In the aftermath of Bin Laden saga we seemed to have gone overboard in our criticism of all our institutions. I feel we have been unfair and time to stop. Yes the people at the top have been incompetent but we always knew that. While the world was focussed on the fall out of Osama, our top political leadership was busy swearing in new ministers and than our PM in the midst of one of worst crisis departed for France. Yes they should be criticised, so should the COAS and head of ISI. But that is not the point of my thread. what I want to say is that dont tear apart the armed forces as an institution. The core soldiers are not at fault. They are busy fighting and laying down their lives to cleanse our country from the terrorists, of which Osama was one. We have lost over 5000 of these jawans in the last few years. Is that how we repay them? In our hatred of USA many of us are mourning the death of a terrorist who was principally responsible for the death of over 30,000 innocent Pakistanis.
Lets keep our criticism limited to the people who should be held accountable and rise above our political affiliations to condemn whoever failed in this saga, but not tear the whole institution down.
Yes it was a terrible failure of intelligence but so was 9/11 for America, 7/7 for UK and Mumbai for India. It happens but it doesn’t mean we tear the very fabric of these institutions apart. Our army overall is a very well trained army and has done us proud on many occasions and here I am talking about the core soldiers.
Time for soul searching but not tearing our institutions apart. It is not us but our enemies who will benefit if that happens.
Another wise man, Moin Akhtar, said if once in a while we asked ourselves “what** I **have given to Pakistan” instead of what Pakistan has given me, we’d be in a much better position today. It’s funny how this incident has given everyone an excuse to look down on Pakistan and some are even ashamed of being Pakistanis. I have more respect for the jawaans of the Pakistani army than the internet morons who don’t even want to be associated with Pakistan any more.
"what I have given to Pakistan" instead of what Pakistan has given me
wasn't that JFK??
BTW.... i haven't read all the posts/threads which criticised the army...
but if we don't criticize and voice concerns over what teh military leadership did.......
the jawans and soldiers who died........we need to be sure why they lost their lives...what caused that to happen...and identify and hold to account whose decisions/policies led us to the situation where they had to sacrifice their life.....
obviously.....critcizing the whole institution ... using uncivil langauge is totally wrong.
I think people just state extreme views in anger and disappointment without the intention of insult...it's like when we get mad at our kids and give them chittars...but we never stop loving them or caring for them.
@ Nomi: I don't know I heard Moin Akhtar say that in an interview. And like Ehsan uncle said, it's okay to criticise those who really did let us down but no need to go overboard with it.
So you said.
Forget
Please listen
Forget Operation Gebralter
Forget Saqoot e Dhaka
Forget Operation Kargal
Forget War in Afghanistan
Forget handing over many places to USA for their operations
Forget Ajmal Qasab
Forget Raymond Davis
Foget Abbotabad.
I agree intelligence failure can happen to anybody at all different levels. Before Americans get carried away with their accusations they need to realize their own intelligence failures in the last decade. It took them A DECADE to find one man, and here is a country abundantly supplied with technology, and has relentless help from other nations. realistically speaking intelligence failed them and mislead them many times before they got to the source.
[QUOTE]
No, when Pak army is out there defending our country, no criticism would be allowed. It does not matter then if they are doing a good job or a bad job from our standards, they are still out there trying their best.
Army of Pakistan as an institution is not allowed to be criticized.
[/QUOTE]
you just cannot put a blame of some generals on the whole army man. the lieutenants and subedars and jawans that are dying for this country, we will be forever in debt to them.
As I stated earlier - we as a nation are going through a very disturbed , confused and uncertain era of our history - And all we need is what our Quaid Muhammad Ali Jinnah R.A] recommended for our nation ‘’ unity faith discipline ‘’
Please be united as a nation - despite our short coming have faith on our people - and have discipline , so people against our existence wont get a bit of the success in their evil plans …
Has Qauid asked them to be a slave of America, Put your all efforts for property, housing and other trades. Kill your all leaders and people who talk for their rights. We have seen 93000 of them surrendering to India and
did they said that they are planning a change.
We love Pakistan and need them but to guard us not to kill us.
I tell you all with no fear that if they didn’t think for a change.
Meray monh main khak
let me silent.
In the aftermath of Bin Laden saga we seemed to have gone overboard in our criticism of all our institutions. I feel we have been unfair and time to stop. Yes the people at the top have been incompetent but we always knew that. While the world was focussed on the fall out of Osama, our top political leadership was busy swearing in new ministers and than our PM in the midst of one of worst crisis departed for France. Yes they should be criticised, so should the COAS and head of ISI. But that is not the point of my thread. what I want to say is that dont tear apart the armed forces as an institution. The core soldiers are not at fault. They are busy fighting and laying down their lives to cleanse our country from the terrorists, of which Osama was one. We have lost over 5000 of these jawans in the last few years. Is that how we repay them? In our hatred of USA many of us are mourning the death of a terrorist who was principally responsible for the death of over 30,000 innocent Pakistanis.
Lets keep our criticism limited to the people who should be held accountable and rise above our political affiliations to condemn whoever failed in this saga, but not tear the whole institution down.
Yes it was a terrible failure of intelligence but so was 9/11 for America, 7/7 for UK and Mumbai for India. It happens but it doesn't mean we tear the very fabric of these institutions apart. Our army overall is a very well trained army and has done us proud on many occasions and here I am talking about the core soldiers.
Time for soul searching but not tearing our institutions apart. It is not us but our enemies who will benefit if that happens.
I agree with you. But these few top generals have always snatched the right of people of Pakistan to live in peace and be prospered. Their actions have made the whole country as country of terrorists. Not only Pakistani who are living in Pakistan, but it had also badly affected the honest and hard working people living abroad who earn their livelihood doing labour jobs to professional work. In past I was happy to introduce myself as person born in Pakistan. They way people look at Pakistanis in western world now, is quite scary and there is atomosphere of mistrust and hatred. Had these generals or top military officials commit those kinds of blunders which directly affect the whole nation, their only destination would have been gallows for destroying the whole country.
Same analogy can be applied to common people of Pakistan. Why they are suffereing for the misdeeds and actions of few? Are they not human being?
In the aftermath of Bin Laden saga we seemed to have gone overboard in our criticism of all our institutions. I feel we have been unfair and time to stop. Yes the people at the top have been incompetent but we always knew that. While the world was focussed on the fall out of Osama, our top political leadership was busy swearing in new ministers and than our PM in the midst of one of worst crisis departed for France. Yes they should be criticised, so should the COAS and head of ISI. But that is not the point of my thread. what I want to say is that dont tear apart the armed forces as an institution. The core soldiers are not at fault. They are busy fighting and laying down their lives to cleanse our country from the terrorists, of which Osama was one. We have lost over 5000 of these jawans in the last few years. Is that how we repay them? In our hatred of USA many of us are mourning the death of a terrorist who was principally responsible for the death of over 30,000 innocent Pakistanis.
Lets keep our criticism limited to the people who should be held accountable and rise above our political affiliations to condemn whoever failed in this saga, but not tear the whole institution down.
Yes it was a terrible failure of intelligence but so was 9/11 for America, 7/7 for UK and Mumbai for India. It happens but it doesn't mean we tear the very fabric of these institutions apart. Our army overall is a very well trained army and has done us proud on many occasions and here I am talking about the core soldiers.
Time for soul searching but not tearing our institutions apart. It is not us but our enemies who will benefit if that happens.
As much as I like to agree with you I would like to say when there is a failure by 'top team' of an institution then its whole institution that gets criticism just like actions of a PM are supposed to be govt representation. I understand that majority of our soldiers are real fighters, they are laying their lives for sake of Pakistan and its people. Any criticism of army is mostly directed at the top team of the army, all the failures listed by Anwar Pasha are also because of failure at the top. We do need to continue criticism of the top team for their failures or for keeping nation in dark at various times.
Thank You so much Ehsan, for this thread!!! we have had enough of baseless allegations!! one shouldnt forget the sacrfices our army has given through out these years! :) almost 5000 soldiers have given their lives away for a peaceful Pakistan. we are proud of them!! and we dont hold them responsible for all this!
Ehsan Bhai we are all so depress with this OBL come out and THIS time whatever whoever MUST come in front and TALK to the nation, The nation who always highly neglected by our rulers, there was so many dramas happened in previous from Fall of Dhaka to till this case but nation always pushed back in iron curtains. inka yehi hal raha tou phir Pakistan ka bedga gharq. THEY need to be tell now the real story!!
EB, Pakistan is not banana republic, at least not anymore. Neither military people are holy cows anymore, which are immune to criticism no matter what they do.
This is the time we can turn the tables and put pressure through media & elected members to relieve the clout of military establishment on every aspect of Pakistan. Someone have to go, i will suggest JCOS, COAS, Air Chief, All Core commanders & Head of ISI/MI. All of these losers must be discharged from army and the firing should not be honorable. I can live with drone attacks but i am sorry i can't take the hit in a area which is equivalent to West Point of USA.
Thank you all for your responses. I am not saying we should not hold these top guys responsible for their failures. Indeed they should be held accountable. But lets not tear the institution down, it is a fine institution and one which we should be proud of. As I said before we damage this institution we damage our country. to make this institution strong we need a strong civilian government, one which puts the interests of the country above the party. When we get that we will be able to fire these incompetent people heading these institution.
I am proud of my army as a whole and salute them for defending our country both against internal and external threats. Frienze, agree with you.
EB we are not tearing apart army as an institutional, but the army's leadership. We are, as we all should be, proud of our soldiers for the scarifies they have mad for our country, and no one can doubt that. What we are talking about inept and corrupt leadership, were generals are too busy running businesses, and ISI is too busy protecting and exporting jihadis...than we have the right to hold them accountable for their failures.
In the aftermath of Bin Laden saga we seemed to have gone overboard in our criticism of all our institutions. I feel we have been unfair and time to stop. Yes the people at the top have been incompetent but we always knew that. While the world was focussed on the fall out of Osama, our top political leadership was busy swearing in new ministers and than our PM in the midst of one of worst crisis departed for France. Yes they should be criticised, so should the COAS and head of ISI. But that is not the point of my thread. what I want to say is that dont tear apart the armed forces as an institution. The core soldiers are not at fault. They are busy fighting and laying down their lives to cleanse our country from the terrorists, of which Osama was one. We have lost over 5000 of these jawans in the last few years. Is that how we repay them? In our hatred of USA many of us are mourning the death of a terrorist who was principally responsible for the death of over 30,000 innocent Pakistanis.
Lets keep our criticism limited to the people who should be held accountable and rise above our political affiliations to condemn whoever failed in this saga, but not tear the whole institution down.
Yes it was a terrible failure of intelligence but so was 9/11 for America, 7/7 for UK and Mumbai for India. It happens but it doesn't mean we tear the very fabric of these institutions apart. Our army overall is a very well trained army and has done us proud on many occasions and here I am talking about the core soldiers.
Time for soul searching but not tearing our institutions apart. It is not us but our enemies who will benefit if that happens.
The title of the thread is really great. However I do not agree with you that we should treat the army establishment as sacred cows who can not be criticized. I do not doubt their patriotism, but their vision. The mentality of the army leadership in past years has been a big threat to the prosperity of common man in Pakistan. Today we are sitting on a time bomb hoping that there is no terrorism anywhere in the world with links coming from Pakistan. People like Hafiz Saeed who were and probably are still patronized by army establishment, continue to play havoc with our country perception by transmitting the images we are watching in mainstream global print media. The past and present global agendas of our army leadership are a big threat to the security and prosperity of common people of our country. People are condemning these global ambitions, lies, double games by the army leadership. Really people of Pakistan had enough of these global jihadi games pursued by these guys.
