Do You Support the Army Operation in Tribal Areas?

Society Military and Strategic Issues
21

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 5Abi: *

What will you say if the "kaffirs" did it themselves uninvited from the other side of the border? Whats more shameful? Cleaning up your own backyard or letting someone else point it to you and doing it for you? And trust me, the "kaffirs" dont need our permission to clean our own house either.
Remember carpet bombing in tora bora?
[/QUOTE]

I totally see what you are saying.

BUT

Why should we be so helpless and why should we let them dictate us to kill our Muslim brothers, our countrymen just because we are scared of them?

Don't you think that's cowardice and beghairti? Is this what Muslims should be doing?

Pak fauj is the best in the world and Pakistanis are a brave nation. We even have an atomic bomb. Let's stick to our principles, and let's not bow down. Let's refuse them when they ask us to do something unethical.

If they want to attack us or fight us, let them come, we can face them and inshallah defeat them. Pakistanion ne chooriyaan to nahi pehn rakhi naa. And waisay bhee sher kee mot is better than geedar kee zindagi.

In Ghazwa-e-Badr Muslims were 313 and Quraish were 1000, but Muslims still won.

First, our leaders allowed them to use Pakistani soil to attack our fellow Muslim country Afghanistan and kill our fellow Muslim civilian brothers, sisters, children there. Pakistanis were against it.

Thank God we refused to send our trops to Iraq.

And now they are making us kill our own countrymen.

What will they ask us to do tomorrow? And for how long will be keep saying yes to the kaafirs?

This is all really truly shameful for us.

22

Sorry forgot to mention one thing. You used the term ‘cleaning up’…They are not ‘cleaning up’…they are ‘wiping out’…just like they did in Afghanistan…how much they ‘cleaned up’ and how many innocent women, children, men they killed everyone knows…
and the same thing in Iraq…

we have first hand reports coming in here from people talking abt the civilian casualties in Wana area…and its increasing…

the pak fauj jawans are trying their best to save women and children, trying to evacuate them, but there are still whole villages that have been burnt down…and bombing by helicopters…buses with passengers that were blown up…and the pak fauj’s intention is not to kill innocent civilians but it was helpless despite its efforts b/c how do you save all innocent people from the brunt of an operation like this?

will those ppl ever forgive us for doing this to them?

and, if these ppl are terrorists, who are the bigger terrorists? the kaafirs who are perpetrating cruelties in kashmir, iraq, afghanistan, palestine or these terrorists? aafreen hae these terrorists have the nerve to call someone else a terrorist… :rolleyes: i dont know whether to laugh or cry honestly…

23

I think it is good opportunity to take some steps to bring tribalism under control, which is mostly responsible for people backwardness. The tribal chiefs, the relgious chiefs and the fuedal chiefs have ruined the dream of free pakistan.

We are held hostage by people who have little interest in avarage person's well being for a very long time now. It is time masses were give the proper chance to run their own lives. We must unite but only and only on the basis of fairness and cooperation one person one vote. Not coercion and control.

We need to throw away all false hopes and excuses if we are to make progess.

24

People seem constantly to be confusing reform of the tribal areas with this operation..the two are not linked at all. there have been 3 or 4 attempts at reforms of the tribal areas by the tribal people. All were opposed at the source ..Islamabad.

There are several other arguments against the operation:

Legally: To my knowledge there is no legal precedent for this operation and no authorisation from Parliament

Reform: As i mentioned this operation has NOTHING to do with reforming the tribal areas. In fact the style of punishment being used against tribes is business as usual.

Militancy: So far next to no Arabs have been found..Chechens and Uzbeks perhaps but almost no Arab fighters. Lastly opposition to the Army action has a lot to do with direct American influence in operation.

25

Now that we are in effect a Presidential cum parliamentary state (confirmed by the 17th constitutional ammendment), there is no necessary need for formal parliamentary approval, as is the case in other western democracies like the UK and Australia. All attempts to reform FATA previously have always been opposed by the illiterate, thuggish and chauvinist tribal elders of the region still living in the 1700’s. If the centre can bring reforms to the other four provinces, including Pashtun-majority NWFP, then why not FATA?, so I’m afraid your argument is as flimsy as your previous statements.

**The untamed frontier **](http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm)

Note this part:-

***Clearly, it is in the interests of the chiefs and notables of these areas to keep their people uneducated so they remain under their thumb. Women are subjugated in a way that would make the Taliban applaud. No constitutional rights are applicable, and the rule of law is a distant rumour. Despite electoral reforms, women simply are not permitted to vote. ***

P.S. I am sure the majority of the downtrodden population of FATA i.e. the women, those at the mercy of tribal blood feuds and arbitrary justice, and those forced to flee becauase of the presence of foreign terrorists are breathing a sigh of relief that finally the region is being opened up to the outside world.

26

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Abdali: *
Oh really, how very strange my family has always lived in Karach... there is no batha collection or killings like there use to be what happened, MQM thugs got killed or khakis don't exist any more? tell us!!!!!!!!!!. Why is MQM thug hiding in London if he has the public support no one can touch the scum, all he has to do is to stake his claim. Why are you hiding behind the khakis for the kartoots of leaders like bhuttio, bud and ganja, let me tell you why because your type cannot milk the cow when khaki run the show and that hurts. Next you will be telling me khakis opened bank accounts in switzerland and put budnazars label on it.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong, bhatta collection and bribe taking is now done by rangers and police exclusively. That's why they hated MQM so much. Someone was taking away their business. Not any other reason. Why do you keep thinking I would support benazir or nawaz?

And do you really think altaf would ever get a fair trial in pakistan? Be serious.

27

A big No: But I do support a civilian operation in the GHQ.

28

thuggish and chauvinist tribal elders of the region still living in the 1700's

Irfan Hussain has never spent any time in the tribal areas..and the last attempt to reform the tribal areas was stalled by Musharrafs government. Your argument is similar to the justification...used in suport of the Army operation in East Pakistan and Baluchistan..

there is no necessary need for formal parliamentary approval,

In a Presidential system you always need the legislative branches approval for actions..

29

At this rate Pakistan will lose even more people than the US did for it’s war.

  • The four boys, ranging in age from five to nine, were playing in fields near their village near Wana when they came under fire.

“How long will it take? It hurts,” cried eight-year-old Azam Tariq as doctors prepared to operate on his wounded legs.

His five-year-old cousin, Wahid Noor, lay unconscious nearby.

The father of two of the wounded boys said he had no idea who fired on them. “I don’t know what happened. We were sitting at home when this happened,” the man said.
*

Reuters

30

NO and i am shcoked to see this kind of action from MUSHY's govenment :|.... but ALLAH knows best adn u ppl are jsut saying what u heard or seen on the news but are not there ur selves :)

31

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *
...]

[/QUOTE]

Irem,

i never needed another reason to respect and admire you, but you surprise me every day - you have just given me one more reason to be truly grateful that i am your friend. i applaud your comments in this thread. You are the epitomy of a true Pakistani.

i cannot believe some of the comments in this thread. This is from the same individuals who decry the "collateral damage" when it is inflicted by people of another nationality, the Americans. But when it is Pakistanis shooting 5 or 4 year old kids, then we justify the collateral damage. Fantastically absurd 180 degree shift in human psychology.

Wake up and smell the blood, people. These are innocent civilians being killed here - they are dropping like flies. You have only to read some of the news reports filtering in from objective sources - sources we ALL use (each and every one of us) when it comes to reporting American-caused collateral damage. These are little kids, they are not the "Taleban", they are not "al Qaeda", they are little kids, barely past wearing diapers. This should never, ever be justifiable - some of them are amongst the poorest of the poorest families. They are marginalized in their own society as it is; how can we possibly justify the shedding of their blood ? Have we forgotten what Allah has Said regarding the loss of even one innocent life ?

i know everyone is going to call me emotional/sensitive blah blah. If crying over the loss of a child's amputation or his death is being overly sensitive, then by all means yes i am overly sensitive. When the Americans do it, we call it a violation of international law. When we do it, we call it rooting out terrorists. It is moments like this that make me ashamed.

In some ways i am glad that Quaid-e-Azam passed away. God Forbid he should have seen this day when Muslim turned against Muslim.

32

ur great ji :flower1: :flower1: :flower1: :slight_smile:

33

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mr Xtreme: *

Punjabi rural villages are pretty backwards too but we don't ban television or prevent cable access like the MMA led NWFP.
[/QUOTE]

is that a logic

I am sure when your children get drunk, and fallover each other,, you will say "oh look how progressive we are"

lets not forget these backward punjabi tirbal method of implementing "progressive" democracy was to punish a woman by gang rape because her son did not marry the right family

34

Irem, please ask Musharraf & company why do they let this happen every time. Our "fouj" is brave and all that, but why do we have to suffer all the time at the hands of the military fiddeling with the politics and running the country? As a Pakistani, you have every right to do so!

The poor jawans are just "Yes Sir" men and, probably would be wondering why they are doing all this against their own brothers in Islam. May be they felt the same way back in 1971, when they were forced to inflict pain on their fellow countrymen in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh). How can anyone be satisfied and happy with all thats happening out there? No matter how this conflict ends, Pakistan is going to lose.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *

I totally see what you are saying.

BUT

Why should we be so helpless and why should we let them dictate us to kill our Muslim brothers, our countrymen just because we are scared of them?

Don't you think that's cowardice and beghairti? Is this what Muslims should be doing?

Pak fauj is the best in the world and Pakistanis are a brave nation. We even have an atomic bomb. Let's stick to our principles, and let's not bow down. Let's refuse them when they ask us to do something unethical.

If they want to attack us or fight us, let them come, we can face them and inshallah defeat them. Pakistanion ne chooriyaan to nahi pehn rakhi naa. And waisay bhee sher kee mot is better than geedar kee zindagi.

In Ghazwa-e-Badr Muslims were 313 and Quraish were 1000, but Muslims still won.

First, our leaders allowed them to use Pakistani soil to attack our fellow Muslim country Afghanistan and kill our fellow Muslim civilian brothers, sisters, children there. Pakistanis were against it.

Thank God we refused to send our trops to Iraq.

And now they are making us kill our own countrymen.

What will they ask us to do tomorrow? And for how long will be keep saying yes to the kaafirs?

This is all really truly shameful for us.
[/QUOTE]

35

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *

Wrong, bhatta collection and bribe taking is now done by rangers and police exclusively. That's why they hated MQM so much. Someone was taking away their business. Not any other reason. Why do you keep thinking I would support benazir or nawaz?

And do you really think altaf would ever get a fair trial in pakistan? Be serious.
[/QUOTE]

You just stick to US coz you are an ameerikan.(u wish).. All the killing looting in Karachi was the work of army.
Some ppls kids...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

36

civilian operation in GHQ :), well said (y)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by shawaiz: *
A big No: But I do support a civilian operation in the GHQ.
[/QUOTE]

37

As a Pukhtun..... I cannot support the PAK ARMY for attacking Tribal area... If I were there in the Area as a NATIVE of that area and I were Supporting SOMEONE WHO ARE AGAINST USA ... I would have a Fight against everyone for that... .. Every one who invade my HOME.. I will fight against them...Regardless of if its PAK ARMY ... MY Own Country Army..

As a Muslim... I will never support Army for its action in Tribal area... bcoz... on the both sides the party that suffers is MUSLIM... Pak Army or Tribals both muslim and I cannot support MUSLIM killing MUSLIM for watever reason.

As a Pakistani.... I sure will SUPPORT PAK ARMY for its action. If any one who is working against the COUNTRY BENEFIT, they should be punished. And as the CC Peshaware said in interview that... I WILL MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF THEM, I WILL PUNISH THEM, I fully support him as ARMY MEN. For him The ppl who are giving support to ppl who are harmful for his country, are just ENEMIES and Wat esle can we expect from ARMY... ARMY has to take care of its countries interest.

THE GROUND REALITY is..... If PAK ARMY would't do this action, US would have created much more TERRIBLE problems for Pakistan. US will never want a STRONG PAKISTAN. BUT right now they dont have other option to give some benefit to PAK against very BIG favour.
Pakistan is not in the condition to STAND AGINST US.

If someday we see that we can STAND AGAINST THE TIDES OF US.... We defenetly will... otherwise PAKISTAN will be another WAR PRACTICVE ZONE for US and Allies.

May ALLAH give us Wisdom for our decisions. May ALLAH unite us as MUSLIMS.
(AMEEN)

38

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *

Irfan Hussain has never spent any time in the tribal areas..and the last attempt to reform the tribal areas was stalled by Musharrafs government. Your argument is similar to the justification...used in suport of the Army operation in East Pakistan and Baluchistan..

there is no necessary need for formal parliamentary approval,

In a Presidential system you always need the legislative branches approval for actions..
[/QUOTE]

Most of the people whose articles you cut and paste in these forums have not spent any time in the areas they comment on, so what's your point? The writer presents some basic facts that people who have spent time in FATA have always reported on, which you cannot counter at all, especially this part:-

**Clearly, it is in the interests of the chiefs and notables of these areas to keep their people uneducated so they remain under their thumb. Women are subjugated in a way that would make the Taliban applaud. No constitutional rights are applicable, and the rule of law is a distant rumour. Despite electoral reforms, women simply are not permitted to vote. **

In 1997 it was the federal government (that you are blaming without any sort of proof) which finally imposed the right to vote for all adults in the region, after 50 years when only the tribal chiefs chose the reprentatives to parliament previously. So tell us is it the pro-women rights Musharraf government that is stopping the women of the region from exercising the vote, or the male chauvisnist tribals? Please don't use the same redundant East Pakistan argument, which has been used by everyone without any facts since 1971 to criticise any military action. Some of the same people who are now criticising this operation supported what Naserullah Babar did in Karachi in the 1990's, and Musharraf's military coup in 1999, and now you turn round and lecture others on constitutionality.

Btw, read the constitution of Pakistan some time, and learn what the President needs to do and not to do, when it comes to these actions, and you will be surprised what he can do.

39

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Golden_Scorpion: *

As a Pakistani.... I sure will SUPPORT PAK ARMY for its action. If any one who is working against the COUNTRY BENEFIT, they should be punished. And as the CC Peshaware said in interview that... I WILL MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF THEM, I WILL PUNISH THEM, I fully support him as ARMY MEN. For him The ppl who are giving support to ppl who are harmful for his country, are just ENEMIES and Wat esle can we expect from ARMY... ARMY has to take care of its countries interest.

THE GROUND REALITY is..... If PAK ARMY would't do this action, US would have created much more TERRIBLE problems for Pakistan. US will never want a STRONG PAKISTAN. BUT right now they dont have other option to give some benefit to PAK against very BIG favour.
Pakistan is not in the condition to STAND AGINST US.

If someday we see that we can STAND AGAINST THE TIDES OF US.... We defenetly will... otherwise PAKISTAN will be another WAR PRACTICVE ZONE for US and Allies.

May ALLAH give us Wisdom for our decisions. May ALLAH unite us as MUSLIMS.
(AMEEN)
[/QUOTE]

Well said. Those who are against this operation no matter what, should be asked what they would do instead? President Musharraf specifically addressed the FATA tribals and implored on them to expel the foreign terrorists, before the start of this operation, so it is not as though he did not give them a clear chance to pursue the sensible peaceful route?

So would the opponents of the operation rather have the American military invading FATA...?

40

Yes, I wholeheartedly support the Army's operations in the FATA. The foreign militants are enemies of Pakistan. They began this conflict when they murdered Pakistani soldiers who were attempting to arrest them in late 2001. The Pakhtun tribes who have given them shelter have thus provided shelter to the enemies of Pakistan, an act of treason, and worse, have attacked Pakistani forces sent to deal with these enemies of Pakistan.

True, civilians have been caught in the crossfire, but this has happened in every Indo-Pak war. Those who are complaining of civilian casualties would surely not propose that in 1965 and 1971, Pakistan's army should have simply rolled over and stopped fighting to avoid civilian deaths?

Pakistan, unlike the USA, did attempt to take all possible measures to avoid civilian deaths. You will not that prior to the latest, most intense phase of the attacks, they specifically requested all civilians to evacuate the area - they gave fair warning of what was to come. Those civilians who are dying are those who ignored the government's plea for them to leave, they themselves bear the responsibility for what has happened to them since they did not pay heed to the government.