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*Originally posted by Kaleem: *
There is one simple point that you guys(changez, Madhanee) keep onmissing. There is no where in Islam it is allowed to mourn like the shias do. Its a biddat. It has nothing to do with Islam. Question is Why cannot you get married in those ten days? ...
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There is something called "harmony", "tolerance", "understanding". If you do consider Shias as Muslims then you should not offend them at least intentionally. Being a "leader" you are supposed to be promoting "understanding" and "harmony".
If a Shia leader decides to hold the wedding on 10th then would definitely be a show of what Dr Israr wanted to, but being on the other side you can't do that. No matter how much you try to convince them, it has been there for over 1300 years now, do you think they can discard that?
all the keechaRR on a person by this without others knowing his intention..
well done Faisal:flower1:
Why not be sad on Ramadan 17th for the shahadat of many other sahaba in Bad’r… [Greif of “Shahadat”!!! .. kiss baat kee greif bhai…?? Shahadat par greif?]
and then the days of greif will go on if we take it that way
so we should celebrate that a six month old baby got an arrow instead of water..we should also celebrate that Imam Ali (as) daughter was without chadar through the bazaar of shaam..afsos shahadat per nahi hai afsos hai iss zulm per
Well, there is nothing wrong with this debate. Dr. Israr is a public figure. I am sure he can handle such posts, if he were to stumble on this discussion.
To a certain extent I can see the point by Kaleem and others. They genuinely believe that such "prolonged" mourning by the shias is against Islam, so there is nothing wrong with having a wedding on Muharram 10. However, the ground-reality remains that shias are a significant minority in Pakistan, who already feel (felt) under attack based on their religious beliefs; and therefore, for a prominent religious leader to go out of his way and select that one day out of 364 other days in the year to celebrate the marriage of his son, is really really odd.
Its just a matter of common courtesy. We all the talk about religious harmony and unity amongst muslims, or lack thereof; and such incidents don't help us achieve the aim.
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*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
...
all the keechaRR on a person by this without others knowing his intention..
...
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Anwaar, you don't have to see it as "keecharr", take it as "criticism" on the action he took. Regarding intention, if you have a better understanding then please do share that instead of sarcasm. People here are mainly criticising his that particular action and not all of his actions or degrading his "personality".
prolonged grief is not islamic..who is to decide that? we have different hadith books..u follow ur scholers..we follow ours…to us karbala is not merely a story..we feel very close to Prophet (pbuh) and His family..some sunni mourn till 10th mohurram..but someone asked Imam Zainul Abideen (as) once where he felt the most pain..He said three times Shaam Shaam Shaam..that was a place where his mother, aunt, sisters were bayrida walking through the crowd…imagine if our family had to go through that..and these were no ordinary people..these were Prophets children..i cant tell u to feel the pain we feel when we hear about it so please dont tell whether its islamic or not since u can’t prove it from Quran and we dont believe in ur hadith books
Sheraz bhai: Did Imam Zain-ul-Abideen:razi: performed maatam all his life on that incident?
and yes, we have different books for the references.. And I think we will never be able to convince eachother in that way… It’s better to respect and understand each other
so tell me..would it make a difference to you if i say He did?
anyways Imam (as) cried all His life..everytime he would look at the water to do wuzu he would cry..it reminded him that his 6 month old baby was without water for 3 days..his father was without water for i dont know how many days in that desert…its suppose to be bad to cry too right?
ek shair yaad aa gaya:
Zikr jab Zainub-e-muztar ka bayaan hota hai
khoon Sajjad ki aakho say rawaan hota hai
and you do know that Imam Zainul Abdideen is the grandson of Imam Ali (as)..i hope you agree that Imam Ali did know a thing or two about islam
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*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Sheraz yaar, the idea is not about how long/how little one should observe mourning period. The act of Dr. Israr Ahmad to deliberately make it a point is as low as one can get. He can wed his son whenever the hell he wants, wherever he wants, but to argue that 10th of Muharram is just another day is an act of gross stupidity. I can tell you that the Jews from Israel that I know, if they have Shia friends, they would show respect to that day. I don’t know with what face, people like Dr. Israr Ahmad can call themselves Muslims. But I am not to judge their belief, but I sure can judge their acts. And you are absolutely right, that their acts do not take the significance of Imam Hussain and the rest from perhaps the defining moment in the history of Islam.
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what can you say..there are ppl like this in this world..islam islam islam..keep preaching islam..yet they dont know the meaning of islam itself..there have been so many shia killings in pakistan because of such scholers..they brainwash the dumb illetrate *******s in pakistan and teach them to kill in the name of islam..so having wedding on 10th mohurram shouldnt be a big deal to them anyway
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*Originally posted by Sheraz CT: *
what can you say..there are ppl like this in this world..islam islam islam..keep preaching islam..yet they dont know the meaning of islam itself..there have been so many shia killings in pakistan because of such scholers.....
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Lets not get too far on this, don't blame Dr Israr for the killings of Shias, I never heard that he approved of any such acts or labelled Shias as kafir at all. Lets keep the focus on whether the act of holding wedding on 10th Muharram was right or not.
I haven't got much time for Sheraz and his one-sided Shia hard-sell either. But as far as I'm concened, no amount of 'scholarly' qualifications can excuse the mean-mindedness, or stupidity of picking one day out of 365 specifically to antagonise one of Pakistan's significant minority communities.
i dont think any harm in marrying 10 moharram............infact it is more mubarak day then the rest....eventhough keeping in mind shia sensitvity it should not have been done.............
any way do shias mourn the wisaal on hadrat muhammad sallaho alihaywasalm the same way as they do for karbala shudah....do shiaz marry on that day or not........?.....i just wonder
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*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
i dont think any harm in marrying 10 moharram............infact it is more mubarak day then the rest....eventhough keeping in mind shia sensitvity it should not have been done.............
any way do shias mourn the wisaal on hadrat muhammad sallaho alihaywasalm the same way as they do for karbala shudah....do shiaz marry on that day or not........?.....i just wonder
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yeah they have majlises... on that day... and mourn... but talkin about shadaat of rasool...and bidat....celebrating eid -e- milad un nabi...for yoear.....is it a bidat or is it an act done by Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. Did he celebrate it every year like that while he was alive????... and one more question...if someone u luv real much..and he dies on the same day... would you celebrate his birthday or mourn for the loss....????
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
Houston ka Don... may be you did not read the first post carefully. I am not talking about the shia belief nor do I wish to read yet another time the whole story of Karbala (we have read it plenty of times in this forum). I am talking about insensitivity shown towards a group of muslims by a learned scholar. Kindly stay focussed on the topic.
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and if you read with open eyes... I havent gone of the topic...you taked about mourning man.......and the day of Ashura... I just pointed out the fact on the day of Ashura in the light of events...that make us cry... you might have a stone heart...but man we luv Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. and his family..... and i gave the idea that how memorial services are held for september 11 and defence day... since this day is a big loss for us muslims and the ladies of the family of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. were arrested adn the rida was taken from their heads...its a grieve for the Islam of what happened with the family of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. and being a scholar of Islam it would be a good idea if he would have held memorial services for that incident rather then celebrating with marriage... no where do i off the topic Mr....
go and read my post carefully before advicing me on reading yours and point out where does your lame usual excuse of going off the topic comes into play....
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*Originally posted by Wise One: *
Mourning with grief is different to roaming the streets with a horse. Dressing up the whole occassion is beyond my understanding and certainly beating oneself is against islamic teaching. Islam urges people to refrain them selves from such actions. What could be greater cause of grieving then Hazrat Muhammed (PBUH) death? Nothing, yet i read through history and cannot find one example where Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Fatima did any of the activities conducted by shias. I am not intending to offend any one's belief i am just saying that i donot think that "matum" and "zuljina" thing is following islamic teachings.But these are totally my opnions
Now coming to the main point of forum i personally think that Israr Ahmed arranged the wedding on the day because islam teaches us not to mourn in such fashion and he might have thought that by doing so he is breaking this fashion. And i again say that these are just my thoughts on the subject, would like it if any one can justify this way of mourning to me. And where does it say that you cannot have wedding on 10th of muharrem, the grief isn't limited to one day if you have love and honour for Ahle bait then the grief is forever in your heart.
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There was a dog in the cave of Ashaab -e- kaif and he is still remembered in Quran for his deed and zuljana from what i heard on tv this muharram after the shadat of Imam Hussain A.S. after he fall from the horse he started doing circles around his body to protect them...thats how wafadar he was.......
Hazrat Ayoub cried so much for his son that his eyes turned white even though he was a very sabir insaan...quran qoutes that about him but never said mourning was something wrong........
One comapnion of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. broke his teeth when he heard Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. teeth broke in the battle of Ohad.... I dont find a hadith where Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. said his activity was bad......
Whats wrong in mourning...
talking about the act of Mr. Israr Ahmed now tell me dude... Its the day when Imam Hussain sacrificed his family in the way of Allah, its the day when the ladies of the house of Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. were arested by Yazeed army and they were taken from the markets of koofa and shaam beh rida...such a tragedic incident in the life of Islam and the best this so called scholar of Islam. can do it held a wedding rather then having sort of memorial service to pay the respect to the tragedic loss, just for his love for Islam and Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. You have a problem with mourning don't mourn but atleast have some sort of memorial service to pay respect in the love of Islam and Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H.
Did Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. ever stopped people from mourning..... talking about bidat celebrating eid -e- milad un nabi... did Prophet Mohammad P.B.U.H. celebrated the way sunni do it now... why not mourn for the big loss of Islam..when sunni believe he died on the same day.
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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
The discussion on Maulana Maududi reminded me of Dr. Israr Ahmad. He is a very well known scholar in Pakistan, as many people here will testify.
One very curious incident about Dr. Israr Ahmad, which I remembered just now is what I am about to share. If this is incorrect, please feel free to correct me.
We all know shias around the world mourn the death of Hazrat Husain (Razi Allah) on 10th of Muharram each year. There are plenty of sunni scholars who say that such prolonged and visual display of grief is against the principles of Islam. Dr. Israr is one of them. In order to drive home his point, he actually arranged the wedding of his son, right on 10th Muharram... which is an unthinkable thing amongst shia muslims.
While I am not a shia, nor do I think that the sort of mourning practised by shias is something which I will ever understand, I do think that we should be careful of their emotions and should not deliberately provoke them or mock them, as this issue is very close to their heart and emotions. The action by Dr. Israr was just that. As a very well-known religious leader in Pakistan, he deliberately set the wedding of his son right on the day when shias are highly emotional with grief. I always found the whole thing kinda hard to explain. Why would someone go out of their way to provoke the emotions of other muslims in their time of mourning?
Do any of you remember the whole thing? Was it Dr. Israr or am I confusing him with someone else?
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