We can't question the motives of those who convert because there is no such process in Islam. We don't convert ... we give dawah. Those who say convert now to others if it is true are wrong.
I am sure thats a fine point and that we can safely assume the dawat givers to be procedurally correct without fundamentally changing the objections of those who do object to this. What feels like a difference to the initiated is not one to the outsider, perhaps the molvies were saying it is dawa without the reporter realising the distinction between that and asking patients to convert.
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Look this hadith cannot alone allow ahkam to be drawn from it. If anyone does so it would be wrong. The question about the Jewish boy and his relationship with RasoolAllah would at least make us assume that he was fully aware of RasoolAllah (SAW) and who he (SAW) was. The hadith does not detail any previous dialogue the child had with RasoolAllah (SAW). The hadith also does not tell us to do the same - rather it states simply something that was done by RasoolAllah (SAW). It's not only because of the special status of Muhammad (SAW) that makes the interpretation specific.
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Alrite. Its the only one I could find specifically about talking about conversion when someone is sick. It is quite possible that the Prophet had been preaching to him beforehand.
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Let's use reason ... How many people will be able to make a conscious decision about faith when they are either in desperate pain or in some sort of psychological agony? And if they did convert in this state would that not be cause for them to convert back when they were better?
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Are you not doing exactly what the Sahabi did that the Prophet was so against? This was the point of giving the point of the person who said the kalima out of fear. Even if its likely that the decision is not a deeply considered one, one can argue that it is not our place to insist upon conditions for conversion.
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I'm not in the game of things being "interpreted both ways" if you get 100 random people together to read the Qur'an they will interpret the verses in different ways. The only way that matters is the one of scholarly consensus..
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Ah but even consensus has its struggles with relativism. Im positive that the majority opinion within the set of clerics these gentlemen follow will sanction their practice.
to convert to Islam, one MUST be in his FULL consciousness to make the very IMPORTANT conscious decision of his/her life...so, if someone is dieing and is NOT fully conscious, he can NOT make a conscious decision.
this thing must not have been allowed by the hospital staff/administration. its a GROSS misconduct indeed!**
I must inform this article is written by so called liberal because I have seen Tablighi Jamat People and they never talk like that although I disagree to them on some issues but still thy dont talk like that
eh? I thought hinduism believed in a recycle system (sorry don’t know the actual term) where if you do good, you come back as a good/higher order being and if you did wrong in this janam, you’d be a lower order being in the next janam. Are you saying this many janams thing is not really accurate?
I am sure thats a fine point and that we can safely assume the dawat givers to be procedurally correct without fundamentally changing the objections of those who do object to this. What feels like a difference to the initiated is not one to the outsider, perhaps the molvies were saying it is dawa without the reporter realising the distinction between that and asking patients to convert.
Alrite. Its the only one I could find specifically about talking about conversion when someone is sick. It is quite possible that the Prophet had been preaching to him beforehand.
Are you not doing exactly what the Sahabi did that the Prophet was so against? This was the point of giving the point of the person who said the kalima out of fear. Even if its likely that the decision is not a deeply considered one, one can argue that it is not our place to insist upon conditions for conversion.
Ah but even consensus has its struggles with relativism. Im positive that the majority opinion within the set of clerics these gentlemen follow will sanction their practice.
Peace ravage
The article hence was not one where the reporter was concerned with getting opinions and beliefs from the people who were doing the acts or she would have spoken to them, asking why they are doing such and such and used a name or two in her article.
We cannot say "Become a Muslim" to anyone who is not under obligation to obey us, otherwise we would be coercing and that is considered forceful activity. So if the only option left is that we give dawah ... we use intellect and wisdom and ask people to ponder and reflect. They would be unable to do this when very ill and sick. So if the dawah was given properly it would be ineffective for a desperately sick person and if people were simply being made to say the kalimah then that is considered forceful behaviour.
Consensus to me is the measure of opinion across madhab boundaries not just my own particular set of scholars.
eh? I thought hinduism believed in a recycle system (sorry don't know the actual term) where if you do good, you come back as a good/higher order being and if you did wrong in this janam, you'd be a lower order being in the next janam. Are you saying this many janams thing is not really accurate?
if a knowledgeable person on hinduism could join in and explain this in detail it would be much better b/c i feel my knowledge is inadequate even if i did try to understand the thought process here
when trying to understand the thinking behind eastern religions it's best not to see it from the abrahamic point of view.
there is a point when a human being does become one with God and finally enters the kingdom of God(the supreme being) even in Hinduism after innumerable births, deaths, rebirths and finally reaching a state of enlightenment.
finally merging with God Almighty becomes possible when all the impurities within the soul are removed forever....the soul finally liberating itself and becoming one with God
for me, some parts of the religion are very hard to understand and with all the different schools of thought, advaita,dwaita even more difficult so i'm still learning, southie or one of the other hindu members please correct me if i am wrong....thanku
most hindus don't do much more than pick a favorite god or three, pray and perform a few rituals to make them happy, celebrate some festivals, and live as per their society's religio-cultural norms without much questioning anything. most of them believe in heaven and hell, rather than moksha/nirvana, probably since it is the simpler idea.
^nope every time i talk about any religion i say that i'm still learning about it, including islam, but since this is a majority muslim forum i feel like i can ask as many questions about islam as possible, that's why i'm still asking questions about islam in the religion section. asking questions should always be welcomed.
all i ask is that if i do ask a question about any religion that it be answered by somebody that knows their religion inside and out, including islam. the "correct me if i'm wrong" is used with islam too....so total impartiality;) . oh look i'm using your annoying fav smiley
really i would prefer if you stayed as far away from my posts and questions as possible. this is my last response to you in this thread, i could care less what you think of me or my posts.
Asking question is good that is not the issue. **You do have double standard and that was pointed out.
**
If you want to ask question who knows religion inside out then you will not be doing that on forums.
I have pointed out before there are no Aalims here. People try nicely and answer with patience your questions, ( to their best of abilities) but you bring one question after another, still stay on your point of view, make everyone run to wild goose chase.
the thing is that where i have moved to to do my higher studies there aren't too many muslims and the ones i am friends with are mostly liberal muslims pakistani and indian that probably arent the ones to ask any questions about islam. i think that's how it should be when it concerns any religion, it's just insulting to the religion when people that have half knowledge about their religion 'inform' others about it. i have said it before that i am defensive about islam and other religions when somebody says something enormously ignorant or insulting.
i have never shown myself as naive, i do have knowledge on islam more than most nonmuslims but i think people like you give the religion a bad name, being overly defensive and thinking nonmuslims like me are up to no good especially when things that i might not have liked at first glance, i try to get another interpretation of or ask questions about so i'll better understand it, that has happened with quite a few verses in the quran. i like religious people don't get my signature wrong please, they are respectful and kind.
you just seem prejudiced against me, that's why i said the last line. can we please not derail the thread anymore.....
First, it is not derailing the topic of thread. Still within the bound of religion and what should be appropriate for daawah and even seeking knowledge.
Second, there is no excuse for you not to go to appropriate sites and place/person to learn about Islam, if sincere. And you are not, by the line of argument and type of questions you bring.
No sincere person says on forums,… people! if x was not in your religion I would have converted to your religion and …argue incessantly. Come on.
P.S. Yes you have shown yourself as naive both in terms of religious questions and picking up sexually related sentences from other’s posts and asking for further detail…
Per Hinduism - souls reincarnate. What they incarnate as depends upon their karmic bank balance. As souls become better and better life forms at some point in this maturation, they start seeking universal Truth and when they achieve that they (the soul) merges with the Supreme.
Diwana ji, it isn’t really nice of you to point fingers at someone like this. People post on forums for all kinds of queries so why is Nisha not allowed to. We may not have an aalim on GS but we do have many knowledgeable people.. At least she asks questions and seeks information while some of us just bask in our superiority complexes. How do you know she hasn’t been in touch with experts? And for god’s sake just because someone asks a question related to Islam doesn’t mean they should convert!
Perhaps a different way of saying the same thing might have been better so as to not cause any confusion that it was merely pointing out finger.
It was the double standard which time after time Nisha has shown which was highlighted. An opinion based on clear observation.
When she comes with questions, other members answer to their best of abilities and sincerity. Fine. But what is seen as her discussion becomes merely arguing on from one point to other, changing question along the way to make others run around from one other point and maybe that is fine, but when any other religion especially Hinduism is is talked about
[as was done by chacha_ghalib (who actually was quoting to player in this case,]
the notion of expert and knowledgeable person is thrown on their face. And this is all done in the name of learning to convert.
Like I said above, asking question for learning about another religion (for the sake of clarification) is not a problem, making incessant argument and getting nowhere AND along the way promoting wrong confused ideology (deliberately) of the religion in question is another.
People who sincerely are looking for conversion at least in my humble observation do not do that.
As to if we have great knowledgeable people as members, i that maybe the possibility, but it takes a lot more ( except in some miraculous lifetime events) that people convert their religion.
Lastly, I never expected anyone to convert by questioning about religions on online forums so how can I expect her to convert?
People merely can answer legitimate questions, but expecting to convert someone? That is beyond anyone’s abilities.
This thread gives the same idea that converting should not be a forceful act and rather it should be a voluntary act.
Hope this clarifies somewhat better what I said earlier.
well, Islam never force any one to convert, may their way of tableigh wer wrong,,,,, giving tabliegh of islam is the first duty of every muslim and they should have to see around, which is their basic writes to go around and tabliegh...
