Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
phir se asking..wht abt ppl whose one parent(mother) is a Pakistani and one parent (father) an Indian ?
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
have loyalties to kashmir i guess
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
but wht if they r not kashmiris 
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
even then!!!
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
The Bold part in above quoted statement is the real bone of contention - How come you acclaim yourself as a Muhajir , just on the basis of the fact that you Grands moved from what is currently an Indian territory, to Pakistan post-partition. ** Let's extrapolate this concept to children of Pakistani emigrants to other countries (UK, US, Canada, AUS, etc.) - why should they or should they not acclaim themselves as Pakistani if they were born outside of Pakistan?**
We all bloody need to own this country - My grand parents including my father , who was born in India - migrated to Pakistan - They were immigrants or Muhajirs not me . neither me mah who was born in pakistan .
Still half my naniyal lives in India - and half in pakistan - but does it make those living in India to love Pakistan - na it doesn't !
I have spoken to many of them and they are more Indian than any Ram Gopal or Sukivernder singh you know .
So why cant we just be Pakistani - instead of labelling ourselves as Muhajirs .
Ah, but that's the rub, my being Canadian, I was taught as part of the political/social policy of the nation, that I can own and celebrate my ethnic cultural heritage and still be Canadian. I can proudly be Pakistani-Canadian. So, if Canada allows me to hyphenate my identity, my inclination is to hyphenate my Pakistani identity as well.
As I said in an earlier post, I was neither born nor raised in Pakistan. My connection to India is not as tenuous as for others - my dada and dadi lived and died in India and it was only my father and two of his sisters who moved to Pakistan.
I do consider myself to be Pakistani-Canadian - based on the circumstances of my heritage, it's the natural connection I make. But, if I express any loyalty or pride (and like I've said throughout - these are two different emotions) in India, it automatically garners me the tag of a traitor to Pakistan. That's what I find difficult to reconcile myself to.
Anyhow, I hope my daughters grow up to love whichever country from what their experiences are and not from what they hear from media and/or people, just like I do.
Precisely my point! I can love both countries without being disloyal to either. Yet, the response I get from some is that I must choose Pakistan and have no remaining loyalty or affection (and I use both words since there is a difference in the sentiment) for India.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
India bashing doesn't really mean you hate 'Indians'. It is political, on foreign or internal policy level.
One can love a country, city, many countries, many cities, many people. Why not?
At the same time, one can be critical of the governments of those countries and cities when they do things that you do not approve. This does not mean you are not loyal, friendly to the people of those cities or countries.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Ah, but that's the rub, my being Canadian, I was taught as part of the political/social policy of the nation, that I can own and celebrate my ethnic cultural heritage and still be Canadian. I can proudly be Pakistani-Canadian. So, if Canada allows me to hyphenate my identity, my inclination is to hyphenate my Pakistani identity as well.
As I said in an earlier post, I was neither born nor raised in Pakistan. My connection to India is not as tenuous as for others - my dada and dadi lived and died in India and it was only my father and two of his sisters who moved to Pakistan.
I do consider myself to be Pakistani-Canadian - based on the circumstances of my heritage, it's the natural connection I make. But, if I express any loyalty or pride (and like I've said throughout - these are two different emotions) in India, it automatically garners me the tag of a traitor to Pakistan. That's what I find difficult to reconcile myself to.
Precisely my point! I can love both countries without being disloyal to either. Yet, the response I get from some is that I must choose Pakistan and have no remaining loyalty or affection (and I use both words since there is a difference in the sentiment) for India.
We can all have multiple identities. And that is ok. As you said, as hyphenated Americans or Canadians, we pick and choose from the culture of our parents/grandparents. Irish Americans can celebrate St. Patrick’s day; Canadians of Italian descent may be partial to Italian food; we may prefer wearing shalwar kameez on special occasions or have Indian style weddings. Similarly, if one has roots in India one can definitely feel affection or pride for that place. I am not sure about loyalty because I don’t think it is wise to feel loyal to a state that does not recognize you as one of its own; people of “Indian origin” in the Indian Diaspora, for example, can get Indian nationality, should they wish, but not if their parents/ grandparents were Pakistani or Bangladeshi citizens.
I think those we call muhajir, living in Pakistan, are loyal just to their country of nationality because they know their parents or grandparents left behind so much—their homes, their relatives, their whole lives behind—to start a new life in Pakistan. However this loyalty doesn’t mean that they renounce their past or their connections to India and it is unfair to expect that they should. After all few in Pakistan identify themselves solely as Pakistanis. You can simultaneously be a proud Pakistani and a proud, say, Punjabi or Pakhtun as well; just because you are a Pakistani you do not--and perhaps cannot-- distance yourself from your heritage, language and traditions that go back generations. Likewise 'muhajirs' are not a monolithic group. And it is not India per se that they hold dear or whose particular traditions they cherish but the particular region of British India they or their ancestors left behind.
Especially for the older generations of muhajir Pakistanis, food, clothing choices and indeed, for many, who their offspring married to were primarily influenced by whether they identified themselves also as, say, “UP walay”, Bihari etc. And that, I think, continues to hold true, albeit of course to a lesser extent, for many Pakistanis of “Indian” descent.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
What is “Indian culture” ? What is “Pakistani culture” ? Both are artificial constructs.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Not to dilute the serious nature of the post, but using my nieces as an example, they are dual citizens of the US and Canada - and cute little things they are, they root for American teams for many sports, but Canada when it comes to hockey. Despite US-Canadian rivalries, they were taught that they can be loyal to both countries.
I'm not ignorant about either the history or the current political climate in India and Pakistan. But, I find the absolute statements of condemnation of either country to smack of intolerance.
@ TLK: Given that Nikki is from India and you're from Pakistan, what message do you share with your daughters about their "loyalties"?
Wow. I am being pimped out on GS by X2. I might as well throw in the towel now.
Sehrysh the answer to your first point is in my second paragraph. Even though we do not choose it to be so, many who live abroad are defined by their ethnicity and their origins. You are Canadian or American or something right? But to most people in those areas you are also Pakistani. It is also the culture you are brought up in. It is what defines you to an extent. It may not be your primary foundation for identity but it is part of it. However your children and their children will have less interactions with that culture and will essentially lose all their "roots". That is very natural amongst all immigrant Diasporas. Looks at the Irish and the Italians in the US. 50 years ago it was a different culture. Now it is a very different culture. Its simple social evolution and that won't change. Each progressive generation that lives abroad will be less and less "desi".
Why war? Because it is the single most disastrous invention man has ever created. It is a direct assault on a people, its way of life and perceived superiority. Yes I am doing a Bush but it is true. That is why the Japanese were put in detention centers in the US. That is why sauerkraut was renamed liberty cabbage. It is the only true test of loyalty a country and a people have.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
What is "Indian culture" ? What is "Pakistani culture" ? Both are artificial constructs.
All cultures are artificial constructs.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Unless you are a part of an army for either country - I didn't know you had to be "loyal" to one side.
Denying our linkage to each other is ridiculous as our ancestors were infact Indian a mere 63 years ago. Pakistani culture 50% is the same as Indian culture. We differ a lot too. But so do cultures within pakistan.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Unless you are a part of an army for either country - I didn't know you had to be "loyal" to one side.
Denying our linkage to each other is ridiculous as our ancestors were infact Indian a mere 63 years ago. Pakistani culture 50% is the same as Indian culture. We differ a lot too. But so do cultures within pakistan.
very sensible answer and exactly :)
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Unless you are a part of an army for either country - I didn't know you had to be "loyal" to one side.
Denying our linkage to each other is ridiculous as our ancestors were infact Indian a mere 63 years ago. Pakistani culture 50% is the same as Indian culture. We differ a lot too. But so do cultures within pakistan.
The beauty of living in a non-conflict zone. Ask an Afghan what he or she would think of that? Most would definitely disagree. Patriotism is loyalty. And if you have questions on those regard your loyalties are not with the nation.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Unless you are a part of an army for either country - I didn't know you had to be "loyal" to one side.
Denying our linkage to each other is ridiculous as our ancestors were infact Indian a mere 63 years ago. Pakistani culture 50% is the same as Indian culture. We differ a lot too. But so do cultures within pakistan.
Agree..
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Unless you are a part of an army for either country - I didn't know you had to be "loyal" to one side.
Denying our linkage to each other is ridiculous as our ancestors were infact Indian a mere 63 years ago. Pakistani culture 50% is the same as Indian culture. We differ a lot too. But so do cultures within pakistan.
The reason ppl here supporting mix/cosy culture, because unlike Israel we have failed to establish our self in almost every thing.
If things had gone right and we had made the progress we were set to made, we would have our own cultural identity too beyond pop-bands.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Its like our week asses could not write our own rules, now we take dictation. :no:
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
many pakistanis in Pakistan only have contempt for america, the comments they write are full of anger towards america that, according to them, has been using pakistani leaders as puppets for as long as they can remember, and are responsible for pakistan being in the state that it's in
so for Pakistani Americans, between pakistan and america, where do the loyalties lie?
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
It's time to evalute what having blind loyalities to a nations is costing us.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
Why war? Because it is the single most disastrous invention man has ever created. It is a direct assault on a people, its way of life and perceived superiority. Yes I am doing a Bush but it is true. That is why the Japanese were put in detention centers in the US. That is why sauerkraut was renamed liberty cabbage. It is the only true test of loyalty a country and a people have.
War is absolutely the most divisive invention that man has created. But, my argument is why assign loyalties in ANTICIPATION of war?
No, I don't expect Indians and Pakistanis to be joining hands and singing Kumbaya around a campfire, but what I do hope and pray for is mutual tolerance and respect of one another.
Re: Dual identity - Pakistani and Indian
The beauty of living in a non-conflict zone. Ask an Afghan what he or she would think of that? Most would definitely disagree. Patriotism is loyalty. And if you have questions on those regard your loyalties are not with the nation.
I disagree with you with CM. Patriotism is doing what is best for the nation. Loyalty is blindly standing by a nations ways, leadership and society.