Is dopata a sub-continent cultural dress or it was introduced by Muslims in the sub-continent? I noticed many Indian women wearing dopata but I don’t know if covering the head is part of any Hindu/Sikh religious custom or directive or how it was originated. Anybody knows?
It is not part of old Indian culture. Hindu women don't cover their heads inside the Temples. Ancient Historical status and painting of women don't show them wearing duppatta or even covering their head.
In southern India married and single women don't cover their head only widows do. Infact most women in south and in Rajasthan decoratate their hair with flowers (motiya) which are sold all over the place.
Middle class Indian women wear dupatta as part of dress because it looks good. Linking of duppata with sharam or hayaa is becoming an outdated concept.
Linking of duppata with sharam or hayaa is becoming an outdated concept.**
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Since when?
Since when?
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**
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I am talking about middle class Indian women..my views have nothing to do with women in Pakistan.
I was in Delhi last year…didn’t see Indian women worried about dupatta infact on the streets of Delhi and even in small towns large number of women were wearing western attire . It is very acceptable to wear Kurta Pajama without dupatta.
So Rani, how did duppatta start out, you know? Was there any Islamic influence in keeping the head covered or it was just a cultural dress?
As far as I know, the ethnic attire of Indian women was a nine yard piece of cloth that was wrapped around the body sari style. Blouses ans were introduced later to cover the top part of the body as were the ghaghras. Shalwar kurta and all variations of it were introduced by the conquering armies from the north (afghans or central asians) and because of their Muslim heritage that emphasizes modesty and pardha, the shalwar kurta ensemble included the chador. The original dupatta was of thicker material and long enough to cover the head and wrapped around chador style. The chador later evolved into various forms of dupattas that we see today and are merely symbolic now. However, any shalwar kameze ensemble sans the dupatta looks incompelete and odd to say the least. Indians have made a mess of the shalwar kameeze just as they have messed up the Hindustani language (which is more than 50% Urdu)by their appalling pronunciation of Urdu words. I recently heard an Indian group sing a Qawalli 'zzoom brabar zzoom sarabi" translated "jhoom braber jhoom sharabi"
Maybe Indian women should stick to sarees (I like them they are very elegant) and singing bhajans. Qawwali unke bus ki baat nahin hai aur shalwar kameez pehnne ka unmein saleeqa nahin hai.
So Rani, how did duppatta start out, you know? Was there any Islamic influence in keeping the head covered or it was just a cultural dress?
Roman...I think it is influence of Islam..in places where Islam didn't reach or influence of Islam was less, women don't cover their heads.
Maybe Indian women should stick to sarees (I like them they are very elegant) and singing bhajans. Qawwali unke bus ki baat nahin hai aur shalwar kameez pehnne ka unmein saleeqa nahin hai.
Actually i like Indian salwar Kameej lot better than the Pakistani one...In India we don't know or care what Pakistanis are wearing or think of our dress. I guess Indian Salwar kameej has evolved and looks different than Pakistani salwar Kameej. We like our Punjabi dress and fashion. No other region except Punjabis used to wear salwar (not Shalwar) Kameez...i wonder why u say invading armies brought it...i have not seen people from middle east or Iran and Iraq wearing Punjabi dress. BTW, i like sari(six yards) Lahgaa and choli and all other India fasshions.
There is no doubt that dopatta is a milder version of pardah or burqa concept and is totally borrowed from Muslims. The Salwar Kameez and other attire considered to be Punjabi is certainly modified version of Afghan Shalwar Kameez. In fact it is modified a lot and looks very different from the original one now....partly because Afghans have not changed it since:) while others have.
I have noticed that the way women cary dopatta changes a lot as you travel from West to East in Punjab and Haryana. e.g women used to wear very big ghunD and big dopattas in Amritsar and Gurdaspur area while it gets shorter and shorter by the time you arrive in Patiala or Karnal.
Actually one particular version of dopatta, a big sized white spun cotton with white kaDaiyee on it with tiny holes in it(very similar to the afghani fabric for Chaddar) was/is worn by old women at some special occasions like death etc in Indian Punjab and is still called chaddar. I remember all older women of my family have those chaddars that they don't wear routinely. The younger generation and educated women don't wear these big chaddars and don't do a ghunD either. At one time it was a must. A woman could not walk around in the village with out covering her head and face. People would look at them and point fingers but now things have changed and are changing very fast. I see my university educated sisters and cousins wear their dopattas around their necks during their visits to the village and no one bothers.
GhunD is certainly pardah. I remember when I was a kid women in our house hold would not wear dopatta/chunni over their heads while doing the chores inside the home but if a older male member or some outsider comes home they will immediately stop and cover their head and if the male member is stranger or father-in-law etc they will make a big ghunD over their faces. There was also a tradition that the males will cough(khangoora maarke:)) or say something loud like calling a kid's name to alert the women about his arrival so that they kaDD the ghunD. There is a very funny Punjabi folk boli about it.
ghar vaRhda khabar nai karda,
buDhay de gall paao talliyaN:)
Which one looks good is of course a personal choice. Like many other cultural things attires also change(I won't use the word improve in this case) with time and saying this pearticular version is more authentic than the other sounds odd to me.
I personally think it all depends upon the individual wearing the Salwar(or Shalwar:)) kameez. I have seen some Sikh women wear salwar kameez and dopatta and carry it very graciously while others are lousy. I have seen some Pakistani women wear it and look beautiful but I remember few sad cases also.
Personally I think the salvaar kamiz looks incomplete without the dupatta, and also when Im wearing slavaar kamiz without a one - it feels like something is missing…
I do think dupatta is a part of sharmo haya - coz even when I dont have my dupatta round my neck I feel naked…and I dont like going infront of my abu without it, This does have something to do with Islam and Pardah, maybe the dupatta is an updated version or more versatile and easier to manage than heavy chadars in the world of today where females are working and studying…
Rani - lets face it - Middle class Indian women are only going to wear the dupatta if Karishma, Madhuri or Rani mukherji are wearing it and any chances of them wearing any decent clothes are as high as you converting to Islam…
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Yup I know… NIL!!
And only a Pakistani woman is graceful enough to wear the dopatta beautifully…
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Ciao
[This message has been edited by Mem Sahib (edited March 13, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Antidote:
*As far as I know, the ethnic attire of Indian women was a nine yard piece of cloth that was wrapped around the body sari style. Blouses ans were introduced later to cover the top part of the body as were the ghaghras. Shalwar kurta and all variations of it were introduced by the conquering armies from the north (afghans or central asians) and because of their Muslim heritage that emphasizes modesty and pardha, the shalwar kurta ensemble included the chador. The original dupatta was of thicker material and long enough to cover the head and wrapped around chador style. The chador later evolved into various forms of dupattas that we see today and are merely symbolic now. However, any shalwar kameze ensemble sans the dupatta looks incompelete and odd to say the least. Indians have made a mess of the shalwar kameeze just as they have messed up the Hindustani language (which is more than 50% Urdu)by their appalling pronunciation of Urdu words. I recently heard an Indian group sing a Qawalli 'zzoom brabar zzoom sarabi" translated "jhoom braber jhoom sharabi"
Maybe Indian women should stick to sarees (I like them they are very elegant) and singing bhajans. Qawwali unke bus ki baat nahin hai aur shalwar kameez pehnne ka unmein saleeqa nahin hai. *
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Andicote ,GOOD job,:)))
I think your knowledge is very authentic borne out by what is written by sociologist historians.Many bollywood movies did have Nanda ,Nutan,Saira Bano ,Asha Parekh movies with duppatta gracefully surrounding & framing the face .Guess now with DISCO dress of bra &shorts like bikine Lol He He HE in mOhobattein silly looking like apes ,why bother about Dupatta when u need to show maximium sq cm2 of skin possible !
Sari though is not bad fom islamic point of view ,though it is associated more with hindu women but since they have cut our shalwar Kameez to teddy tight pants like ,we should modify Sari more islamically for our use !
Rani are you allergic to haya ? or is that you purposely want to protest against islam bap re baap itna gussa to mujhe hindu se bhi nahi hai LOL.
I was under the impression that the head covering is part of the traditional dress in many places, such as in Rajastan. Let's face it, you want to protect your face when it's hot and the sun is glaring. And village women use the headdress to protect their heads when hauling water etc.. Dupatta, pallu, chadar, they have many purposes.
Many traditional sari styles permit women to cover their heads, without hiding their faces entirely. And in some places such as Coorg women wear separate headresses, no? I think the point to remember is that every rule has exceptions.
Well said Mem & Chanji
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I think shalwar qameez look incomplete w/out a Duppatta. It’s like wearing a suit without a tie. Infact all all of my Hindu & Sikh friends always complete t/ Shalwar qameez with t/ Duppata & I tell you it looks good.
Wearing Western clothes & thinking it’s better than our National dress whether it’s a Sari or shalwaar qameez is just another sign of t/ British/ Goraa complex we still have. It’s ok, but I wouldn’t consider it a sign of “progress” or so called “eductaion”.
Living In t/ US, thats one thing I do miss, wearing my beautiful everyday cotton shalwaar qameez which I wore quite often during my first semeter in school here, but during my 2nd / 3rd semester I felt subconscious riding my bike in a Desi attire
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Now they are just limited when I go out to dinners. Specially when I wear them to office parties & my Western freinds weddings & parties, they love it & so do I. Makes me feel proud of where I come from even more
Rani are you allergic to haya ? or is that you purposely want to protest against islam bap re baap itna gussa to mujhe hindu se bhi nahi hai LOL.
I don't equate Haya with covering women we show respect by using decent language toleration and acceptance of others...i don't know why u think having a diff opinion than yours amounts to gussa. We were discussing history of dupatta. It just shows how culturally different we are.
Why would i care what Islam preaches, its rules don't apply to us.
I think it is other way around society drives the films, actress do what is acceptable in the society otherwise their films will flop. Image and role of women in last 20 year in Indian films has changed drastically in keeping with the changes in the Indian society.
I do agree with Mem that dupaata is part of punjabi dress and it makes the dress look complete but most of the time the duputta is hanging on the side or is near the neck like an accessory. Loose Kurta and churidar on young people as worn in India also looks quite nice without dupaata.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 13, 2001).]
Rani:
[quote]
It is not part of old Indian culture. Hindu women don't cover their heads inside the Temples. Ancient Historical status and painting of women don't show them wearing duppatta or even covering their head.
[/quote]
Rani, There does appear to be some evidence that covering for women and veil were practised in ancient India before Islam as well. Have a look at this:
=============================================
Chapter 4
Genocide of Women in Hinduism
by
Sita Agarwal
4.4 DRESS & VEILING CODES
Aryan women had to wear a face-veil when going out. Although several civilizations restricted womens' movements, the Brahmanic custom of secluding women went to ridiculous extents. Thus, Namboodiri Brahmin women of Kerala were surrounded by an entire screen carried by female servants.
"Nambudri women carry with them an umbrella whereever they go out, to prevent them from being seen by men. They also should be covered with a cloth from head to foot, and should not wear jewels. A Nayar woman should precede her and watch her movements. All these were rules laid down by Parasu Rama."
Castes and Tribes of Southern India', E.Thurston, 1909, reprinted in `Landmarks in Indian Anthropology' vol. 14(i)-(v), Cosmo Publications, New Delhi, 1987.]
The Nambudiris observe 64 anacharams, or irregular cusotms introduced by Shankaracharya, of which some are
- " Brahman women must not look at any persons other than their husbands "
- " Brahman women must not go out, unless accompanied by women servants. "
- " Brahman women must wear only white clothing "
*Castes and Tribes of Southern India', E.Thurston, 1909, reprinted in `Landmarks in Indian Anthropology' vol. 14(i)-(v), Cosmo Publications, New Delhi, 1987. *]
Xtreme,
No idea where 'Sita' is getting her information from. You are talking about people who made Ajanta and Ellora Temples and wrote Megdoot (Kalidas) it was a very open society by any standards. Old coins recovered from Mauryan era have pictures of women in some what similar dresses as Romans wore. The old statues tell the similar story.
P.S. In Northern India inside Hindu Temples men and women don't cover their head.
[This message has been edited by Rani (edited March 13, 2001).]
Channji:
you wrote:
"Ghund is definitely pardha"
I read somwhere that pardha for women has been made 'haraam' in Sikhism. wouldn't this conflict with what is practised in the punjabi villages where I assume Sikhs prevail?
Rani:
You Wrote:
"Actually i like Indian salwar Kameej lot better than the Pakistani one...In India we don't know or care what Pakistanis are wearing or think of our dress. I guess Indian Salwar kameej has evolved and looks different than Pakistani salwar Kameej. We like our Punjabi dress and fashion. No other region except Punjabis used to wear salwar (not Shalwar) Kameez...i wonder why u say invading armies brought it...i have not seen people from middle east or Iran and Iraq wearing Punjabi dress. BTW, i like sari(six yards) Lahgaa and choli and all other India fasshions."
You can call it whatever you like salwaar kameej, surwar kameej or kacha kameej - the pleasure is entirely yours. However, I do believe that if anything is worth copying, it is worth copying well (whether it is a way of dressing or another language), with good taste and class..something that a dupatta-less shalwaar kameez would lack. You might even think that a kameez without the shalwaar looks cool..but that would be your opinion..you can get as rediculous as you want just to win the point and if that makes you happy be my guest.
BTW churidaar is also a Moghul legacy if you understand what I mean.
I read somwhere that pardha for women has been made ‘haraam’ in Sikhism. wouldn’t this conflict with what is practised in the punjabi villages where I assume Sikhs prevail?<<<
There is no religious injection as for as I know regarding pardah being forbidden but it is not encouraged as Sikhs believe that sharm and hayaa are in the eyes and mind. I know in the eraly part of teh last century when pardah/ghund was practiced by most Sikh women, the more religious families discouraged their women from it as they considered it part of Islamic culture.
ghuND in Punjabi villages has almost disappeared. Many older women who used to do the ghuND in their younger days have finally given it up
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. New generation girls love dopattas with the shalwar kameez and cover their heads at moments like going to the Gurdwara, going to a makaan(mourning) etc. GhunD is certainly out now, covering the head is different than covering the face in a ghunD.
Dopatta is becoming more of a fashion now than a pardah.
I do believe that if anything is worth copying, it is worth copying well (whether it is a way of dressing or another language), with good taste and class..something that a dupatta-less shalwaar kameez would lack. You might even think that a kameez without the shalwaar looks cool..but that would be your opinion..you can get as rediculous as you want just to win the point and if that makes you happy be my guest.
Not trying to win any points just trying to tell u the truth. We may have copied it hundreds of years ago just as u copied it, since then it has evolved and looks very diff than the attire Afgans wear . We Indianized it or Punjabized it. It is still evolving and changing.
*BTW churidaar is also a Moghul legacy if you understand what I mean. *
Where did Moghuls bring it from..? I don't see any other country in the world except Pakistan which was part of India (till 50 years ago) wearing it.
Rani,
here's some more sources backing up what I said earlier:
Vacaspati - Vachaspati tells us that women of good families did not come without a veil in public Vach. ] 1200, p.70 ]. Some women were so much devoted to their husbands that they would not even look at the Sun regarding him as a `parapurusa'.
`Samkhya-Tattva-Kuamudi', Vachaspati Misra, ed. G.N.Jha & H.D.Sharma, Poona, 1934
If the servants were found seeing the faces of queens, they feared punishment. Sis. XII.20.17 ] 1200 p.70 ]. This shows that even the servants could not see the faces of the ladies of the house.
Sisupalavadha', by Magha, ed. Durga Prasad and Siva Datta, Bombay 1917.
Sriharsha - The free mixing of men and women was considered bad in Sriharsha's works Nais.Ch. XV.3 ] 1200, p.70 ].
Numismatic studies have also confirmed that veiling was universal amongst Aryan women :
`Harsha's [1099-1101 ] [Lohara dynasty] coins [depict] a half cross-legged goddess [and ] a veil appears on the head '
-- Coin.39]
*`Art in Gupta and Post-Gupta Coinage' B.N.Mukherjee, Lucknow 1985 Lucknow *
Rani:
Churidaar is yet another variation of the Shalwaar as is the Gharara.