Re: Does God Exist?
And compassionate , and mercy full , and Omnipotent , and omniscient, and caring , and loving , and forgiving , and creator .
Natural Law ? What is nature ? where it came from ? You are negating your own logic by bringing nature into the picture, aren't you ?
Re: Does God Exist?
Not to be counterpoructive here but can we alter the chemical composition of a dead person and revive him?
We probably can. Let's try!
Re: Does God Exist?
Sorry I didn't mention those obvious qualities, I was only highlighting the ones that are un-Godlike.
Natural law by definition does not need anyone to create it or guide it. It certainly doesn't need an angel in every raindrop to find its place either.
Re: Does God Exist?
[QUOTE]
And compassionate , and mercy full , and Omnipotent , and omniscient, and caring , and loving , and forgiving , and creator .
[/QUOTE]
Compassionate, merciful, caring, loving to those who give up reason and look childishly up to him.
Forgiving anyone except those who don't believe in him, whom he will burn in hell for ever.
Omniscient- knowing everything except his own barbarity.(Or may be he does know it)
Omnipotent- power to burn millions of innocents in hell without needing to listen to promptings of the conscience.
Re: Does God Exist?
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut as always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him. They talked about so many things on various subjects.
Suddenly, they touched the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't believe that God exists as you say so." "Why do you say that?"
Asked the client. Well, it's so easy; you just have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. Oh, tell me, if God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. "I can't think of a God who permits all of these things." The client stopped for a moment thinking but he didn't want to respond so as to prevent an argument.
The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy). Then the client again entered the barbershop and he said to the barber: know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How come they don't exist?" asked the barber. "Well I am here and I am a barber." "No!" - the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street."
"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me." "Exactly!"- Affirmed the client. "That's the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him that's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."
There is so much pain in the world because pain is needed, hardships are needed. Withought knowing the sun's scorching heat, will you understand the value of shade? Real happiness lies in understandig the value of shade itself- otherwise happiness merely leads to boredom. That's how a paradise will be- a ruddy boring place.
Re: Does God Exist?
1) Is there an eternal and everlasting?
Yes
2) What is this eternal and everlasting called?
Allah , God , Al Rahim. Al wahid and many more names..
3) If the eternal and everlasting is God, what is the purpose of our life?
you see it is very childlike to think that Allah swt didn't kno that shaitaan will disobey and adam will eat the apple.. Allah swt knew it all.. but it was his special way to set guide lines and examples for us to always follow what HE says and tells us to do,, and dont question... and obey without reasoning... OK i never read this in a book but i think deep and then deeper and find answers within my own... cose Allah swt blew on Adam and we all got a tiny little bit of that blew.. from Allah swt.. the most merciful.. so we have all the anwers in us.. we just need to explore and probe and think..
so i think.. that the reason / purpose of life on earth for us is very much like a 3 hr final exam.. a test.. ..this test.. that we are forced to take.. sets us apart from eachother..with out own marks . cose we are given free will.. along with some destiny.. we can change our destiny with prayer and hard work..
so.. why this test?,, what does Allah swt want from this test ? the answer my heart gave me is ...
well HE had created our souls long before HE created this earth.. HE had all the powers to purify us souls and make them good only.. but that wasnt anything REAL .. therre was no challenge and sort of like you force someone to love you
Now when we live thru this test and make the choices on the basis of Allah's love and closeness and live by HIS will.. with all the freedom given to us and having all the options infront of us.. this is something pure and only for HIM .. and now we return to Allah swt and say you see i told you i loved you.. why you had to send me to that nasty place... and then some of us .. will say.. we werent sure.. how could we have believed you when we hadn't seen you...
but you kno.. if you have ever fallen in love.. you never doubt.. you don't doubt when you are in love..
so this whole test of living is abt true love..
4) What is His true Message?
Allah's true message.. I am not sure..
Re: Does God Exist?
Sorry I didn't mention those obvious qualities, I was only highlighting the ones that are un-Godlike.
Natural law by definition does not need anyone to create it or guide it. It certainly doesn't need an angel in every raindrop to find its place either.
Let us keep , angel , Allah , Prophets out of the picture. First define nature . Then we will talk about natural law. how can there be a natural law without something like nature being there ? So what/who is this nature ?
Re: Does God Exist?
[quote]
Scholar: How does it feel now that I've slapped you?
Young Man: Of course, I feel pain.
Scholar: So do you believe that pain exists?
Young Man: Yes.
Scholar: Show me the shape of the pain then?
Young Man: I cannot.
Scholar: That is my first answer. All of us feel God's (ALLAH) existence without being able to see His shape. Last night, did you dream that you will be slapped by me?
[/quote]
Pain is an electrical signal to the brain. Is God also a mere electrical signal, then we can eliminate him somehow, insha-technology :p
[quote]
Scholar: Did you ever think that you will get a slap from me, today?
Young Man: No.
Scholar: That is Taqdeer. My hand that I used to slap you, what is it created from?
Young Man: It is created from skin.
Scholar: How about your face, what is it created from?
Young Man: Skin.
Scholar: How do you feel after I slapped you?
Young Man: In pain, ofcourse.
Scholar: Even though the Shaitan(Devil) and Jahannum(Hell) were created from the fire, if Allah wants, inshallah, the hell will become a very painful place for the Shaitan.
[/quote]
Shaitan? LOL! No comments.
Re: Does God Exist?
[QUOTE]
Imam Abu Hanifa said, "I feel sorry about your state! You cannot imagine one ship running without some one looking after its affairs. Yet you think that for this whole world, which runs exactly and precisely, there is no one who looks after it, and no one owns it."
[/QUOTE]
I CAN imagine an uncontrolled ship, thank you very much.
Re: Does God Exist?
Let us keep , angel , Allah , Prophets out of the picture. First define nature . Then we will talk about natural law. how can there be a natural law without something like nature being there ? So what/who is this nature ?
So your whole basis for believing in God is based on a lack of knowledge or underrstanding on how it could exist without someone creating it. If that's your reasoning, what about God, who created that entity?
I happen to base my belief in God on the spiritual bond I feel, not because it satisfies my limited brain on how nature exists without him.
Re: Does God Exist?
We probably can. Let's try!
When you succeed let me know and we can get in the business of selling spirits.
Re: Does God Exist?
I happen to base my belief in God on the spiritual bond I feel, not because it satisfies my limited brain on how nature exists without him.
So you do believe in Allah. I rest my case . Thank you. May Allah provide you with more understanding and knowledge. Ameen. I am thankful to Allah that my lack of knowledge makes me believe in Allah.
Re: Does God Exist?
Where is your atma? Your mind, your self are products of chemical reactions. time and again, materialism in the form of Buddhism, jainism has proven your non-materialistic philosophies wrong. The decay of these two religions is a different matter.
where is your life located? and where is your mind located? atma is right in the very middle.
what has materialisting philosophies and religions to do with the question 'does God exist'? I am glad to discuss that too but not confuse the two.
Ok then. Define "what" is God? Someone who doesn't even define what is God and then says God exists is the one who is not honest with himself.
Define god as something unknowable undefinable(contradiction) unthinkable (vedanta style) and then saying he exists is pure intellectual dishonesty. Such a God must be unthinkable and non-existing too...duhhhh...
what exactly do you think I gain by being dishonest here? for the benefit of convincing you about God's existence? don't be haughty.
Let's say God is a purely fictional thing. fiction as you know exists but purely in the minds of the people. What is the difference between a fictional story that exists today and one that will be written by a future generation? The latter doesn't exist.
and the dynamic is what?
which is what I said in my first response.
As to scientists - I'm sure you can find a few hundred scientists, some of great achievements, who believe in God and who don't. Does either cease to be scientists? My view is, those who do not believe in God is limiting their ability to comprehend.
By the way, my definition of God is
all that I don't know. +
all that I perceive in which patterns and symbiosis exist +
a two-fold matter of faith:
1) such a vast majority of people who believe in a concept of God and because of that evolved rules and ethics of co-existence leading to civilization (come to think about it, here is a case in point of patterns and symbiosis right there)
2) when I feel really bad about myself, reposing my trust through a prayer on someone seems to make me feel better. So God is also a convenience in this respect.
I do not however subscribe to theories of vengeful divinity, rule making Gods or even religions said to be meted out Gods or their angels. i do think all religions are man-made just like God is but that the two are very different.
Re: Does God Exist?
Please, someone, define 'exists'
Re: Does God Exist?
people have started discussing and raising points which i was expecting and this is the reason why I posted the questions and emphasized on the sequential part. The reason of this thread is not to answer the questions in one go but present your arguments for first two questions and then wait for people's rebuttal to your points, anyhow.
Define 'exists'
look into dictionary please
Can you produce an evidence of a uncontrolled ship who built itself, created travellers and gathered the required sources required for the travellers to survive? The answer is no!
Let's not be so condescending. If there is a fantasy or bedtime story, it's the religious version of creation, which has no scientific backing.
I do not know if you ever realized but it is actually other way around
It has been empirically and scientifically shown that the universe is at least 13 billion years old. How does that fit in with religious doctrine? God waited a looooong time before he decided to create Adam and Eve, eh?
make sure that you remember your argument and thank you for bringing this up.
1) first up, time is something that is finite. With the destruction of the Universe, time will be destroyed too. This is not my "belief" but the recent theories in science. I hope my opinions are not taken as the opinion of all atheists. (this will make the word 'everlasting" meaningless)
I did not ask for finite stuff did I? This could be labelled as straw man!
again, The purpose of this thread is not to answer the questions i posted rather we want to debate whether God exists or not. If you read carefully what I said you may understand what I meant
**We'll start the debate with the first question and if reach a conclusion (prove your point) then we'll move on to the next one.
**We haven't even started the debate so how could it end? The reason I posted those question is that we want to follow the sequential logical order of questions regarding this topic because many times atheists jump from "is there a God" to "what is His true message" and they say "there are so many religions which one should i pick and how do i know which God is the right one so therefore God does not exist". So I want to make sure that people do not start the same old thing again.
so let me start with the first question, I'll present my arguments and then you can post a rebuttal and we'll move from there on. Bear with me, it could be long.
Is there something eternal and everlasting?
Basic Premise: No can rationally prove that we do not exist and anyone who argues that we do not exist disproves himself by his own argument. Non-existed things do not make arguments! Did we create ourselves? The answer is no because in order to create ourselves we first must be uncreated; in other words we must have been first nothing. However, nothing comes out of nothing. This is the classical argument presented in the Qur'an [52:35-36]. Thus, we exist and we are something. Either we must have always been or came out of something which has always been. The first part does not work because we were born and will die; in other words we are limited and never has always been. Anything that changes is temporal. No one can rationally disapprove it. In conclusion, we exist, and we came out of something which has always existed; in other words the eternal.
*The Eternal must be limitless
*
As I have mentioned above that no thing could arise from nothing or create itself, all things which exist must arise from something which has always been-- the eternal. Hence, since eternal cannot produce anything from nothing (because nothing produces nothing), whatever the eternal produces must be something which the eternal could have always produced and therefore all the temporal things must have always been the possibilities of the eternal. Now, whatever the nature of things may be, reality can be no more than the eternal and its possibilities. Reality is the combination of things which has born or yet to born. Given that there is nothing apart from the eternal and it is possibilities, it must logically follow that there is nothing to limit the eternal and its possibilities. Something which is neither eternal nor a possibility of the eternal is nothing and hence nothing cannot limit something. Therefore, the eternal and its possibilities must form a limitless reality. Since we came to the conclusion that all temporal (non-eternal) things strictly arise from the eternal, it is to state in effect that the eternal is the limitless reality. Where there is nothing apart from the eternal, there is nothing to limit the eternal. In conclusion, without anything limiting the eternal, the eternal must be limitless.
**The eternal must be unchangeable and hence everlasting
**Can the eternal be the sum or the combination of the limited things? The answer is no because, first, the multiplicity is only possible because there are limited things. Think about this way, two things or more, for that matter, combined together can never make something which they came out of. It also contradicts our basic premise. There are things more than one because one does not occupy the whole room and they move around or change positions or behaviours etc. hence they are limited. So we can say that limited things are movable, changeable or divisible and hence they cannot be the eternal or form an eternal because by definition in terms of positions in the space the changing or movable things cannot be eternal. To be eternal is what you have been forever. Therefore, the eternal is unchangeable.
Anything which is limited, changeable, must have a moment or place where it first begun to change or came into being, for example the humans. The subsequent or continuous changes cannot occur without a prior beginning. So in order to have a beginning there must be a pre-beginning or non-beginning position. Here, we are talking about beginning of all things in space. Since something which does not begin does not come from anywhere, it must follow that the eternal which given rise to everything must be everlasting.
Next question: what is this eternal thing?
Possible answers and arguments will be posted in the next post.
Re: Does God Exist?
Please, someone, define 'exists'
na tha kuch to khuda tha. na kuch hota to khuda hota
doboya mujh ko honay nay, na hota to kia main hota
:)
Re: Does God Exist?
[QUOTE]
Can you produce an evidence of a uncontrolled ship who built itself, created travellers and gathered the required sources required for the travellers to survive? The answer is no!
[/QUOTE]
if a dried up log falls into the river and floats on it, its a ship that built itself. If an animal that was drowning happens to hold on to this log, it is the passenger.
Re: Does God Exist?
You didn’t understand what I meant. Is Time Finite or Infinite? Time Before the Big Bang? | Diverse Thoughts
Re: Does God Exist?
God is faith and faith cannot be proven. I come to believe in God in my own way. But just to show that it cannot be proven I will play devil's advocate. :) My replies might come little late as I travel a lot.
As-Salamu 'Alaykum everyone
so this thread will be used to show our atheists friends that God does exist.
Before we start. Lets first investigate what is "God". I am not interested in Ibrahamic God vs Atheism. Because then you will start quoting faith books and it can be different frmo person to person. I am interested in theism vs atheism. So here is the question what is the defination of God in dictionary (as you have quoted to get the defination from the dictionary in one of your posts).
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut as always. He started to have a good conversation with the barber who attended him. They talked about so many things on various subjects.
Suddenly, they touched the subject of God. The barber said: "Look man, I don't believe that God exists as you say so." "Why do you say that?"
Asked the client. Well, it's so easy; you just have to go out in the street to realize that God does not exist. Oh, tell me, if God existed, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. "I can't think of a God who permits all of these things." The client stopped for a moment thinking but he didn't want to respond so as to prevent an argument.
The barber finished his job and the client went out of the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with a long hair and beard (it seems that it had been a long time since he had his cut and he looked so untidy). Then the client again entered the barbershop and he said to the barber: know what? Barbers do not exist."
"How come they don't exist?" asked the barber. "Well I am here and I am a barber." "No!" - the client exclaimed. "They don't exist because if they did there would be no people with long hair and beard like that man who walks in the street."
"Ah, barbers do exist, what happens is that people do not come to me." "Exactly!"- Affirmed the client. "That's the point. God does exist, what happens is people don't go to Him and do not look for Him that's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."
Foolish story for simple minded people. Barbers have physical form and shape unlike God. But keep em coming it keeps me amused.
Young man: Who are you? Can you answer my questions?
Scholar: I am one of ALLAH's slaves and inshallah, I will be able to answer your questions.
Young man : Are you sure? A lot of Professors and experts were not able to answer my questions.
Scholar: I will try my best, with the help of ALLAH.
Young Man: I have 3 questions:
Suddenly, the Scholar slapped the young man in the face very hard.
Young Man: (Feeling pain) Why are you getting angry at me?
Scholar: I am not angry at you. The slap is my answer to your three questions.
Young Man: How can that be? I really don't understand!
Scholar: How does it feel now that I've slapped you?
Young Man: Of course, I feel pain.
Scholar: So do you believe that pain exists?
Young Man: Yes.
Scholar: Show me the shape of the pain then?
Young Man: I cannot.
Scholar: That is my first answer. All of us feel God's (ALLAH) existence without being able to see His shape. Last night, did you dream that you will be slapped by me?
Young Man: No.
Scholar: Did you ever think that you will get a slap from me, today?
Young Man: No.
Scholar: That is Taqdeer. My hand that I used to slap you, what is it created from?
Young Man: It is created from skin.
Scholar: How about your face, what is it created from?
Young Man: Skin.
Scholar: How do you feel after I slapped you?
Young Man: In pain, ofcourse.
Scholar: Even though the Shaitan(Devil) and Jahannum(Hell) were created from the fire, if Allah wants, inshallah, the hell will become a very painful place for the Shaitan.
The simplest way to show pain to the scholar is to slap back and say this is pain. Or it can be done scientifically as said by another poster.
Three imams reply to the atheists
"Is there any proof that God exists?" was asked, by an atheist, of Imam Abu Hanifa and he replied, "Forget it! At the moment, I am busy thinking about this ship. People tell me there is a big ship, it contains different goods on board. There is no one to steer it, no one maintaining it. Yet, this ship keeps going back and forth; it even traverses big waves on the oceans; it stops at the locations that it is supposed to stop at; it continues in the direction that it is supposed to head. This ship has no captain and no one planning its trips."
The atheist who posed the question interrupted and exclaimed, "What kind of strange and silly thought is this? How can any intelligent person think that some thing like this can occur?"
Imam Abu Hanifa said, "I feel sorry about your state! You cannot imagine one ship running without some one looking after its affairs. Yet you think that for this whole world, which runs exactly and precisely, there is no one who looks after it, and no one owns it."
Hearing the reply, the atheist was left speechless but he found out more about Haqq (The Truth) and proclaimed Islam.
Emulating your reasoning then there must be someone higher than God to run God, so on and so forth.
Imam Shaa'fi replied to the question in the following way, "The leaves of Toot (berries) are all but one. Each leaf tastes exactly the same. Insects, honey bees, cows, goats, and deer live off of it. After eating these the insects produce silk; bees produce honey; deer give musk (a special kind of scent), cows and goats deliver off-springs. Is this not clear evidence that one kind of leaf has so many qualities, and who created these qualities? It is the Khaliq (Creator) who we call Allah (S.W.T.) Who is the Inventor and the Creator."
Acually I failed to see the relevance of this gem. So please clarify your point.
Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal reflected on the question in the following way. He said, "There is an incredibly strong fort, it has no doors, there is no way to get in. In fact, there is not even a hole in it. From outside it glows like the moon and from inside it shimmers like gold. It is sealed from all sides, matter of fact it is air tight. Suddenly one of its doors breaks down, a living thing with eyes and ears, a beautiful looking animal appears yelling and wandering all over. So is not there a creator who made it possible for life to take place in this secured and closed fort? And is not this Creator better than humans? This Creator has no limit." Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was referring to an egg which is closed from all sides but Allah (S.W.T.) The Khaliq (Creator) puts life in it and a chick pops out.
Creator has no limits? Really? Can God make another God exactly as himself.
so let me start with the first question, I'll present my arguments and then you can post a rebuttal and we'll move from there on. Bear with me, it could be long.
Is there something eternal and everlasting?
Basic Premise: No can rationally prove that we do not exist and anyone who argues that we do not exist disproves himself by his own argument. Non-existed things do not make arguments! Did we create ourselves? The answer is no because in order to create ourselves we first must be uncreated; in other words we must have been first nothing. However, nothing comes out of nothing. This is the classical argument presented in the Qur'an [52:35-36]. Thus, we exist and we are something. Either we must have always been or came out of something which has always been. The first part does not work because we were born and will die; in other words we are limited and never has always been. Anything that changes is temporal. No one can rationally disapprove it. In conclusion, we exist, and we came out of something which has always existed; in other words the eternal.
And what is your basis from keeping God following the universal principal. Please do not quote from faith books. Who created God so on and so forth.
na tha kuch to khuda tha. na kuch hota to khuda hota doboya mujh ko honay nay, na hota to kia main hota:)
Exactly this is probably our function in this world if there is God. Ghalib sahab has hit the nail on the head. Without me the existance of God means nothing as far as the individual is concerned. Afterall what is the point of being able to do anything and everything if I cannot show it off.:)
Re: Does God Exist?
ummm, are you really an atheist?
If you are, then what would an atheist do in a life or death situation where there is absolutely no way out and there is nothing one can do to get to safety? Would he/she just wait for death to come since he/she has no faith in something called God? Just wondering what an atheist would do in an intense,scary situation like that.
I personally would do some serious praying so I could get to safety even if I don't consider myself very religious but I realized after thinking about a situation like this that I would look towards God.