Don't mind me asking!

“O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.”
(Koran 5:51)

“Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers (non-Muslims). Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah’s wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.”
(Koran 5:80)

Also take a look at the following sures:

3:27
4:55
4:91
4:97
5:56
9:41
11:115

Don’t they explicitely forbid moslems to seek helpers and refuge among the “kafirs”? In that case, you and ALL other moslem in the West are breaking the word and the meaning of your “holy” book!

[quote]
In that case, you and ALL other moslem in the West are breaking the word and the meaning of your "holy" book!
[/quote]

You will probably ignore my response, as you seem to ignore most of mine. What is the "meaning" of the Holy Quran? What is its essence? For myself, it is to treat everyone ** all of God's Creations ** with respect and dignity, and to be pious for piety is the standard by which Allah will Judge me. When Prophet Muhammad (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) himself never injured anyone unjustly, never treated them rudely, even going so far as to help the most vulnerable - regardless of their faith - then who am i to do otherwise?

Your ardent focus and energy in attempting to insult those who hold this faith dear to them, really could be directed somewhere a bit more productive. The Holy Quran is not a Book of hate, far from it my friend.

[QUOTE]
Your ardent focus and energy in attempting to insult those who hold this faith dear to them, really could be directed somewhere a bit more productive. The Holy Quran is not a Book of hate, far from it my friend.
[/QUOTE]

nadia,
are these my wordz??

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(Koran 5:51)

"Thou seest many of them turning in friendship to the Unbelievers (non-Muslims). Evil indeed are (the works) which their souls have sent forward before them (with the result), that Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide."
(Koran 5:80)

[QUOTE]
For myself, it is to treat everyone ** all of God's Creations ** with respect and dignity, and to be pious for piety is the standard by which Allah will Judge me.
[/QUOTE]

you are contradicting yor holy book.

"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(Koran 5:51)

OK soul, describe to me what are the characteristics of a friend?

lajavab,
yor allah, dislikes jews and christians, and forbid moslems to seek helpers and refuge among "them". true or false?

ponder again-
"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(Koran 5:51)

its not about personal taste in friends, its about instructions from your allah, not to seek friendship with jews and christians.

are you all not breaking the word of god, by taking refuge in the west?

First of all, thank you for sharing the Majestic words of Allah :swt: with us again and again for us to ponder upon…Indeed, they are true words and a guidance for the believers…For everytime you post them, I read them and absorb them with pleasure…Thanks again…:flower1:

Secondly…Let me hear from you the definition of what a friend is…

Soul,

Whose Words are these?

**

You seem to hate Muslims more, as evidenced by some stereotypical comments in this Forum. Do you get that teaching from your personal beliefs?

Looking forward to your response. :flower1:

C’mon nadia, i am talking about [5.51]

[5.51] “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as “Auliya” (friends, protectors, helpers), They are but Auliya of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Auliya), then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allah guides not those people who are the Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers and unjust).” [from The Noble Koran, King Fahd Complex, K.S.A.].

[5.51] “O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh one of them for friends is (one) of them.” [1954 Mentor books]

[5.51] “O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.” from; [Univ. of Michigan website on the Quran. URL = http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/].

your scholars can twist them, and present yourthe way they think best.
But these are the verses. Take it or leave it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
lajavab,
yor allah, dislikes jews and christians, and forbid moslems to seek helpers and refuge among "them". true or false?

ponder again-
"O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."
(Koran 5:51)

its not about personal taste in friends, its about instructions from your allah, not to seek friendship with jews and christians.

are you all not breaking the word of god, by taking refuge in the west?
[/QUOTE]

Perhaps the meaning of

"Allah does not guide unjust people" could be understood as stated.

Surely there are unjust people amongst Moslems as well?

Perhaps God meant to say that there are just among jews and christians just as there are just people among muslims.

Perhaps the quote might be understood to say Allah does not guide unjust people.

Surely the Jews and Christians were recognized as believers by God, and he does not guide the unjust.

What's the big deal? i am also talking about verses from the same Book, from the exact same source you utilized.

i listed two ayats from the Quran, one enjoining Muslims to be "just" and pious. The second Quranic verse dictates that Muslims should "forgive" Jews, Allah loves those who are kind. It doesn't say that Allah loves those who kill Jews, or Allah loves those Muslims who treat Christians poorly. Allah has ordered us to 'forgive' Jews because Allah loveth those who are kind - that's a quote from the Quran too.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by soul: *
**But these are the verses. Take it or leave it.
[/QUOTE]
*

My advice to yourself as well - the verses above derive from the SAME source you yourself are utilizing. Take it or leave it, your personal choice that you are entitled to. But do not attempt to manipulate meanings from the Quran.

It is one thing to state something that can be backed up unequivocally with tangible evidence. It is quite another to refuse to look at the hadiths and numerous ayats that discuss how Prophet Muhammad, Islam's example of the best human who ever breathed, lived his life. He lived his life embodying the principle of justice to ALL. You are entitled to your own personal opinion, and i will always respect that. Period. IMHO you are NOT entitled to distort meanings of a Divine Book into something that does not even exist.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5243

Part III. Translations from Saudi Schoolbooks[22]

Jihad
From an early age, schoolchildren are taught about Jihad for the Sake of Allah (Al-Jihad fi sabil Allah). In a textbook for 8th grade students, a Hadith is introduced about a companion of the Prophet Muhammad who asked the Prophet: "What labor is most favored by Allah? He [the Prophet] answered: Prayers on time; he then asked: what next? The Prophet answered: love thy parents. He then asked: what else: The Prophet answered: Jihad for the sake of Allah."The textbook interprets the conversation between the Prophet and his companion as follows: the most important activity is Jihad for the sake of Allah and the convocation of Allah’s religion on this earth.[23]

In a textbook titled “Pictures from the Lives of the Companions,” the students are told that following the battle of Badr (the first victory of Muslims over the disbelievers) a new chapter in the Koran had descended on the Prophet which raised, in the eyes of Allah, the status of the mujahideen (Jihad warrior) and their preference over those who sit still. The chapter challenges the mujahid to Jihad, and discourages those who sit still.[24]

** Jews and Christians – Cursed by Allah and Turned into Apes and Pigs
A textbook for 8th grade students explains why Jews and Christians were cursed by Allah and turned into apes and pigs.Quoting Surat Al-Maida, Verse 60, the lesson explains that Jews and Christians have sinned by accepting polytheism and therefore incurred Allah’s wrath.To punish them, Allah has turned them into apes and pigs.[25]

The Whole World Should Convert to Islam and Leave Their False Religions Lest Their Fate Will Be Hell

A schoolbook for 5th grade instructs the students: “The religions which people follow on this earth are many, but the only true religion is the religion of Islam.As for the other religions, they are false as mentioned in the Koran (the Sura of Aal 'Umran Verse 85): ‘And whoever follows a religion that is not Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the Hereafter he will be of the losers.’'The religion of Islam we know from the Koran and the Hadiths about the Prophet. The whole world should convert to Islam and leave its false religions lest their fate will be hell. As mentioned in the Koran (the Sura of Al-Nihal Verse 125): ‘* by Him who holds Muhammad’s soul in his hand that not one Jew or Christian who had heard me and did not believe in the message that I was sent with shall die without being one of those whose fate is hell.’”

The students are then asked to mark “yes” or “no” to the following questions:

*“The Islamic religion is the road to heaven…”

*“Other religions bestow eternal damnation on their adherent…”[26]

“There is a Jew Behind Me, Come and Kill Him!”

A schoolbook for the 9th grade on Hadith introduces a famous narration known by the name, "The Promise of the Stone and the Tree."It tells a story about Abu Hurayra, one of the Prophet’s companions who quoted the Prophet as saying: “The hour [the Day of Judgment] will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.A Jew will [then] hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will call upon the Muslim: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah! there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’ - except for the gharqad tree, for it is one of the trees of the Jews.”[27] The Hadith is accompanied by a number of statements:

“It is Allah’s wisdom that the struggle between Muslims and Jews shall continue until the Day of Judgment.”

“The Hadithbrings forth the glad tidings about the ultimate victory, with Allah’s help, of Muslims over Jews.”

“The Jews and the Christians are the enemies of the believers.They will not be favorably disposed toward Muslims and it is necessary to be cautious [in dealing with them] .” **

The book asks questions for class discussion:

“Who will be victorious in the Day of Judgment?”

“With what types of weapons should Muslims arm themselves against the Jews?”

“Name four factors leading to the victory of Muslims over their enemies.”[28]

now the islamic scholars who drafted saudi arabia text books, obviously knows nothing about nadia’s version of koran!!!*

the "friends" in ur post is a translation of "awliyaa" which does not mean just friends....
it means protectors, someone who shares ur close secrets and all....

now whats wrong if the indian constitutions says "O Indians, dont take Pakistanis and Chinese as AWLIYAA other than yourselves, for they r AWLIYAA of each other"....

WHAT IS WRONG IN THIS????
or do u just pull out some texts form an anti-Islamic site and go on to re-state their words without thinking what Quran actually means....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
the "friends" in ur post is a translation of "awliyaa" which does not mean just friends....
it means protectors, someone who shares ur close secrets and all....

now whats wrong if the indian constitutions says "O Indians, dont take Pakistanis and Chinese as AWLIYAA other than yourselves, for they r AWLIYAA of each other"....

WHAT IS WRONG IN THIS????
or do u just pull out some texts form an anti-Islamic site and go on to re-state their words without thinking what Quran actually means....
[/QUOTE]

Im sure thats what he does arm.

[QUOTE]
now whats wrong if the indian constitutions says "O Indians, dont take Pakistanis and Chinese as AWLIYAA other than yourselves, for they r AWLIYAA of each other"....
[/QUOTE]

can the Almighty God, say this?

[QUOTE]
do u just pull out some texts form an anti-Islamic site and go on to re-state their words without thinking what Quran actually means....
[/QUOTE]

are saudi text books, anti islamic??

okie, so yor god dislikes jews and christians, if you stay in their country, you have to show allegiance to them...which is against your holy text.

first of all how dare u quoted Quraan and insulted it!
second i can quote several lines from other holy books as well which says the same thing. if u have any then go suck pacifier with those other so called intellectuals who made the same intentional move and no need to come here again u idiot.
if u want to learn ,keep an open mind and if u r here just to bash religions go some where else to do that.
p.s plz do tell me one religion in this world which says that other believers of different faith will go to heaven?

Soul, your sole purpose is to quote verses out of context and insult them (God Forbid)

Suroor nailed it when she said that you gotta have an open heart while learning about a relegion and you surely dont have one, doesnt seem like one.

Soul, if all you are going to do is take a few lines here and there from the Holy Quran, **manipulate the text and completely take it out of context, ** then how are you any better than Osama Bin Laden and all of the other terrorists who do the same thing with Islam which is completely “hijack” the religion and the meaning of its text for their own means?

If you are actually reading the Holy Quran, then good for you. However, I suggest you actually open your mind and eyes and pay attention to everything else that is written as Nadia has pointed out. If you just want to twist the words and completely misunderstand what is written, again as Nadia has stated, you can begin with the Old and New Testaments as there is plenty of shocking text (that can easily be misinterpreted) in those Holy Books as well.

:wave:

Soul chanda, why do you find Qur'aan's verses about no friendship with Christians and Jews so offensive?

It seems that you do not know the basic contentious issues between these three religions. By declaring that Mohammed as the last prophet of God and that his holy book supercedes all the previous holy books (Christian and Jewish), Islam directly undermines these two religions. Now do you think that followers of these two religions would ever ratify Islam and not feel like threatened by it. Would they ever be friends of Muslims, unless it was for, say some short term political gain?

Islam asks its followers to be cautious in friendships with these two groups. And now if you are going to ask why is it so, then I think it would be quite a stupid query.

Wont you agree with me that every political/religious group of people DOES define some restrictions for its followers to observe? Islam could have said even worse things than this (worse for Christians and Jews), what could you and I have done then?

So, Soul meri jaan, every religion wants to protects itself and tells its followers to act in ways that it deems correct according to goals and aims. So, take it or leave it, my man. It sounds unfair to me also, but hey life is not fair!!!

Your second observation that people living in the west are acting in an anti-Islamic way, is not also correct. You say very correctly here:

[QUOTE]
its not about personal taste in friends, its about instructions from your allah, not to seek friendship with jews and christians.
[/QUOTE]

The said ayat is certainly not about personal tastes of friends. Its directed more at the Muslim rulers. That they should be careful in friendships with Christians and Jews and not trust them. Your observation also makes sense in the way that ordinary Muslims individually extending hands of personal friendship towards Christians and Jews wont have to fear anything. Personal friendships between ordinary people dont have any bearing on important worldwide political issues and as such pose no danger to Islam. So, you are allowed to be my friend, should you like it.

Muslims living in the west would be anti-Islamic if they get involved un activities that harm Islam but I think you would agree with me that they dont. They just live honest lives here like honest hardworking people, observing the law of the land and also keeping in touch with their religion, without hurting either.

the problem with you all is, the moment any nonmoslem ask you an uncomfortable question about the violent passages in your holy text...you all start throwing tantrums like lil' kiddos...Or start accusing the person of insulting your text....or call the person closed minded, deaf-dumb and ignorant, just 'coz you dont have the answers.

For the rest of the time you claim how perfect the God given gift of holy text is...but find a fault with it..and its usual response- 'you dont understand' or 'You are quoting our text out of context' ...'you are malicious'...'Youre malipulating our text'

To put it straight, i have not messed or misquoted or manipulated any verse. These same verses are there on islamic site....besides, i have given you a link which shows that Saudi Arabian text books teach these verses in their school.

So i dont need an open mind, rather you all need it.

besides, i wouldn't care if your allah want you to stone yourself to death...you neednot even give me reason.
But if there are verses that are clearly sprewing hatred for rest of us...i have a valid reason to feel offended.

If you dont want nonmoslems to quote your text, why does your text carry our reference??

[QUOTE]
p.s plz do tell me one religion in this world which says that other believers of different faith will go to heaven?
[/QUOTE]

Which one other than yours, pray?
No other religion sprews hatred for other 'religions' at the magnitude its done in islam.

Jesus said love thy enemy, Gita says all religions are equal, Buddhism and jainism says find god within you, Moses says eye for an eye...where did any one of them nitpicked other's religions??

And yeah Bible is violent, But tell me how many christians read it 5 times and get inspired to blow ppl up....simply cause they dont worship the same god as them....or get touchy about those verses....

AvgAmericanGirl is the only one who has shown patience.

[QUOTE]
In the contexts and out of the contexts….Pls read Hindu scriptures, Gita or something else, no one will ask you to be careful of contexts. I have never met any Christian stressing on contexts.
Why Muslims push every one to the context corner?
[/QUOTE]

i agree!!

Thanx Wane.
That was something worth reading...
and more human.

Something that even i beleive,
That Islam was invented for special purpose however, the God aspect is over played. I dunno how much God was really involved.