Does a Bad Muslim have a right to wage talk about or defend Islam?
Like suppose you are a bad Muslims who never prayed, indulged in idolatory on the sly, had bad habbits like drinking and womanizing, are an anti-social element etc., all or any of the above
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Do you still have a right to claim to speak for Muslims?
Andhra,,,in my opinion, there is no such thing as a Bad Muslim. You are either a Muslim or Not. You can be a Bad person, and that has nothing to do with your religious persuasion. But you do have a point; people with weak character should not promote ideology that they clearly are not following. That will be like Robbers running a bank or a drunk counseling others not to drink.
To answer your question, I've heard different opinions about the same matter. Some ppl say that (for example) you should not be instructing other people to pray when you yourself don't pray. Other disagree. Maybe someone can provide accurate references here to support either case.
For me, logically speaking, I would not be going around telling ppl not to get drunk, if ten minutes later I was going to crash in a bar myself. It's hypocrisy in my opinion. However, denfend Islam, I will (e.g, in aftermath of Sep 11), because I am a Muslim after all and it's different from other scenarios.
Finally, your comment "indulged in idolatory on the sly" makes me laugh. Heck, if I totally decided to ruin my life and go the "infidel" way and became a womanizing, non-praying drunkard, the last thing I'll be doing is bowing in front of a life-less entity and singing hymns in its name. Good try to slip in your practises though!
the last thing I’ll be doing is bowing in front of a life-less entity and singing hymns in its name.<<
Been to Hajj and ran around Kaba anytime sambaralian?
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We don't worship the ka'ba
We don’t worship the ka’ba<<
Don’t be a hypocrite Godfather. It is unIslamic.
If you don’t worship the Kaba why do millions of people come to Mecca and run around it like Hindus run around a temple?
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If that is not Worship what is?
Anyway for the sake of Argument let’s say You are Not Worshipping it. So what are you doing going around it every year? Cursing HIndus while you go around it?
"Cursing HIndus while you go around it?"
How did you know? Damn, gotta find someone else to curse on a journey for purification and renewal.
Sambrialian!!
You are not answring the question.
If ‘venerating lifeless forms’ is idolatory in you opinion, what do you say about the Muslim practice of Going around Kaba.
By the way cursing HIndus is no cure for curing some one of idolatory
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Infact I read that Saudis are making a special Silk cloth to cover the Kaba this year.
Charming. For your information HIndus stated the practice of COvering Idols with Silk clothes.
It all comes down to Niyyat. For example, given the number of threads you start on Islam, Muslims and Pakistan, one would erroneously assume that you actually wanted to have meaningful conversations on these topics. But that we both know is far from the truth.
Similarly, we know that we bow to Allah and not to Kaaba as our Provider and Lord.
Great job by the Hindus for covering up their idols with silk. Might I make a small suggestion. I think Hindus should take this adaptation one step further by growing beards. Ya know, it's good for mutliculturism and yadda yadda....
Ethically you are not, how can one teach, guide another person if he dosnt follow one thing, with some exceptions.
and PA: make one correction. Every one who recites kalima is muslim, but theere is another thing called Taqwa. And Muttqi person is that, who fears Allah, and follow Quran and Prophet’s Teachings.. And there are levels of taqwah. The height of Taqwah can be seen in REal Momins(Muslims with total beleif, and acts all in accordance with ISLAM)…
that is all..
Dont think “you can” know “you can”
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
We Muslims do not Worship Kaa’ba for sure. We are not Silly/dumb enough to worship a idol, piece of metal, give money and food to be spend upon idols. We perform pilgrimage because it is a duty upon us from ALLAH Almighty. and revolving around Kaaba is a essential part. clear is it ?
and decorating of Kaaba with silk cloth do not get the Idea that Muslims worship the Kaba.. Its the Allah whom we Muslims WORSHIP
Dont think “you can” know “you can”
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
Flamezz glad to you joined the debate!
We Muslims do not Worship Kaa'ba for sure. We are not Silly/dumb enough to worship a idol, piece of metal, give money and food to be spend upon idols. We perform pilgrimage because it is a duty upon us from ALLAH Almighty. and revolving around Kaaba is a essential part. clear is it ?<<
So going around a piece of square Masonry(Which Kaba is) respectfully is not idolatory?
decorating of Kaaba with silk cloth do not get the Idea that Muslims worship the Kaba.. Its the Allah whom we Muslims WORSHIP<<
The same argument can be made for HInduism as well. We are not worshipping the idol at all, but the NIRGUNA BRAHMA.
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So going around a piece of square Masonry(Which Kaba is) respectfully is not idolatory?
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Ibrahim says : Andhra my dear
Idolatry means
1 : the worship of a physical object as a god
2 : immoderate attachment or devotion to something
©1997, 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved.
Now Muslims do not worship the Ka’bah or get attached to it, nor is it an object of worship, like a cross/statue/idol that is hanged around necks or placed in front of an alter.
THUS MUSLIMS ARE NOT INVOLVED IN IDOLTERY!!!
The Ka’bah was first place of worship accepted by Allah from the first Manu/Adam and hence forth had remained as the place of sanctuary for mankind forever. Brahma and his son Atharva rebuilt it after the flood , where the 7th Manu , called vaivasvata , Sun-born , or from his piety , satya-vrata was preserved from a great flood by Vishnu in the form of a fish ( hindu mythology) .
Thus Muslims perform the circumambulations as their ancestors practiced which is even found in Hinduism today.
The circumambulation is a part of worship of Allah (swt) in Makkah ONLY and is not performed in any other region in Islam. This is due to the fact that the Ka’bah is not the House of God as perceived by mankind. Meaning God does not stay in that building, so one does not need to enter the Ka’bah even or stand in front of the door, one merely circumambulates ( tawaf) the kabah to receive mercies that had been promised to them by Allah (swt)
lets read!
Al-Tirmidhi HadithHadith 2576 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, ** "The circumambulation of the House is like prayer, except that you speak while performing it; but he who speaks must say only what is good."**
Tirmidhi, Nasa'i and Darimi transmitted it, Tirmidhi mentioning a number who traced it no farther back than Ibn Abbas.
Ibrahim says Thus, Muslims just do not walk around the Ka’bah but utter elaborate prayers as they go around it, each seeking what he wants from Allah (swt) meaning the prayers are addressed to Allah (swt) the UNSEEN Creator of mankind.
The reason being……….
2: 158 Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. ** So if those who visit the house in the season or at other times should compass them round it is no sin in them. ** And if anyone obeyeth his own impulse to good be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.
Fiqh-us-Sunnah Fiqh 5.71a ** Excellence of Tawaf **
Ibn 'Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "Every day Allah descends a hundred and twenty folds of His Mercy to His slaves who perform Hajj (to His House). ** Sixty-fold of these are specified for people performing tawaf, forty-fold for those who pray there, and twenty for those who look at the Ka'bah." **
Upon completing one's tawaf, one must offer a two rak'ah prayer at the Station of Ibrahim, reciting the verse of the Qur'an 2.125 ** "And take the Station of Abraham as a place of prayer." This will complete one tawaf around the Ka'bah.**
This tawaf is called Tawafal Qudum (Arrival Circumambulation), if a pilgrim is performing a mufrid (single) Hajj. Otherwise it is called Tawaf al Tahayya (Circumambulation of Greeting), or Tawafad Dakhul (Circumambulation of Entry). It is neither an essential condition nor an obligation. For a pilgrim performing Hajj Tamattu' (combining Hajj and 'Umrah with a break), or performing Hajj Qiran (combining Hajj and 'Umrah without a break), it is Tawafal 'Umrah ('Umrah Circumambulation), and after having performed it a pilgrim does not need to perform a Tawafal Tahaya or Tawafal Qudum. Such a pilgrim must, however, complete his 'Umrah making a Sa'i (seven rounds of walking) between the hills of Safa and Marwah.
Now let us look at Hinduism and its practices ……………
Puja.
Hindu worship (puja) consists essentially of an invocation, a reception, and the entertainment of God as a royal guest. It normally consists of 16 "attendances" (upacara): invocation by which the omnipresent God is invited to direct his attention to the particular worship; the offering of a seat, water (for washing the feet, for washing the hands, and for rinsing the mouth), a bath, a garment, a sacred thread, perfumes, flowers, incense, a lamp, food, and homage; ** and a circumambulation (pradaksina ) of the image and dismissal by God.**
Ibrahim says : So what the Hindus are doing is following what they where thrown out from doing in Arabia ( actual House of God where their idols were destroyed altogether) due to idolatry and are currently happy in doing them in India where they have invented their own house for their gods/idols.
Regards
Ibrahim
BTW Andhra I am not wasting my time for you but for those who may honestly not know the reasons. ** for you it is best to leave you to make a mokery of yourself like a true shudra.
Common sense always speaks too late. **
The Ka’bah was first place of worship accepted by Allah from the first Manu/Adam and hence forth had remained as the place of sanctuary for mankind forever. Brahma and his son Atharva rebuilt it after the flood , where the 7th Manu , called vaivasvata , Sun-born , or from his piety , satya-vrata was preserved from a great flood by Vishnu in the form of a fish ( hindu mythology) .
<<
Ibrahim first of all don’t mix Hindu Mytrhology with other religions. Let’s stick to idolatory at Kaaba.
Thus Muslims perform the circumambulations as their ancestors practiced which is even found in Hinduism today. <<
Ofcourse Hindus go around temples. They are idolators. THat is what you do in idolatory. You respect an inanimate object, treating as representation of GOd.
Question is why are Muslims doing it?
Ibrahim says Thus, Muslims just do not walk around the Ka’bah but utter elaborate prayers as they go around it, each seeking what he wants from Allah (swt) meaning the prayers are addressed to Allah (swt) the UNSEEN Creator of mankind. <<
Hindus just don’t walk around pieces of carved stones, but utter elaborate prayers as they go around it etc., How is what Muslims doing any different?
2: 158 Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the house in the season or at other times should compass them round it is no sin in them. And if anyone obeyeth his own impulse to good be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.<<
So are ‘Symbols’ not ‘Representations’ Ibrahim? And what are ‘Representaions Of God’ if not Idols?
By the way you can go on calling me a ‘Shudra’ if you like. Doesn’t change much. Brahmins are Brahmins you know!!
Also it doesn’t bother me at all becasue you are outside Hinduism.
ASalamz,
Andhara.. You should watch Michael Wolfe's documentary on Hajj, couple years ago they showed it on CNN and abc.
Peace!!!!
And yeah I am a strong advocate of practice what you preach..
[This message has been edited by Pakiice (edited February 22, 2002).]
The answer is yes. According to the scholars, if two Muslims are drinking alcohol, then at least one should have the wisdom to stop the other. It is not hypocrisy but a form of embellishment of faith, whereby telling the other person not to do something which you yourself do and in return following your own advice. If both remain quiet then 'fitna' or vices will spread, so the stronger of the two has the duty to at least point to the other's shortcoming. As for someone who "practices idolatry on the sly", he should remain quiet as idolatry (even a small amount) constitutes shirk, and a mushrik is no longer a Muslim. As for Muslims worshipping the Kaaba, there is no creation in the universe, let alone the Earth, that a Muslim will worship except Allah (SWT). Kaaba is merely a point towards which we bow, and if we can afford, nake a pilgrimage to. Kaaba is nothing more to a Muslim than a square construction made of bricks. It is respected ONLY because Allah has made it to be respected. Nothing more and nothing less.
You know andhra what i have extracted so far from your arguemtns so far..
You argure for the sake of discussion and argument...
after soo much detailed explanations as Ibrahim does, why the idea isnt clear to you ?
some times things arnt those what you see, so you cannot see the spirit by which a Muslims performs a pilgrim, and rvolve around the kaa'ba...
its a pity, that you cannot visit the most holiest and peacefull place on the earth.
That is all..
Dont think "you can" know "you can"
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
FlameZZ please read my reply to Ibrahim.
Anyway consider this translation of aKoranic Verse supplied by Ibrahim himself.
Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. <<
Now what is an idol if not a symbol of God?
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And what is idolatory if not venrating the idol?
And what do Muslims do around Kaba?
VEnerate it or Curse it?
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THe defense put up by Ibrahim is that Muslims pray to ALLAH not any idol.
Fine. He also says it is an order from Allah to go around Kaba.
So there is some thing about the structure of Kaba that is special.
‘Something Special’ about a structure is perfectly acceptable to idolators but not non-idolators!!
A scholar once provided a beautiful explanation about the reality of Ka'aba. People tend to take things in a literal sense that is where the twist in understanding comes from. First of all, concept of Allah (God) is very unique in Islam in that we only believe in one God. Thus, we do not ascribe any partners in the Godhead, so to speak. Now, the Quran has explained the attributes of Allah in such a powerful way that it gives rise to feelings of grandeur and awe in its believer. In essence, nobody can realize the mystery of God's essence and his reality never mixes with a contingent (accident). Therefore, he can never be thought of in terms of a tangible object, be it a human, animal or some other natural form much less a structure or a stone. Now, the human heart is the repository of the most valuable possession a person can have, i.e., faith in Allah's Essence and Attributes. In that meaning, the heart must be completely free of any conceivable notion with regards to Allah's essence and therefore, empty of any thoughts. Prophet Mohammad Alayhis Salaam ordered his companions and broke all the idols inside Ka'aba in a metaphorical display to rid the human heart of different types of idols and submit it to worship of only One Allah, the Magnificient, the Irresistable. Ka'aba is a cube and represents all six directions of the matrix and whichever direction we must turn, we find the dominion of Allah. Ka'aba, therefore, represents a 'sha'ar' or sign of Allah's Power and we submit to the Lordship of Allah in the direction we were ordered.
Now how is it similar to the understanding of idol worshipping that Hindus teach?
iqadeer >>First of all, concept of Allah (God) is very unique in Islam in that we only believe in one God. <<
First of all , concept of One GOd is not started by Islam, but Abraham!!
Refer to my post above and tell me how going around Kaba is not idolatory!!