Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
If thats your logic, then 10 people out 15 in the world arent even Muslim. Maybe your the remaining person?
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
I was not telling you exact numbers but giving you an example. Even if 2 people out 15 think same, it can be expanded to where more number of people would think same.
it may sound odd to people around but the solution of co-existence will never work. It impossible for human to like one concept and not hate which is parallel to what he likes. So one unified thought is the solution. It may seems impossible to you but suggested co-existence is not a solution.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
Throughout human existence our history and present situation very clearly shows that people were never able to control each other fully no matter what so there is no chance of anyone controlling anyone against one’s will in the future either. In fact more so in the future because humanity is becoming more and more aware so that awareness reduces chance of people controlling each other through force only.
This means the only way people can come together or unite willingly is on basis of goals and guidelines that can ensure for people better future. Since all religions are only make beliefs which offer nothing at all to humanity other than baseless divisions and backwardness therefore people are going to move away from this way of life and turn to way of life that is reality based. This is why as people discover more and more about the actual message of the quran, deen of islam is going to become the uniting force because it has the right message for humanity and offers mankind proper foundation to build their proper human community upon. This is why rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters are going to lose their power as people become more and more self aware, aware about their world and aware of the actual message of their creator.
This is why deen of islam is about truth and propriety not nonsense make beliefs and useless rituals that mullahs are busy spreading for making fools of people. The same goes for rulers and money lenders as regard their tricks and mechanisms which they use to make fool of ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained and unskilled people. The future belongs to highly motivated, highly educated, highly trained and highly skilled people in the world as a proper human community that ensures well being of all members of its society in every way humanly possible for it.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
Dear Med911, the solution is out there already but we humans have not yet discovered it for ourselves otherwise we ought to be living as a proper human community already. Things take time because we are born ignorant and take time to learn and understand things. Since our human population is in billions and we hardly act in the best interest of each other therefore we have yet to cover a lot of ground to get to the solution. Nonetheless we are gradually moving towards the solution be it unknowingly because that is the way God has set-up this world to work ie that we learn things ourselves like self programming robots through interactions within our provided environment. Some of us are always discovering new things both in creation and revelation and others keep catching up and so world keeps changing for the better bit by bit. So we should remain hopeful for a brilliant future no matter what.
regards and all the best.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
Dear ajazali, you are right that coexistence is impossible but that is only because we have not yet discovered the way of life that could unite us on basis of blissful, dignified and secure existence as a proper human community which ensure well being of all its members. So long as people continue living on the basis of make beliefs and try to look at things from that angle bad things will keep happening but as bad things keep happening we keep moving each other towards better and better position. This readjustment of our positions keeps us going in the right direction. It is a slow process for change but only because we are not bothered with learning and teaching sense to each other as we should. Instead we are busy trying to dominate each other by undermining each other. So we have a ten steps forward and nine steps backwards situation but if we all helped each other in educating each other then all ten of our steps could be going forward so the process for change for the better could be speeded up many folds.
Our main problem is accepting islam as a religion rather than accepting it as a deen or a way of life which can lead mankind to unity, peace, progress and prosperity. If we accept islam as a religion then we are accepting it as a system of unfounded beliefs and therefore we are bound by blind faith. If all had blind faith then who can convince anyone to anything else because blind faith means having no need for proper explanation and evidences for knowing anything at all. On the contrary if we accept islam as a deen from Allah for the well being of humanity then we have no choice but to accept it as a set of goals for humanity to accomplish according to provided guidelines. We all who have some sense know that goals and guidelines have ability to unite people whom they suit. So if a set of goals and guidelines is such that it suits humanity as a proper human community then such goals and guidelines most definitely are capable of producing the proper human community the quran talks about. The problem is, in order to adopt goals and guidelines based approach we have no choice but to leave religion/s or make beliefs and useless rituals or ways of doing things. That is something we are not willing to do due to our ignorance till we become educated enough. The question is, are we willing to educate ourselves and each other out of our ignorance about things?
regards and all the best.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
Places where the government allows freedom of expression and freedom of religion are generally more peaceful and harmonious then countries, like Pakistan, that do not allow religious freedom. In America for example Muslims live alongside Jews and Christians.
Most if the countries where religion is centralized you find terrorism, sectarianism and one form or another of barbarity.
I will take liberal secular govt over the overbearing religious quasi theocratic govts any day.
Other point was that you cant always convince people, particularly in matters of faith. You cant be persuaded that your faith is wrong, nor can you convince another that his faith is wrong. And where it is dangerous is when you dehumanize others and believe that their understanding and their identity is somehow less valid and less genuine then yours. In the case of Ahmadis, you call them kafir and deny them their religious freedom, because you fail to realize that they being equal, are as entitled to their beliefs as u are to your own. If you cant acknowledge the rights of others, or their humanity, then dont complain when others treat you similarly. For the sake of peace, you should learn to accept differences of opinion even on religious matters.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
When I say there is no solution, im referring to specific situation, in which the kind of solution that the poster is seeking does not exist. What I mean is that there is no solution to be found too the social problems of today in imposing religious doctrine. There is no solution in dogma.
But beyond that im sure there are solutions to many of our societal problems. It takes pragmatism and doing what is logical and just..
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
Well said :k:
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
Quran addresses this. There are non-muslims who are good people - leave them alone.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
In the absence of a wordly penalty by a muslim STATE towards a blasphemer, only natural conclusion is that we are not to execute a blasphemer.
But then the term blasphemy gets confused with treason. Treason to the Islamic state IS punishable by death. But then treason in most countries is considered a high crime, and in many countries is punishable by death, so it’s not like Islam is coming up with some new concept here.
Now if the state is a religious state, a treasonous individual is technically going against a state but also the religion since religion = state. Therefore, the term blasphemer in modern COMMON understanding of the term, is thought to receive a death penalty. But this is the penalty for a treasonous indiviudal, not one who has strayed away from Islam.
Quran is pretty clear about this. It addressed people who have converted out. It addressed people who believe, then don’t believe, then believe again, then don’t believe again, and go back and forth. For these people, there is no on-world death penalty. There is a threat that the judgement day might not be so peachy for them, but Allah doesn’t say that we have to kill these people.
However, treason is different.
The hadith that refer to some folks that were executed by the initial muslims during early Islam under Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s leadership were not executed for apostasy or blasphemy actually, they were commiting treason. They identified as muslims, then some story about how they ran off with a bunch of camels (sounds funny, but that was their version of army tanks back then), and then went to Mecca and started conspiring how to kill muslims and kill Prophet Muhammad. They had plans, and somehow news was leaked and the muslims found out and were prepared for attack and these traitors were executed.
So treason and apostasy/blasphemy are different, although can overlap, but punishments are different (worldy punishments).
Now, try explaining any of this to some uneducated rap bee-bopping airheaded 19 yr old whose testosterone swings out of control when he sees an abhorrent image of Abu Ghraib rectal rapes, and they wont understand any of this. If one has not read the Quran and tried to understand it’s verses and tried to learn some history with it, you’re not going to get these distinctions.
Fact that “scholars” and legal authorities have confused treason with blasphemy and there are current blasphemy laws on the books in Pakistan is just sad. Even the author of these laws admits he made a mistake in the religious interpretations presented to him. :-/ There was an article on this on dawn recently. Still laws are not being repealed. Just ridiculous.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
For the sake of understanding lets call it “brainwashing”. At-least Islam would do that on the basis of morality.
The world is going to become like homogeneous society like people are going to gather under one thought like liberalism. no denying. but i must say there are efforts behind this change. Similarly, Islam has its own doctrine for revolutionize people to make them one Islamic civilization. But the problem is Muslims are divided. Since non-religious forces have made it possible for them that they are in dominating positions to influence people’s thought thats why people think that the ruling of religion are non-implementable. Where as the difference is who is influencing the world, Islam or the other forces.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
exactly. but the point I was trying to make is non-Islamic force have power of media and other sources. they have influenced enough that people now find religious or moral argument irrelevant. Since we are not united we cannot follow an approach where we can influence people. And I also believe that mullah is still making their followers blind believers. they dont allow people understand quran.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
For the attention of all my knowledgeable friends. Please get it in your heads that cracking jokes is ok so long as we all have a good laugh at them but if we crack jokes at the expense of each other then causing offence is not ok by its very nature because ridiculing is an insult and not a joke at all.
The question is, why ridiculing is a very different case than mere cracking jokes? It is because you intend to cause offence and hurt and there is no other explanation possible for it. If anyone has any better explanation then let us have it.
However this does not mean that if anyone has any wrong ideas or takes any wrong actions then we should not be constructively critical of that idea or action or even the person. The only way to stop wrong things from happening in the human society is to educate people out of ignorance that leads them to hold wrong ideas and take wrong actions which end up hurting or destroying people. One cannot build a better relationship on that basis if we want to be friends through having proper understanding of each other and things of concern. However this is a very slow process and we all know this from our own very life experiences how hard work it is to learn things. The first option in that case is always imposed learning and forced stopping of people from doing the wrong the while people are ignorant. This is why we put our children through education by force if we have to as parents and we accept that it is for their own better future. Not only that but we also stop a child by force if we have to when a child picks up a loaded gun by accident before he does any damage to himself or anyone else. We do all this for ensuring his own safety and security and safety and security of everyone else.
If we think it through then we will realise that this gives us clear foundation as to how to decide issues and how to deal with them or each other ie we must do whatever we do for ensuring well being of each other even if it means using force against each other to achieve the good end result. So although it is not wrong to take an action but to take it for all the wrong reasons is wrong. This is what leads to tit for tat interaction between people and once we take that road then there is no point in complaining about it. In fact this is what double standards is all about that a people want one rule for themselves and another for all others. This is real cause of all our troubles and the sooner we realise this the better it will be for all of us.
When you decide to ridicule anyone for any reason whatsoever you are showing that you are not interested in learning and reasoning things out because you intend to attack and hurt the other person the way you think you can so you become an unreasonable person therefore you decide to insult the other person instead of trying to find a way to solve the differences and that shows you have lost the argument right at the start to begin with. If you had any reasonable argument you will have argued your case instead of resorting to ridiculing, name calling and abusing and therefore will have tried to educate people to help them understand where you are coming from instead of turning the whole situation into war zone. On the other hand you will also expect that the other side also learns what you are trying to put across because if it does not then the case will be decided in the streets with a lot of bloodshed that will become inevitable due to use of force when ignorance prevails. So people either need to choose to live in peace or die confused and fighting by hands of each other. This is why I have made quite a bit of effort in trying to help people educate themselves and each other. See HERE and HERE. It is a must read for all regardless muslims or nonmuslims.
If we want other people to stop insulting our deen then our role should be to learn deen of islam properly so that we ourselves could give up nonsense that is taught to us by our ignorant mullahs as islam which makes us a laughingstock for the rest of the world and drives some of us into actions that hurt or destroy others. Are we not killing each other due to number of sects we have become divided into thanks to our mullahs who indoctrinated us with false beliefs and useless rituals in order to mislead us from the actual message of the quran? So if we are busy killing each other anyway then what difference does it make if others also come and kill us like sitting ducks? Are we not using and abusing each other just like kufaar for our personal gains at the expense of each other? Have we no sense that this cannot be foundation for a brotherhood or an ummah? Why are we not confronting our mullahs ourselves when they talk against our deen of islam? Unless we do that our mullahs will not change and we will remain in terrible state of existence. Mullahs and their teachings are the first batch of our problems and so long as mullaism is in place and secure no betterment is possible in the ummah. Only when we will get rid of mullaism that we will be able to get at rulers and money lenders because mullaism provides them with cover and security. All this we cannot do till we start studying the quran ourselves for the purpose it is given to us.
So long as some of us who claim to be muslims will keep hurting other human beings needlessly and claim that they are doing it for the deen of islam, we are giving other people the reason to call over deen of islam by bad names or worse because that is what people who get hurt do ie they use abusive language because they are hurt. Of course people who want to give deen of islam the bad name because they have ulterior motives as fully explained by work on the quran. This we also must make sure that we are not cursing each other due to what other people say about us due to setting up traps for us in various ways.
Deen of islam is the future of mankind and it means rulers, money lenders, mullahs, their touts and supporters are going to be out business of use and abuse of humanity so they are going to do all that is in their power to ensure deen of islam does not become the way of life of mankind. This means muslims need to educate themselves to be clever enough to see what such people are up to who do not want mankind to adopt a way of life that can land them in blissful, dignified and secure existence.
People should know that whatever movies people make or see there are heroes and villains and bad guys always conspires against the good guys to bring them down. It is always cops chasing the robbers.
Re: Does God needs people to defend HIM?
^ Interestingly we are always taught there is no such thing as a “pope” in Islam, or a pastor to which you must do confession, etc. Right? The relationship is between you and your Creator. There is no middle-man. Yet these “mullahs” are functioning as just that. They are the middle man between you and your Creator, and they tell you how to believe, how to pray, how to dress, down to how to groom the hair on your body (if you see it like that, you’ll see how silly it is for any maulvi to demand the go’ers of a mosque all grow beards because he said so), or set gender rules, and tell me as a woman what I can or can’t do.
I agree, we need to get rid of the middle men.