Imdad hates Punjabi people & Language.
Rajput, I am not sure your post is adding anything to the topic. Please refrain from finger pointing.
mmm...well being a memon, I can tell ya guys some stuff about us.
Stereotype: cheap, but filthy rich. Ex. Moin Akhtar's potrayal of Manzoor Danewala on Such Much (pak play). Hehe, I have to say, that image CAN BE accurate for some memon individuals.
Origins: Memons dont belong to a particular land, like Punjabis have punjab and Balochis have Balochistan. There was a population in Sindh (Thatta i think) that converted to Islam, and subsequently migrated for centuries here and there. The group got divided into KHOJAS, BHORIS, and MEMONS. I think the division was most likely religon based rather than geographical.
Memons mostly settled in present-day Gujrat,India and then most of THOSE memons ended up migrating to Pakistan after its formation, or they were already in Karachi beforehand.
Pockets of Concentration: Karachi, Bombay, Gujrat -- many other places, but these are the big three.
Dress: There was a particular dress, I'll post up a pic if I can, but rest assured, no one dresses like that anymore.
And well, I dont want to make this boring. If you have any questions feel free to ask!
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*Originally posted by funguy: *
Rajput, I am not sure your post is adding anything to the topic. Please refrain from finger pointing.
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Funguy
yara if you only knew everything behind Imdad's response then I'm sure you would see what I mean. You do have a point, let me say a few words about Punjabis:
Generous, Open Minded, Friendly, Excellent people to be around. Great food, lassi. Generally liberal in outlook and laid back in lifestyle, diverse in professions from being agriculturalists to scientists. Great music, with beats loved by people worldwide. Helpful to everyone in need.. To be continued
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*Originally posted by funguy: *
Chill out dude. Develop a love for other languages and cultures. I put up with your ENglish and Urdu too, don't I?. I would love if you can speak another language with me. Even if it is not something you speak fluently. It's like adding spice to food. Bring it on.
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My english and urdu? Since when is it mine? I don't start of speaking urdu to people I don't know. I always converse in english.
I have no problem with anyone speaking any language, just do it with your own people. I don't undersatnd a word of Punjabi, so don't expect any from me.
Rajput, another wrong assumtion on your part.
I suggest you keep it to yourself, the personal experiences I mean. If you base it on personal experiences then my personal experiences with some Punjabies will be nothing but offending.
I suggest you represent your own ethnicity; so far you haven't done that.
Its Pashtuns/Pakhtuns, not Pathans, I'll appreciated if you call us that.
And its Khushal Khan Khattak, who is a well known poet and writer but also a leader and a worrior to many Pashtun tribes. And Ghaffar Khan, a revolutionary, the first ever to come with the world very ever non-voilent army of 100,000 strong and that of Pashtun ethnicity called the "Servents of God". The man who inspired Gandhi. There was a resent article written by an Indian nationalist calling Gandhi the Ghaffar Khan of India, because it was Ghaffar Khan, not Gandhi who started the non-violent movement. Due to discrimination from Pakistans elite (the Punjabies) at that time, Ghaffar Khan and his life story was under the dust till recently.
Other history makers:
Ahmed Shah Abdali, Rahman Baba, Ghuri, Shir Sa Suri, Ajab Khan Afridi, Ghani Khan, Mullah Muhammad Omar, Gulbadeen Haqmatyar, Zahir Shah, Hamid Karzai, Mullah Zaeef.
Famous in india: Dalip Kumar, Sharukh Khan (Devdas), Amir Khan (Lagaan), Salman Khan, Amjid Khan (Sholay), Kadir Khan, Saif Ali Khan etc.. etc..
Lets not forget the dude who build the bomb for Pakistan, heck the guy who build it for India is also a Khan.
Pashtuns are famous for their hospitality, generosity, and hard work. They are very strict when it comes to religion. The are very famous for their roles in the Jihads of Kashmir in which the out come was "Azad Kashmir" and the Jihad in Afghanistan against with the Soviet in which the out come was the destruction of Communism and the liberation of many central Asians states. Also it made the US the only superpower in the world.
All these things have been well documented in English and Hindi films, though, not a single one from Pakistan. Except in some cases when they are propagated as funny accent chokidaars, they have appeared on Pakistani TV and Comedy Shows.
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*Originally posted by funguy: *
Pathans -
*Majority lives in North West Frontier Province (NWFP) of Pakistan.
*Speak Pashto
*Famous personalities include Khush Haal Khan Khattak (poet, writer), Khan Ghaffar Khan a.k.a Bacha Khan (politician), Jahangir Khan & Janesher Khan (Squash Champs), Imran Khan (although he was born and raised in Lahore, he claims to be a pathan from the Niazi tribe in Malakand division), Mohamad Qavi Khan (TV Actor), Firdaus Jamal ( another tv actor), Field Marshal Ayub Khan (from Abbottabad), and many more that I don't remember of the top of my head.
*They pride themselves to be the most religious ethnicity in Pakistan. Known for their love with ammunition. There is a city called DURRA where you will find replicas of any hand, short or long gun there is out in the market.
*Most drug warlords originate from NWFP due to it's close proximity with Afghanistan. The whole region is very fertile for the cultivation of POST, a main ingredient for heroine, hasheesh and charras.
*Known for their hot temper and hard headedness.
Please don't be offended as most of my views are based on personal experiences... so no room for arguments... I know some sound too stereotypical.
OK, more to follow soon on Punjabis... I am not too familiar with sindhis or balochis.
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*Originally posted by Pakhtuntura: *
Lets not forget the dude who build the bomb for Pakistan, heck the guy who build it for India is also a Khan.
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Since when did having last name Khan make you a Pashtun? If that were the case, 50% of Pakistanis would be Pashtun! The origin of the name Khan is not even from Pashtuns. It was Genghiz Khan remember.
Abdul Qadir Khan is a mohajir.
Well I didn't run a DNA test on the guy. I read it some where on Dawn that he was a "Pathan" or from a family of "Pathans". Though now taking in consideration the reliability of Pakistani news sources, I won't doubt it if he is not.
The name Khan did come from Mongols, but so does it comes from the Tribes of Jewdia. Many Jews have the last name QAN or K.A.H.N, and for years the Pashtuns have claimed a link between them and the Semitics. Other names in Jewdia were like Khyber etc. Though, the name Khan impacted that region mainly because of people like Khushal Khan Khattak and the Moguls Emperors.
Also, 50% of Pakistanis have Pashtun in them. That is if you take in consideration the number of intermarriages and the geography of the area. Since when did the nation of Hindustan gave birth to fair complexion? Heck, even the Brahmins considered to be the most fairest of all Indians were Aryans who came through the Khyber Pass and gave birth to Rig Veda. In the recent Hindi film Asoka, Shukhra Khan had to use Black makeup just so he could look like someone of that region.
Btw, show me one Khan that would refute their ethnic relations to the so-called "Pathans". Heck they'll go back as 5000 years to make the damn connection.
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*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Since when did having last name Khan make you a Pashtun? If that were the case, 50% of Pakistanis would be Pashtun! The origin of the name Khan is not even from Pashtuns. It was Genghiz Khan remember.
Abdul Qadir Khan is a mohajir.
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Very knowledgeable insights on the topic :k:
“Well I didn’t run a DNA test on the guy. I read it some where on Dawn that he was a “Pathan” or from a family of “Pathans”. Though now taking in consideration the reliability of Pakistani news sources, I won’t doubt it if he is not.”
He doesn’t LOOK like a “Pathan,” although who really knows what is true.
“The name Khan did come from Mongols, but so does it comes from the Tribes of Jewdia. Many Jews have the last name QAN or K.A.H.N, and for years the Pashtuns have claimed a link between them and the Semitics. Other names in Jewdia were like Khyber etc. Though, the name Khan impacted that region mainly because of people like Khushal Khan Khattak and the Moguls Emperors.”
Wow, that is quite an amazing link. Although I personally don’t hold anything against all Semitics, I’m sure many Pakhtuns would be very much surprised at the connections.
“Also, 50% of Pakistanis have Pashtun in them. That is if you take in consideration the number of intermarriages and the geography of the area. Since when did the nation of Hindustan gave birth to fair complexion? Heck, even the Brahmins considered to be the most fairest of all Indians were Aryans who came through the Khyber Pass and gave birth to Rig Veda. In the recent Hindi film Asoka, Shukhra Khan had to use Black makeup just so he could look like someone of that region.”
I am not going to conest the 50% figure, it may be true. I do disagree with your “fair complexion” argument. Kashmiris, many N.Punjabis are fair as Euros. Brahmins are aryans meaning their background is from the E. Europe, and just the fact that they crossed over Khyber pass does not make them Pashtun. On a personal note, I can tell you that Rajputs are descendents of Scythians that were Central Asian tribes centered around the Caucuses. Again, the Rajput tribe has has many intermarriages and many mixed Rajputs don’t look different from the people of South Asia. The “purer” Rajputs don’t look different from their ancestors.
“Btw, show me one Khan that would refute their ethnic relations to the so-called “Pathans”. Heck they’ll go back as 5000 years to make the damn connection.”
Yes, indeed I have seen this tendency amongst the “Khans” and many so-called Pathans. I find it sad that people lie or deny their heritage and just try to pass off as Pakhtuns when it is obvious that their features and backgrounds don’t add up. Also, I see more Pashtuns with last names of their tribes like Orakzai, Afridi, Yousafzai etc., than with Khan.
Dear Pakhtuntura, skin colour is not the only mark of a Pashtun. I have seen Pashtuns that are darker than many Punjabis or Sindhis. And Punjabis, Sindhis who are lighter than many Pashtuns. What does that prove?
I personally am light skinned, but I know for a fact that I have no Pashtun blood. My cousin's husband is darker than me, but he is Pashtun. Again, it means nothing.
Imdad Ali, that is quite true. I am punjabi and fair-skinned but my brother-in-law's brother (pathan) is like 2 shades darker. My ex-fiancee was a shade darker than me actually. In addition, I know plenty of pathans that portray a wide color range. So yeah, I don't think Pukhtuntura, that skin color/complexion is any real indication of ethnicity. What you need to consider is the geneology of the particular ethnic group in question.
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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Funguy
yara if you only knew everything behind Imdad's response then I'm sure you would see what I mean. You do have a point, let me say a few words about Punjabis:
Generous, Open Minded, Friendly, Excellent people to be around. Great food, lassi. Generally liberal in outlook and laid back in lifestyle, diverse in professions from being agriculturalists to scientists. Great music, with beats loved by people worldwide. Helpful to everyone in need.. To be continued
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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Imdad hates Punjabi people & Language.
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Originally posted by RajputFury: *
**yara if you only knew everything behind Imdad's response then I'm sure you would see what I mean. *
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If you trace your roots from India then I’m afraid you are mistaking a lot of things in the ethno-geography of that area.
Wow, that is quite an amazing link. Although I personally don't hold anything against all Semitics, I'm sure many Pakhtuns would be very much surprised at the connections.
Pakhtuns come from many different backgrounds, keeping in mind that the land Afghan has been a bottleneck for almost every civilization or empire passing through that region, a lot of intermingling has occurred. So in conclusion, some Pakhtuns might trace their origins to Jewdia if their ancestors where Jewish, and some Pakhtuns might not. Some Pakhtuns might trace their roots to Persian and Arabic ancestry for example the “Sayed” and “Shah” Khel (tribe). So they are not limited to one ethno group. The Nuristanis in Afghanistan would trace their roots to Sikander-e-Azam (Alexander the Great) because of their looks and customs.
Kashmiris, many N.Punjabis are fair as Euros. Brahmins are aryans meaning their background is from the E. Europe, and just the fact that they crossed over Khyber pass does not make them Pashtun. On a personal note, I can tell you that Rajputs are descendents of Scythians that were Central Asian tribes centered around the Caucuses. Again, the Rajput tribe has has many intermarriages and many mixed Rajputs don't look different from the people of South Asia. The "purer" Rajputs don't look different from their ancestors.
Again, if you look at the culture of Kashmiris and their geography they are in much way closer/related to Afghan then Indian. Also, over so many years, from the very first day when Pakistan was created, Quaid-i-Azam (Muhammad Ali Jinnah) him self asked so many Pashtun tribes men to move into the areas surrounding Kashmir. Many Kashmiris themselves will tell you that they are of Pashtun or Afghan origin. When Bangladesh became a state of its own, because of fear of losing Kashmiri land, it is estimated that some 20, 000 to 25, 000 tribesmen were asked to go and settle there. This all comes from a documentary done on Indra Gandhi and Gandhi.
Now many might not know, but Pashtuns are Aryan themselves, proof of their Aryan hood can be seen in their 5000 year old tribal code of honor called “Pashtunwali”. Actually the tribal code is the old Aryan code of honor, which one may find in force in the early stages of all Indo-European peoples. Take the old Scandinavian sagas and the change of geographical and personal names and you have an epic tribal history of the Pakhtuns (Pashtuns). Particularly in the tappas (a form of Pashto Poetry) – which are mostly composed of women – we find descriptions of ideal manhood, and the virtues – honor, bravery, justice – which the young girl would look for in her beloved, are the old Aryan virtues.
The language (Pashto/Pakhto) itself is, however, decidedly Aryan of the Eastern Iranian group and – allowing for the sound of changes according to accepted phonetic laws – a direct descendant of the language of Avesta (not later than 600 B.C) It has, however, important features in common with the Indo-Aryan group as well, most notably the retroflex sounds d, t, r and nr. The passive construction of transitive verbs in the past and perfect tense appears – on the other hand – to have been common to both the Iranian and Indo-Aryan at an early stage of their development.
In view of the accepted historical fact, that the Aryan tribes migrating east in the early half of the second millennium B.C. made a stopover for perhaps several generations in the area now inhabited by the Pakhtuns and composed their religious hymns now embodied in the Rigveda before they eventually invaded India (about 1500 B.C), one would think that a nucleus of the Pakhtun stayed over and have been here ever since, and once would then naturally look for Rigvedic words in Pakhto vocabulary. There are such ancient words found in the Rigveda but not in the later classical Sanskrit. One example is parosa (‘last year’) which is used unchanged in Pakhto today.
When the Pakhtun accepted the iconoclastic faith (Islam) he apparently happily forgot that he ever was Jewish or Hindu and before that Buddhist and before that fire-worshipper and follower of Zarathustra. In view of the fact that the greatest revival in the history of Buddhism took place here too, resulting in the birth of the Mahayana faith in which the Buddha is worshipped as a god and his image appearing in carved stone by the tens of thousands all over the area in the now famous Gandhara school of art (Hellenistic form and Buddhistic contect), one certainly wonders, that apparently not trace is left in the living culture of Pakhtuns today or in the language. There existed for many years a political division among the tribes called Gar and Samil, in which some will find a corruption of Gabr and Sraman (fire-worshipper and Buddhist). It is disappearing now, but perhaps one is allowed in these appellations to hear a faint echo of a clash between the only two >>prophets<< ever emerging among the Aryan peoples, Zarathustra and Gautama Buddha?
Now, one might be surprised that the ancient Hindus Gods were all made out of black stones. Evidence of this can be found in countries like Cambodia, and Vietnam even today if you fallowed the past religions and their influences. In some parts of India, even now today, the blacker you are, the prettier you are considered. Knowing the fact that once India was a part of Africa, there is no need to refute. The possibility of all non-Pashtun Pakistani who are light skinned happens to be of Afghan origin is greater then one might actually think. At least 3 Afghan kings Abdali, Shir Sa Suri, and Khushal Khan have ruled that area so many times that down playing the role of ethno Afghans in those areas is pathetic.
It is said that when the Afghan armies faced the last people standing in their face (the Rajputs), the Rajputs ordered their women to burn themselves alive so they would not be taken. That one moment started the trend in Hindu culture of Sati (wife burning).
Quite a lot to digest Pakhtuntura. I'll answer in order.
*If you trace your roots from India then I’m afraid you are mistaking a lot of things in the ethno-geography of that area. *
I personally do not. I am 75% Rajput as in 3 of 4 Grandparents are Rajputs, the 4 was british. According to verified sources, my family has been the Attock area for atleast 500 years.
*Pakhtuns come from many different backgrounds, keeping in mind that the land Afghan has been a bottleneck for almost every civilization or empire passing through that region, a lot of intermingling has occurred. So in conclusion, some Pakhtuns might trace their origins to Jewdia if their ancestors where Jewish, and some Pakhtuns might not. Some Pakhtuns might trace their roots to Persian and Arabic ancestry for example the “Sayed” and “Shah” Khel (tribe). So they are not limited to one ethno group. The Nuristanis in Afghanistan would trace their roots to Sikander-e-Azam (Alexander the Great) because of their looks and customs. *
Makes a lot of sense. One question though, is the difference that much pronounced between the tribes? I mean are the Shah Khels different in respect to say, Popalzais? In my readings, the origins of Pashtuns were always in doubt, so perhaps your thesis can fill the void.
*Again, if you look at the culture of Kashmiris and their geography they are in much way closer/related to Afghan then Indian. Also, over so many years, from the very first day when Pakistan was created, Quaid-i-Azam (Muhammad Ali Jinnah) him self asked so many Pashtun tribes men to move into the areas surrounding Kashmir. Many Kashmiris themselves will tell you that they are of Pashtun or Afghan origin. When Bangladesh became a state of its own, because of fear of losing Kashmiri land, it is estimated that some 20, 000 to 25, 000 tribesmen were asked to go and settle there. This all comes from a documentary done on Indra Gandhi and Gandhi. *
First of all, Azad Kashmiris are directly related to North Punjabis. People in Northern areas are more related to Tibetans such as the Baltis. If your referring to Kashmiris of the Kashmir valley (which I assume you are) your right they are not Indian, nor are they Afghan, true there were Pashtuns who have settled in Kashmir but that is not nearly enough to change the the Kashmiri ethnic orgin, unless your mean in terms of 50% of Pakistanis being Pashtun, then I could agree. Kashmiri is from a dardic group of languages, Kashmiriyat is vastly different from Pakhtunwali.
*Now many might not know, but Pashtuns are Aryan themselves, proof of their Aryan hood can be seen in their 5000 year old tribal code of honor called “Pashtunwali”. Actually the tribal code is the old Aryan code of honor, which one may find in force in the early stages of all Indo-European peoples. Take the old Scandinavian sagas and the change of geographical and personal names and you have an epic tribal history of the Pakhtuns (Pashtuns). Particularly in the tappas (a form of Pashto Poetry) – which are mostly composed of women – we find descriptions of ideal manhood, and the virtues – honor, bravery, justice – which the young girl would look for in her beloved, are the old Aryan virtues. *
Ok so you have significant supports buttressing your claims. So if I understand well, your saying that Pashtuns are Semitic, Greek, Aryan combined? Then I think, Pashtuns have much more in common with Indians & Pakistanis than they think.
*When the Pakhtun accepted the iconoclastic faith (Islam) he apparently happily forgot that he ever was Jewish or Hindu and before that Buddhist and before that fire-worshipper and follower of Zarathustra. In view of the fact that the greatest revival in the history of Buddhism took place here too, resulting in the birth of the Mahayana faith in which the Buddha is worshipped as a god and his image appearing in carved stone by the tens of thousands all over the area in the now famous Gandhara school of art (Hellenistic form and Buddhistic contect), one certainly wonders, that apparently not trace is left in the living culture of Pakhtuns today or in the language. There existed for many years a political division among the tribes called Gar and Samil, in which some will find a corruption of Gabr and Sraman (fire-worshipper and Buddhist). It is disappearing now, but perhaps one is allowed in these appellations to hear a faint echo of a clash between the only two >>prophets<< ever emerging among the Aryan peoples, Zarathustra and Gautama Buddha? *
Intriuging..very much intruiging. True, the Gandharan School was very powerful and we have enough evidence of the Buddhist influences, but the Zoarastrian influences? I think that they may be less in Eastern Pakhtunkhwa as the west was more in contact with the Iranians and it is entirely concievable that Zarasthustra's teaching may have taken root there.
It is indeed enlightening to read from you regarding your people pre-Islamic history, as I personally know many Pakhtuns that would deny it altogether. I think it is great to see the past of the Pashtuns is so much linked with Middle East, South Asia and even Central Asia. Similarly the Sycthians, the forefathers of Rajputs were Sauras or Sun worshippers, some were absorbed into the Hindu fold, while many (espicially in present day Pakistan) continued their traditional beliefs or converted to Buddhism.
*Now, one might be surprised that the ancient Hindus Gods were all made out of black stones. Evidence of this can be found in countries like Cambodia, and Vietnam even today if you fallowed the past religions and their influences. In some parts of India, even now today, the blacker you are, the prettier you are considered. Knowing the fact that once India was a part of Africa, there is no need to refute. The possibility of all non-Pashtun Pakistani who are light skinned happens to be of Afghan origin is greater then one might actually think. At least 3 Afghan kings Abdali, Shir Sa Suri, and Khushal Khan have ruled that area so many times that down playing the role of ethno Afghans in those areas is pathetic. *
It is very well documented that the vast majority of Indians consider fairer skin to be "better" perhaps due to the Aryan influences. What have commented upon may be true for Dravidians or South Indians although even that is a very thin argument. No one is denying the role of Afghans in Pre-Pakistani history but let us not forget the Mughals whose Central Asian influences are more pronounced due to their prolonged riule in the entire region. I don't agree with your belief that the only reason Non-Pashtun Pakistanis are fair is because they have Afghan blood, because I can tell you personally that it is not true. Nor can you say Baluchis who are more Kurdish/Assyrian orgin can credit their skin color to Afghans. In Sindh, there are many Jatts who are mediterr. complexioned, as are many Punjabis. Amongst the Urdu speakers, it is not that far fetched to say that their ancestors may have been Arabs or Turanis. Again, I want to balance the perspective.
It is said that when the Afghan armies faced the last people standing in their face (the Rajputs), the Rajputs ordered their women to burn themselves alive so they would not be taken. That one moment started the trend in Hindu culture of Sati (wife burning).
Right...actually it was more like after all the Rajput men were slaughtered the woman chose death rather than to face the slavery of the Afghans. I am not saying this is true for you, but many Pashtuns relish the thought of their forefathers smashing through the "Indians" whther it be the the Mughals, the Marathas, or any smaller groups, but the Rajput confederacy stood, sure it may have lost territory but it struck back in the form of the Sikhs who of largely, Scythian origin were the only "Indians" to push the Afghan confederation to the Khyber. This is not a contest over who beat who but one must consider the origins of Scythian heritage which was shaped along the barbaric horde-like Mongolian patterns which still hold it's abrasiveness to many in South Asia to this day.
Different, anything to add or do you like to steal my words and rearrange them? 
Yes, what I said is true. Any discussion about ethnicity tends to get politicized with Pakistanis, and Imdads earlier responses in the Politics forum indicate his hatred for Punjabis. Lets not even begin to talk about you-- the stalker of Gupistan who drops in to rearrange words.
If we want to discuss ethnicities lets not do it with hatred in our hearts. There are good and bad people everywhere so there is no point in labelling groups of people as such.
Rajput, where do you get the "I hate Punjabis" mantra from? I would love to hear how you came to such a mind boggling conclusion.
I’m w/ Imdad Ali. Where is the punjabi-bashing coming from?..or are we misunderstanding something here?
Pakhtuntura, interesting ethnologic study on the origins of the Northen Pakistani people. Thanks for sharing…however, I’m already familiar with 99% of what you posted concerning the North Pakistani and Afghani races. My question to you is: how does skin color play into all this??? I mean, as I indicated earlier, skin color/complexion has little to do with someone’s ethnicity since it’s a very general concept. There are light skinned Punjabis and dark skinned ones, there are light skinned Pushtun and dark skinned ones, there are light skinned Kashmiris and dark skinned ones, etc. What is the corrolation, if any, between skin color/complexion and ethnicity??? Please enlighten us.
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*Originally posted by moona: *
I'm w/ Imdad Ali. Where is the punjabi-bashing coming from?...or are we misunderstanding something here?
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Moona, please visit Politics section fequently and you'll see what I mean. Imdad uses an implicit approach of saying that every other province is unhappy with Punjab and how Punjabis are to blame for all the problems of Pakistan (including the Military-- which he thinks is 100% Punjabi).
Hey I could care less if he hates Punjabis but my job is exposing the truth.
RF, thank you for clarifying. 
NO ONE says anything nasty about punjabis.
Punjabis rule :k:
Got that, Imdad Ali!!!
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*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
Moona, please visit Politics section fequently and you'll see what I mean. Imdad uses an implicit approach of saying that every other province is unhappy with Punjab and how Punjabis are to blame for all the problems of Pakistan (including the Military-- which he thinks is 100% Punjabi).
Hey I could care less if he hates Punjabis but my job is exposing the truth.
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No, Punjabis run the country through army. That is a real fact, but it doesn't mean I hate Punjabis.