Nothing special here. I want to give some respect to Islam and therefore when you (or Hareem or others) utter something low class such as burn-in-hell, I prefer to separate you as a misguided muslim saying that rather than accusing Quran or Islam. Now, do you want me to change that and accuse Quran and Islam in general instead of you? suit yourself.
In one breadth you want to give respect and accuse it of containing cussing sounds a bit ironic.
Go ask anyone who knows normal spoken english. If someone or something tells you 'go burn in hell' that is cussing.
There you go, doesn't need much clarification after this does it. Your using the connotations of English language to define what the Quran means when the English language or its linguistic connotations did not even exist when Quran was revealed. It can't get more unjust when attaching whimsical descriptions of your own linguistic products to the Quran or uncontextualized blabber, if you don't mind me putting it that way.
good - so you have suceeded in obfuscating. Which is what I said in the first place!
No I said you've been unsuccesful.
what makes you think I will reciprocate for each inanity you raise?
What makes you think I would even hurl such at you?
And I told you that Hinduism does not do that. Hinduism expects you to use your brain, understand your duties and perform them. And that is just as well - look at what some of you are doing - you say 'burn in hell' and hide behind quran for saying that. It is exactly to prevent such dishonesty is why.
Hide behind the Quran, what a dishonesty? If anything we are not at all apologetic about the message in the Quran. However truth is bitter and a lot of people feel that.
In Islam denying the existence of God is considered an injustice and the worst of misdeeds
[/QUOTE]
That's what makes Islam intolerant and allah psychotic. "not believing" in god is worse than rape, murder, robbery, genocide of jews, loot,plunder, terrorism? Disgusting.
That's what makes Islam intolerant and allah psychotic. "not believing" in god is worse than rape, murder, robbery, genocide of jews, loot,plunder, terrorism? Disgusting.
Islam doesn't say rape, murder, robbery, genocide, loot and plunder is any less a sin. Your thinking God as a fellow humam being and comparing God with things which do not affect him but only us. The crimes you are talking about are crimes or injustices between humanity not between God and Humanity and carry very severe punishments in Islam. The proportion of the punishment for such crimes in Islam very lucidly indicates how much they are detested and hated. For us, its better to pay for our crimes against humanity while still in this world because that saves us from the punishment in the hereafter which is much more severe.
Crimes against humanity are separate AND
Crimes against the creator are separate.
Don't conflate the two. I'm think you'd be hypocritical enough to even be out here speakig up against Islamic punishments and then you are advocating them as the worst of crimes but ones that don't deserve severe punishments.
Then how do they have the realization of good and bad which eventually according to your philosophy leads them to being reincarnated into a higher or lower form of life. So from being a rat, how do they transition to a muskrat or a mouse?
Nobody needs to read the Vedas to understand their Dharmic responsibilities. Vedas simply provide some ways and means of going about it. They are not cook books, they are not a list of do's and don'ts. In fact the Srimad Bhagavat Gita itself came about due to the recognition that given where humanity had progressed at that time, a simpler interpretation of the philosophy was required - the philosophy dealing with how an individual connects with the whole. That's it in a nutshell.
So its a philosophical book of some great men of the past, nothinig divine about it.
But I do understand why you may find it difficult to conceptualize. Many muslims consider the Quran to be all encompassing and something to be compliant to (eg look at the numerous questions about does quran allow this etc).
Quran is a message from Allah SWT according to our belief and testament. Its not a world Almanac or Encyclopedia. It is a guidance which we use in all aspects of life. Some set in stone and others not, which has given rise to fiqh. Our principles in life do not change, the first and foremost of which is to earn the pleasure Allah SWT. It is two-fold i.e. spiritual and humane.
So now getting back to the original discussion - does Quran say non-believers will burn in hell? if it does then it is hypocritical to claim it to be a message of tolerant peace!
Might be much worse and muslims are not exempt from it, if that makes you feel a little better. Muslims are the ones who are trying to avoid that fate though and would like the rest of you to avoid it as well. What you do in this world does not affect me because we believe we will be judged only for our own deeds. I am just delivering the message. The choice is yours. So its not about being tolerant or intolerant. See I cannot send you to hell or heaven, its not in my power, so it has nothing with me being tolerant or intolerant. If Allah SWT will not tolerate certain things, the point is there ain't a damn thing we can do about it other than believe or disbelieve. However we know where each choice leads, the smart one will opt for the better choice. When we submit, we are testifying that cannot measure upto Allah SWT in anyway and that is a fact and truth lies at the heart of it. In the end, we are told, his mercy prevails over his wrath, so always hope for the best but not at the expense of doing everything to erode that hope. Muslims do not submit to humans but only God, but subscribing to an ideology that runs contrary to belief in Allah SWT we would be submitting to humans.
I lft out Buddhists, rest of Hindus, Shintos, Taoists, Confucianists, animists, Falun-Gong, Voodoo.
BTW, if all religions were intolerant, I wouldn’t have hesitated to leave anyone. So control ur laughter.
I lft out Buddhists, rest of Hindus, Shintos, Taoists, Confucianists, animists, Falun-Gong, Voodoo.
BTW, if all religions were intolerant, I wouldn't have hesitated to leave anyone. So control ur laughter.
Hindu's are tolerant. Only that issue is that I am to become a rat if I don't use my brain to realize my dharmic duties.
Injustice to be more exact. Unfortunately for you, he’s your God as well, whether you accept it or not. However you’ve chose to be the 10 year old red-haired problem child of the family …
In case of human beings, by experience and thinking things through. In case of non-human beings, I don’t know, it is for them to know. Also don’t automatically conclude that rat to mouse is an upgrade unless you have some inside track.
If you guys have a way of knowing how rats think and learn, I am curious to know
you obviously haven’t heard about religion being nothing else but a certain philosophy in action. What you are saying is no different from concluding that quran is nothing but the result of a hallucinated mind of an epileptic - where is the divinity there?
see above. It is only according to your belief. Unless you have a video of Allah dictating Quran or Sri Krishna esposing the Srimad Bhagwat Gita, you cannot hold either up to current day court definition of evidence of divinity. So right from the get go, both and a myriad others have the exact same credibility as far as the source goes. Further merits or demerits of each have to be based on the content, applicability, relevance, and ethical principles.
As applicability, relevance and ethics are context driven and since context changes over a long periods of time, the adaptability of the work becomes a virtue and rigidity becomes a liability that renders the work useless.
This to me is therefore a qualitative comparison rather than a test of source divinity.
So what? I will take issue with the accuracy of your statement about principles not changing, ask you why you want to earn the pleasure of Allah etc but it is not germaine here.
Also show me one religion or cult that doesn’t claim it is about spiritual and humane.
refer the highlighted.
we are not discussing your tolerance or intolerance because as you said there ain’t damn thing you can do either way. what has been questioned is the claim that islam is a tolerant and peaceful religion; given that islam is based on quran and that very quran says uses language such as burn-in-hell and worse, there is a built in hypocrisy.
We wouldn’t bother even about that if some of those who are muslim aren’t going around killing non-believers quoting the quran; but the fact us they are! so when we search for the reasons within quran we find these statements which the jihadis take as justification to their actions.
Let us take it to higher level of abstraction and use the term God instead of Allah - now, obviously God has proved quite tolerant of non-muslims. There is unshakable proof for that, some of which are:
4/5 of the world’s population does not believe in the specific Allah you’re talking about, yet doing no worse than the 1/5.
While a majority of the killings are being committed by those who say they are ‘believers’ by your definiton, a dominating majority of charity, and humanitarian efforts (the very same virtues I have heard Quran espouse) are undertaken by the non-believers
What’s worse and making it conclusive is the fact that not only is a majority of the killings are committed by ‘believers’ (by your definition) but a majority the ‘killed’ is also the ‘believers’.
So it seems to me that Allah likes the non-believers than believers.
muslims do submit to humans all the time. some examples:
those living under a dictatorship are submitting to the dictator
womenfolk, to be held righteous, are submitting to their parents and husbands
when you apply for a credit card online, you are submitting your data to me
when you want to travel abroad, you are submitting your application for visa to someone
I know, I know, in all these cases we are really submitting to the underlying law that the submittee is enforcing and not to the submittee per se. In fact the submittee will also have to do the same thing to get a visa, a credit card or to be held righteous. Submission to God is no different. That is why Gods are also operating within a Dharma!
why aren't you respecting the atheist or agnostic views though? We as human beings shouldn't act so high on ourselves, at the end we might think we have all the knowledge about the universe but then we end up finding out that we are just a speck in this gigantic universe.
All views should be considered and not ridiculed.....why do we go around with blinkers on as if whatever our little religion says is always right no matter what others say? All religions are flawed and there is nothing wrong with questioning all things and all views
I agree and I will also admit that it happens to the best of us in the heat of argument and passion. That is I think being human. When the passion passes, you shake it off and shake hands with the other side.
But when such 'arrogance' becomes institutionalized is when we end up with a serious problem. It sometimes makes you wonder whether religions are more trouble than they're worth. Religions that cause more trouble than they resolve should be banned :)
^my comment was a general one, I admit it was fueled by usresident's comments, but whatever insight atheists have about all questions in the universe should also be considered
^ I know you meant USResdient but we all get passionate sometimes.
One thing about USResident - his long posts and responses seem mostly self written and not mere cut and paste. Therefore I respect him for trying to get his point of view across.
That said, I think there is a genuine fundamental mind set difference between those muslims who have been brought up and who genuinely believe that there cannot be a counter to anything said in the quran. Since they hold all parts of quran as self evident and even over-riding the dictates of there own logical faculty, over time they get conditioned to merge 'correctness of logical reasoning' to what is found in quran. They do question but the questions are more referential rather than fundamental.
Sometimes it reminds me of the 'Bhakti' without the underlying tests. It is said that Wisdom without knowledge is possible but knowledge becomes useless without Bhakti. I interpret it as acquire knowledge, become wise by experience and then surrender the ego.
It is in the knowledge acquisition phase that they limit their domains but have the Bhakti part down pat
what did we conclude in the "does God exist?" thread? And does any one of us really know what happens to us after we die?
hey all I was saying was that the atheist pov should also be considered and I'm not saying that any one religion is right. All of them have their positives though.
what did we conclude in the "does God exist?" thread? And does any one of us really know what happens to us after we die?
hey all I was saying was that the atheist pov should also be considered and I'm not saying that any one religion is right. All of them have their positives though.
DO I HAVE TO REMIND YOU OF OUR CONCLUSION
AND OF OUR DECREE OF YOUR PROPHET?
it seems that the whole argument is revolving around Qur'an says disbeliever will be punished in hell and therefore Islam is not peaceful or something like that. Well, laws are made so that people do not do things which they shouldn't and if someone breaks the law then he gets some sort of punishment. So if we follow our friends' logic then let's call our countries' laws evil. God's made laws are evil but humans' mad laws are not, given that they both follow the same logic. What's up with the hypocrisy?
Atheists always forget one thing and that is: injustice is immoral!
Gosh my head would fall down if it weren’t attached. Did you leave anyone out except those who don’t believe in God.