Sheraz bhai temi how many seats Sipah-e-Sahaba had in the national / provincial assemblies? very very very few
as for saudia arab...we all know who is the main power there...not the ppl..
khayr... :S
i jus saw the news coverage jus now on tv... :S how the ppl, young men, were wailing...next to the janazay wrapped in chaadrein...it was really soul shaking... :( really sad what has happenned...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Iconoclast: *
Sheraz CT
Have u ever thought how hate begets hate.
Have u ever thought if someone says to u ur mother is Kaffir,how will u feel.
Unfortunately,Shias had their role in the mess in which we are in now.
May Allah help us out of this and make the places of worship,our towns,cities and our children safe.
[/QUOTE]
iconoclast :S i dont agree with u and this aint the time to say this stuff even if u feel like this :S
khayr..
amen to ur prayer tho
See you have nothing to say other than your unproven and nonsensical beliefs. You disregard facts, news, statements and use only your “independent” maama said/chacha said “thinking.” Anything else reported in Pakistani media itself, you ignore.
Madrasay of SSP type are operating openly today in Pakistan. And you just spread open lies that they are closed. Do you have any single report of any ONE such place being closed? I can given you dozens of recent reports from Pakistani papers saying that they are still open.
You cannot even come up with a coherent response, so resort to “Talwar is Indian, so he must be wrong” type nonsense.
You haven’t presented one shred of evidence to prove your bogus claims that foreigners are behind this. Pakistani experts admit that the sectarian violence is started by Pakistanis, funded by Pakistanis, conducted by Pakistanis and excused by a few Pakistanis.
Get this one thing clear - Just because you hide your head in the sand doesn’t mean you can force people to ignore the facts. The fact is that there are extremist Sunnis in Pakistan who hate and kill Shias because that is what they are taught to do. This has been happening for a long time. Ther fact is also that Pak agencies have been supporting these groups for many reasons.
If you find truth uncomfortable to you, feel free to live in your dream world. Meanwhile, there will be others who see it for what it is.
And it is not a Jewish or Indian conspiracy. 
This is very much a religious based suicide bombing, since why else would a person of sane mind blow himself up to kill other people? The Wahabi faction is involved in propagating hatred towards other sects and non Muslims. It should come as no surprise that the ignorant mullahs will cling to the message of hatred and convince their madari students to kill Shias in the name of Allah.
The fact that a hate group like SSP can even get one seat in the highest legislature in Pakistan is enough for one to be ashamed of being Pakistani. Irem, you are sadly speaking from conjecture and what you wish the truth should be, not actual ground reality or facts. Pakistani society, especially the masses, have through years of extremist indoctrination by the state has turned into a blood thirsty and vengeful society that promotes conspiracy theories to justify its own acts of violence.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *
ppl who r religious dont go around killing others or participating in such activities
[/QUOTE]
Have you ever read history Irem? Or what about current news? Do you know what the crusades were? Do you know what today's jihad is? Do you know what Osama Bin Laden calls for? Do you know what the fatwa on Salman Rushdie was for?
irem,
every time you blindly blame indians for such incidents despite all sanity, it is an open invitation for indians to come and take the piss out of you. just so that you know. RAW my ass!
irem how about i pm you some websites and show you what wahabi mentality really is, its not specific to paksitan either, but it should be a real eye opener and a shocker. As much as i like to believe you, it seems you havent come across these kind of people in real life. really if we keep turning a blind eye, we are worsening the situation, and not improving it.
Allah knows best
i already explained my POV in the above posts, dont wana go thru a cycle of repeating myself
there's a million ways of interpreting facts and situations but what i wrote is what i truly believe to be the truth
i hate getting into arguments esp political ones but felt like i really needed to post in this thread...lekin im not gona debate here further, b/c as mr Fraudia said
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *
I do not want to cheapen the blood of those lost by political arguments, this is just a sad state of affairs.
[/QUOTE]
wasalam
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by irem: *
**Sheraz* bhai no offence u r like my bro but i dont agree with this thinking of urs...whenever an incident like this happens, why do u wana blame sunnis...or even the pak govt...
u r a MUSLIM and a PAKISTANI right? whether shia or sunni. do u think sunnis dont like shias? thats simply not true. and do u think the pak govt is anti-shia? thas simply not true either.
u r agreeing with TALWAR...an INDIAN! and not with Ali_R or me, u have to be on our side, not the indian side! u think in this matter an indian can ever be ur hamdard?
aap apno ko pehchanayn k aap k apnay kon haen, dont be blinded brother
our govt cant even stop ppl from attacking the president, and there's so much terrorism going on in all the cities...the govt is weak thas why..not coz its anti shia...
u know that after the bomb blast in karachi recently, when some shias were in the hospital and needed blood, a sunni was standing in line to give blood to those shias, and he was killed by passerby motorbikers shooting...
its not sunnis vs shias...its terrorists against all of us
even IF some anti-shia sunni forces were involved in this, they r obviously paid terrorists...and they certainly dont represent the majority sunni view...they r a small small small minority
u shud take this wehm out of ur mind that ppl in pakistan or the pakistani govt is anti-shia
nikhil >> when half the sunni population believes shias are non-muslims <<
thats not true
Talwar you're an Indian, i think that explains where u r coming from
Ali_R i totally agree with u
queer i think Ali_R answered the question u asked
antiobl i aint talkin to u if u dont tell me what MAToo means!!!
*Talwar, nikhil, queer and other indians * why do u indians wana come on pakistani boards and try to create disunity b/w us at such incidents? u wont succeed no matter how much u try bc no matter what at the end of the day despite everything we r united.
but ur attitude on this board jus reflects exactly what i'm talking abt in this thread...thats what happenning at the macro level as well...thats exactly the role ur govt is playing, trying to take advtg of different factions' emotions in pakistan and trying to spark disunity, but failing..and it will always fail...and trust me i dont think this is gona be beneficial to india either...a peaceful india and a peaceful pakistan and peace bw the two is better than constant enmity...dont u think? why dont u try to spend the same energy u r spending on disruptive aims towards some constructive purposes so all of us can benefit..coz right now no one is gaining anything from this approach of urs
i know all indians r not like u...its true that the majority of indians also want peace and want to live peaceful lives...u guys, who r trying to cause disunity and mischief, r in fact a minority...seriously, spend your time on better things
[/QUOTE]
it is obvious that you are a sunni, and you are trying to make a million and one excuses for how it could not have been other sunnis that did this. in addition, you hate india. so coupling your denial with your hatred for india....out comes this beautiful conspiracy theory of yours. mind you, you have offered absolutely no evidence of this, nor a reason for how RAW can convince someone to commit suicide for them.
like i said, overcoming denial is the first step to resolving this issue. casting blame on indians? how many shia mosques have been blown up? 1 per month. indians are doing all this? you need a dose of reality.
i agree that a peaceful pakistan and peaceful india is the best scenario. this has nothing to do with destabilizing pakistan. it is about HUMANITY. why are you so involved with the political and conspirational side of everything? shias are getting killed in your country on a weekly basis, and all you can do is blame india....bravo
It is utter nonsense to say that people like me who point out the facts are looking for strife within Pakistan.
I personally am saddened by these atrocities.
But the fact is that whenever random uninformed people blame RAW or Israel for these attacks, I will not hesitate to point out the truth to them.
Facts are facts and there are no two ways of interpreting them. And these facts, can be ascertained from media reports in Pakistan themselves. The undeniable facts are:
There are a significant number of Wahhabi and Deobandi anti-Shia mullahs in Pakistan and they have many madrassas and associated institutions. They can be found in Karachi, Southern Punjab and NWFP.
They are well organized and get money from within Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. The groups include Sipah-e-Sahaba and its offshoots.
These people are not insignificant and have received support from various Pakistani intelligence agencies in the past, for their actions in Afghanistan, Kashmir and elsewhere.
Their recruits are not always poor or gullible, but include well educated people who have been taught from childhood to hate.
Some of these groups have competed and won elections, indicating pockets of strong support.
Religious hatred has historically been the cause of violence. People who are religious have historically gone around killing others who they feel are not worthy. They are doing so today.
Yes, Muslims do kill fellow Muslims. In fact, in the 20th century, most Muslims slaughtered have been by fellow Muslims and this is not because some "foreign non-Muslim agents" paid them to do it.
There has not been a single case of sectarian violence in Pakistan which has been proven to be funded or instigated by non-Muslim foreign powers.
News reports most often are what they are. When an LeJ terrorist says on video that he hates Shias and will kill them, it essentially means the same.
Some people choose to live in denial, while others acknowledge facts.
It is a shame that a sad incident like this attracts people who want to score points and advance their hatred towards the country by siding with one side or the other. It is not nonsesne to say that people here are trying to advance strife by taking advantage of this sad incident. While every side can point to lot of media reports to advance their claims I personally feel it is a mixture of all these factors. Yes we have extreme idiots who are actively promoting sectarian voilence in the country, it is also a fact that foreign agencies like RAW will not hesitate to interfere. To say that RAW never interferes in Pakistan's affairs or that it does not take advantage of such incidents or at times maybe even initiate them, is simply not true.
However we have to look at our own afairs and try and root these evils out of country and make it strong. I dont care whether these animals are wahabis, sunnis, shias or RAW they should be dealt with a very firm hand. The debate should not be who is doing it but rather how they should be dealt with and how we can preempt their next move.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ehsan: *
It is a shame that a sad incident like this attracts people who want to score points and advance their hatred towards the country by siding with one side or the other. It is not nonsesne to say that people here are trying to advance strife by taking advantage of this sad incident. While every side can point to lot of media reports to advance their claims I personally feel it is a mixture of all these factors. Yes we have extreme idiots who are actively promoting sectarian voilence in the country, it is also a fact that foreign agencies like RAW will not hesitate to interfere. To say that RAW never interferes in Pakistan's affairs or that it does not take advantage of such incidents or at times maybe even initiate them, is simply not true.
However we have to look at our own afairs and try and root these evils out of country and make it strong. I dont care whether these animals are wahabis, sunnis, shias or RAW they should be dealt with a very firm hand. The debate should not be who is doing it but rather how they should be dealt with and how we can preempt their next move.
[/QUOTE]
this done by local extremist angered by musharuff's crackdown
It is also a shame that some people make statements that are inaccurate and downright false.
It is also a shame that when people ask proof for the wild allegations, some people fell threatened and make personal attacks. Afterall, if RAW has initiated sectarian attacks in the past, there must be some proof of such acts, right?
It is a darn shame that people don't understand that violent attacks cannot be stopped unless people understand who perpetrates them and for what reasons.
Without knowing who is doing the attacks and what ideology motivates the killers, one fails to see how future attacks can be prevented. It is a shame that some find that hard to understand and attribute malicious reasons to those who point out facts.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nikhil25: *
so RAW agents are lining up to be SUICIDE bombers just to "de-stabilize" pakistan?
somehow i doubt that...
when half the sunni population believes shias are non-muslims, you really think it's impossible that extremist wahabis would want to kill them?
overcoming denial is the first step to resolving this sad situation.
[/QUOTE]
Pouring oil into burning flames.....I call!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Surya: *
Ali, if it cheers you up, RAW was definitely behind this operation and I personally supervised it.
[/QUOTE]
And you r allowed to enter a PAKISTANI web site, if that has become so easy these dayz, then entering PAK must be a kids play for you.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
It is also a shame that some people make statements that are inaccurate and downright false.
It is also a shame that when people ask proof for the wild allegations, some people fell threatened and make personal attacks. Afterall, if RAW has initiated sectarian attacks in the past, there must be some proof of such acts, right?
It is a darn shame that people don't understand that violent attacks cannot be stopped unless people understand who perpetrates them and for what reasons.
Without knowing who is doing the attacks and what ideology motivates the killers, one fails to see how future attacks can be prevented. It is a shame that some find that hard to understand and attribute malicious reasons to those who point out facts.
[/QUOTE]
Talwar,
EIther u aint getting it or you just dont want to get it.
Decide between both.
I gave you my obeservation you said proof. I gave you my proof with my arguments you needed more. I posted a link you said the Media source is unreliable or the Author is not a buddy of yours.
Now what do you expect from us? That we agree on every point u state and every source you use?!
Cmon dear, this is a discussion board not a US Senate debate!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ali_R: *
Talwar,
EIther u aint getting it or you just dont want to get it.
Decide between both.
I gave you my obeservation you said proof. I gave you my proof with my arguments you needed more. I posted a link you said the Media source is unreliable or the Author is not a buddy of yours.
Now what do you expect from us? That we agree on every point u state and every source you use?!
Cmon dear, this is a discussion board not a US Senate debate!
[/QUOTE]
A guy who posts on a forum wrote an article on paknews.com and you call that proof? I can post on an Indian website saying that 9-11 was done by people from Mozambique. Does that make it true?
I repeat - Has Pakistan convicted RAW agents for any sectarian attack to date?
Have there been independent reports saying the same?
An eminently sensible editorial from Daily Times
But a deeply worrying aspect of these attacks and the people’s response to them is the fact that most Pakistanis think of them as the doing not of Islamists but of foreign intelligence agencies. This is patently absurd, given the overwhelming evidence of the involvement of Islamist extremists in sectarian attacks. It is very difficult to completely prevent the terrorists from successfully executing such operations but the government should make efforts to present the evidence before the people more effectively and co-opt them in fighting this menace. There is both a global and a local dimension to this issue. Since most of the extremists groups are now getting their directives from Al Qaeda and since Pakistanis find US policies abominable, the issues are getting confused – and so are the responses. The way some people behaved after the attack in Sialkot shows the success of the terrorists’ strategy. The terrorists know that by mounting more such attacks, they will be able to drive a deeper wedge between the people and a government that is seen as allied with America. The argument that “Muslims cannot do such a thing” also works to the advantage of the terrorists. This is the propaganda side of the issue and the government has so far badly lost out to the adversary on this score. Someone needs to take cognisance of this fact and formulate a more effective strategy to counter this.
Editorial from Dawn
http://www.dawn.com/2004/10/03/ed.htm
To all those suggesting this was an attempt by RAW. I have a question, there are extremists in Pakistan who are not happy with the way Musharraf is cracking down on them, dont you think they can be behind these attacks? People like Riaz Basra, who openly declared that Shias were to be killed are Pakistanis too, and you guys should have seen the picture of his janazah, and see the thousands of people/discipiles that showed up. Yes, there are Muslims, and even Pakistanis who would do anything to destabilize the country, and even though no one really knows who was responsible for this particular attack, they are a likely possibility.
Read Fraudia's post again, it makes perfect sense to me...
[quote]
elements do not need to be foriegn always to be anti-national. we have our own set of morons who want to destabilize and terrorize the country, foriegn hands may be involved, and it does not mean India, it can mean arab extremists who just want to partner with pakistani crazies and create havoc.
[/quote]