy dealing with this issue to indulge you in your lets post the link that most favours my worldview game. get the fck out of this thread. next time when you see a thread that suggests to your mind that a number of Pakistanis may have died, consider scoring political points elsewhere. I do not care whether or not we indicted any RAW agents or Mossad agents, that foreign hands do operate in Pakistan, and do fund religious extremists is conventional wisdom. you may disagree with it, fine. go play in your own playpen (cue: Kashmir forum) where Pakistan as defined by a Hindu from India who's never actually been fckin close to Pakistan is infact Pakistan..

I do wish though that more of the people who are vocal in the religious forum condemn this, because ultimately it is people who are inordinately, misguidedly religiously inclined who do this sort of stuff.

I could at this point paste various gems by some of those people who either made excuses for or outright called for the killing of shias. But given that this thread has spanned so many posts primarily because of Sunni condemnation it would be out of spirit.

Merely a request for my Sunni brethren. If you notice yourself going down a religious path that may have become religiously fashionable today as the alternative, rebellious, path, check yourself. See what those who advocate this path most strongly advocate about other paths in Islam, perhaps murder? See how recent this alternative, revisionist interpretation of Islam is. See if it is even Sunni'ism. Otherwise ultimately you will either condone this brutality that you resent today or commit it.

[HSK]

The religion of peace. Really?

[ehsan]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

I have not made any inaccurate or false statements here, at least on this thread. If I have, please tell me what they are and prove that they are false.

You accuse me of some agenda. I only posted those links after some people blamed RAW for this attack without even a shred of evidence.

I never claimed that RAW has never interfered in Pakistan, but only that the sectarian violence in Pakistan is largely home driven by a small but powerful minority. I proved it with solid links. RAW may have interfered in other areas, but sectarianism has very little to do with RAW.

Besides, if you read my sources, all of which were Pakistani, you'd see that ISI had stronger links to sponsoring sectarianism in Pakistan than any foreign agency.

You on the other hand don't have a shred of evidence to prove that I'm trying to "defame" or "cause strife". Everything I posted is with solid proof. If you have the ability, post links and dispute it. Don't attribute motives to me.

What I sense is that you are unhappy because I speak the truth that you are uncomfortable with. I did not force Pakistani reporters and experts to write about sectarianism in Pakistan or how your agencies supported them.

Just face it - Sectarianism in Pakistan is largely a home grown thing. I prove my point with solid, Pakistani sources and you have nothing of that sort.
[/QUOTE]

Only two points I will make:

First you have agreed that you make inaccurate or false statements, even if you havent made any on this thread, all according to your own above statement.

Secondly, if you read my points above I have not blamed RAW for this and have acknowledged that this is a home grown problem. So what is the problem. If you want me to acknowledge that RAW does not interfere in our affairs than you can wait for the rest of your life and you will not get such an acknowledgement from me, because it is simply not true. Sorry to burst your bubble and not give you further excuse to pursue your single point agenda.

[Talwar]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
miyan talvar, you just dont get it. most of us are too busy dealing with this issue to indulge you in your lets post the link that most favours my worldview game. get the fck out of this thread.

[/QUOTE]

You don't own this thread miyan ravage.

You have no problems with people who use such tragedies to blame RAW or foreigners with no proof.

Since Gupistan has people from all over South Asia, you cannot expect that people can post wild allegations of Indian involvement in such atrocities without rebuttals.

In short - don't blame RAW and expect us to be silent. If you want to, start your own forum and post whatever atrocious claims you want to, but not here.

[Talwar]

*Originally posted by ehsan: *

Only two points I will make:

First you have agreed that you make inaccurate or false statements, even if you havent made any on this thread, all according to your own above statement.

Secondly, if you read my points above I have not blamed RAW for this and have acknowledged that this is a home grown problem. So what is the problem. If you want me to acknowledge that RAW does not interfere in our affairs than you can wait for the rest of your life and you will not get such an acknowledgement from me, because it is simply not true. Sorry to burst your bubble and not give you further excuse to pursue your single point agenda.

By your logic - If Musharraf says Pakistan is not involved in a particular attack inside India, he has tacitly agreed that Pakistan is involved in other attacks?

I repeat - what are the so called false statements you are talking about? And do you have any proof?

Kindly go back and see your own countrymen blaming RAW explicitly for this attack without a shred of evidence. As a moderator, isn’t it your job to chastise people who are making wild allegations rather than psychoanalyzing those who have backed up their claims with proof?

Who has an agenda here? Those who use these tragedies to blame other nations or those who ask for proof of these allegations?

[Ali_R]

*Originally posted by Talwar: *

By your logic - If Musharraf says Pakistan is not involved in a particular attack inside India, he has tacitly agreed that Pakistan is involved in other attacks?

I repeat - what are the so called false statements you are talking about? And do you have any proof?

Kindly go back and see your own countrymen blaming RAW explicitly for this attack without a shred of evidence. As a moderator, isn’t it your job to chastise people who are making wild allegations rather than psychoanalyzing those who have backed up their claims with proof?

Who has an agenda here? Those who use these tragedies to blame other nations or those who ask for proof of these allegations?

Your first para doesnt have anything to do with what Ehsan bhai has posted.
Your statements and blames have no proof and as others are agreed here u only want to see links and sources which are suitable for you and your ideology.

I say its Gandhi, now proof that wrong!

[ThandyMazaq]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by lost soul: *

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sadiqaan: *
The fact that a hate group like SSP can even get one seat in the highest legislature in Pakistan is enough for one to be ashamed of being Pakistani. Irem, you are sadly speaking from conjecture and what you wish the truth should be......

Well, not just the SSP, but do you know that the governer of Sindh also has some cases pending against him in the court of law and he has been implicated in some murder cases. I know, its very sad that we select people from such ethnic and sectarian outfits to rule us.
[/QUOTE]

sadiqain would better serve us to answer how can a terrorist organization that was responsible for deaths of so many innocent men, soldiers and police officiers and destruction of the live of an entire city MQM allowed to get elected to both provincial and national assemblies in large numbers? they have the government in sindh...yet in karachi their death squads were busy killing people not very long ago....it is easy to point fingers at SSP who only got ONE seat..while forgetting the secualr fascist terrorists who are just as bad if not worse than the SSP and Laskar e jhangvi types....

[ravage]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

You don't own this thread miyan ravage.

You have no problems with people who use such tragedies to blame RAW or foreigners with no proof.

Since Gupistan has people from all over South Asia, you cannot expect that people can post wild allegations of Indian involvement in such atrocities without rebuttals.

In short - don't blame RAW and expect us to be silent. If you want to, start your own forum and post whatever atrocious claims you want to, but not here.
[/QUOTE]

As a shia who feels this tragedy much more personally than you, I find your presence in this thread as a Hindu from India with no intention or interest here except to grind a political axe highly offensive. Therefore, once again, kindly get the fck out of here.

as for posting wild allegations about RAW involvement, that is the nature of security agencies. If one could always post concrete allegations about any security agency then that agency is fckin incompetant. I do not consider even your country's agency to be that.

You yourself HAVE admitted that RAW does get involved in Pakistan, inexplicably though for not this issue. What then? Helping cotton mill workers avoid carpal tunnel syndrome? No. Presumably something an enemy country's agency would do. What then? You fcking dont know do you. If you dont know the extent of your counry's security agencies and know that it does very much involve disrupting peaceful life in Pakistan what in the name of hell are you doing limiting OUR discussion on it? You dont know it, we dont KNOW it, so if you do feel SUCH a profound itch up your backside to impose limitations on what can and cannot be attributed to RAW then go and find out for us the exact operations of RAW in Pakistan.

And once you come back with that list after becoming Intelligence director of Raw, heres what that would mean to us: hes a Hindu from India with a political axe to grind.

Take the hint.

[Ibn_Sadique]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
miyan talvar, you just dont get it. most of us are too busy dealing with this issue to indulge you in your lets post the link that most favours my worldview game. get the fck out of this thread. next time when you see a thread that suggests to your mind that a number of Pakistanis may have died, consider scoring political points elsewhere. I do not care whether or not we indicted any RAW agents or Mossad agents, that foreign hands do operate in Pakistan, and do fund religious extremists is conventional wisdom. you may disagree with it, fine. go play in your own playpen (cue: Kashmir forum) where Pakistan as defined by a Hindu from India who's never actually been fckin close to Pakistan is infact Pakistan..

I do wish though that more of the people who are vocal in the religious forum condemn this, because ultimately it is people who are inordinately, misguidedly religiously inclined who do this sort of stuff.

I could at this point paste various gems by some of those people who either made excuses for or outright called for the killing of shias. But given that this thread has spanned so many posts primarily because of Sunni condemnation it would be out of spirit.

Merely a request for my Sunni brethren. If you notice yourself going down a religious path that may have become religiously fashionable today as the alternative, rebellious, path, check yourself. See what those who advocate this path most strongly advocate about other paths in Islam, perhaps murder? See how recent this alternative, revisionist interpretation of Islam is. See if it is even Sunni'ism. Otherwise ultimately you will either condone this brutality that you resent today or commit it.
[/QUOTE]

ultimately it is people who are inordinately, misguidedly religiously inclined who do this sort of stuff.

This is so true.

May Allah (swt) have mercy on the deceased, restore to full health those who were injured and give strength to their near & dear ones to bear the tragic loss with patience hard as it may be (to bear).

[Talwar]

Ravage,

This is not your personal playground. There is no forum rule which says that Hindus cannot post on threads about Shias.

In Gupistan, Pakistanis have posted threads about Christian-Hindu violence in India. No one protested as to why Muslim Pakistanis would care about that, did they? This is a community and people of various faiths and nationalities interact. As long we all follow the rules and guidelines, no one should be offended. I have not used foul words like you or indulged in personal attacks.

In the interest of this thread, let's abandon this back and forth.

[Madhanee]

Yeah, it’s like telling Pakistanis not to watch bollywood movies. Ravage, take the pole out of your ass. The only sane voice in this thread is that of Talwar, everyone is trying to either feel a victim or trying hard to deny that his people could have comitted this disgusting crime.

Talwar, you are the best! If we could take 10 million Indians and make them Pakis, one more is not that big a burdon. You are most welcome. A true Pakistani (can’t speak for Chotiyas) welcomes everyone.

[ravage]

talvar miyan, before you start complaining about how my language burnt your virgin ears, answer the rest of my points, viz: (im taking the work fk out since you're so sensitivie to it)

[quote]

as for posting wild allegations about RAW involvement, that is the nature of security agencies. If one could always post concrete allegations about any security agency then that agency is incompetant. I do not consider even your country's agency to be that.

You yourself HAVE admitted that RAW does get involved in Pakistan, inexplicably though for not this issue. What then? Helping cotton mill workers avoid carpal tunnel syndrome? No. Presumably something an enemy country's agency would do. What then? You dont know do you. If you dont know the extent of your counry's security agencies and know that it does very much involve disrupting peaceful life in Pakistan what in the name of hell are you doing limiting OUR discussion on it? You dont know it, we dont KNOW it, so if you do feel SUCH a profound itch up your backside to impose limitations on what can and cannot be attributed to RAW then go and find out for us the exact operations of RAW in Pakistan.

And once you come back with that list after becoming Intelligence director of Raw, heres what that would mean to us: hes a Hindu from India with a political axe to grind.

[/quote]

Madhanee pehley khud to Pakistani bano phir duusron ko banao!