Islam is not a religion of peace...Islam is ideological and believes that Islam is the best way for mankind and that everyone should live by it...much like the West does with neo liberalism...
Now to go into your points...no compulsion means just that...you nor no-one should be forced to take Islam as your faith...If your Christian then you are free to be Christian...
Ypur second verse is related to Islam expanding its state...When Isalm expands it takes over lands...these lands are given simple choices...surrender or you go to war...when you are ruled by Islam which is a mercy on makind then you pay the jizya a tax cos you are a citizen of the state...
Your other verses 2:91, 47:4 and 8:65 are related to war and jihad...During war you are required tio kill the enemy...to strike off their heads...lol i guess other armies are told to be nice to the opposition eh?...
9:5 is about apostacy and yeah thats true...if you leave Islam then your punishment is death...
If your trying to show contradictions your doing a terrible job...
Islam is not a religion of peace...Islam is ideological and believes that Islam is the best way for mankind and that everyone should live by it...much like the West does with neo liberalism...
Now to go into your points...no compulsion means just that...you nor no-one should be forced to take Islam as your faith...If your Christian then you are free to be Christian...
Ypur second verse is related to Islam expanding its state...When Isalm expands it takes over lands...these lands are given simple choices...surrender or you go to war...when you are ruled by Islam which is a mercy on makind then you pay the jizya a tax cos you are a citizen of the state...
Your other verses 2:91, 47:4 and 8:65 are related to war and jihad...During war you are required tio kill the enemy...to strike off their heads...lol i guess other armies are told to be nice to the opposition eh?...
9:5 is about apostacy and yeah thats true...if you leave Islam then your punishment is death...
If your trying to show contradictions your doing a terrible job...
Are you serious? You don`t see any contradiction here. what do you mean by compulsion? If no one is forced to convert to Islam and yet No one is allowed to leave Islam if one does leave one has to die.
Compulsion related to people who arent Muslim...so you are a Christian your a Christian...your a Hindu your a Hindu...Islam doesnt force you to become Muslim...
Now an apostate is a different category of people isnt it...Your Muslim and you leave Islam and Islam has a punishment...
You've brought six verses and put them all together when they all relate to different scenarios...
Like i said if your trying to find contradictions your doing a bad job...
See this is the media which is got you into this misconcept about Islam, yes I do agree few Muslim Leader do believe but let me put it short and crispy. There is a very fine article by Islam Scholar Dr. Jamal Badawi, this is just an abridge of it.
The Qur’an has been preserved intact since its revelation and in the original language in which it was revealed. Next to the Qur’an is Hadith, sometimes used interchangeably with the term Sunnah. In the case of Hadith, due care must be given to the degree of authenticity of each hadith.
Surah Baqarah 2:256, There is no compulsion in religion. This is from the Quran, which clearly states than if someone willing to Leave Islam as a religion is free do so otherwise the above stated verse would contradict.
There is no single verse in the Qur’an which prescribes an earthly punishment for apostasy.
Then the apostate should be killed after the first instance of apostasy. As such there would be no opportunity to "again come to believe and again deny the truth, and thereafter grow stubborn in their denial of truth".
Furthermore, the fear of such assumed punishment may lead many to hypocrisy; by pretending to remain Muslims just to save their lives. In the final analysis, hypocrisy is a greater danger to the community than apostasy in itself. Hypocrites may implode the Muslim community from within. Evidence from Hadith
Is there any report of apostasy that took place during the lifetime of the Prophet?
What is the degree of authenticity of such report(s)?
The most authentic book of Hadith (Bukhari) reported by more than one reliable chain of narration (stronger isnad). The following includes a translation of the most central hadiths:
Jabir ibn `Abdullah narrated that a Bedouin pledged allegiance to the Apostle of Allah for Islam (i.e. accepted Islam) and then the Bedouin got fever whereupon he said to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) “cancel my pledge.” But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. He (the Bedouin) came to him (again) saying, “Cancel my pledge.” But the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) refused. Then he (the Bedouin) left (Medina). Allah’s Apostle said, "Madinah is like a pair of bellows (furnace): it expels its impurities and brightens and clear its good This proves that execution was not followed even by the Prophet.
It is abundantly clear that there is no conclusive evidence, indeed no evidence at all in the Qur’an to sustain the claim that the apostate should be killed on that sole ground of leaving the religion.
Now Hadeeth for compatibility of the above verse.
Conclusion
The preponderance of evidence from both the Qur’an and Sunnah indicates that there is no firm ground for the claim that apostasy is in itself a mandatory fixed punishment (hadd), namely capital punishment.
References to early capital punishment for apostasy were not due to apostasy itself, but rather other capital crimes that were coupled with it.
Now an apostate is a different category of people isnt it...Your Muslim and you leave Islam and Islam has a punishment...
You've brought six verses and put them all together when they all relate to different scenarios...
Like i said if your trying to find contradictions your doing a bad job...
Why did Muslims forced the non-muslims to pay more in taxes compare to their muslim fellow citizens? Is not it amount to forcing people to convert to islam? that is compulsion. Once you are muslim you can not leave islam coz you would loose you life. that seems slavery to me. one thing is clear now as to why most of the muslim population lives below poverty line coz they are not allowed to use their brains and exercise their free will and question the athority, be it religious or rulers, why can not a free human being do what he/she thinks is good for him/her without the FEAR of loosing his life.
Yo Wasim...
With all due respect to the above...apostasy and its punishment is a pretty clear cut issue mate...All Four Schools of Thought said the punishment is death...Its a consensus view from the classical scholars...
This rule doesnt apply if the person is mental or forced to convert under duress...They all agree on punishment except Abu Hanifa who says women should be imprisoned...otherwise in all other cases all four scholars say the penalty is death...
So stop apologising for your faith my friend...and searching for scholars who try and appease the West with a censored version of Islam...
Cher...
Now you are just being silly...Muslims payed Zakat and you payed Jizya...just like any tax it is means rated so your assertion that as a non Muslims you pay more tax needs basis which you dont have...Within any society citizens of the society are paid tax and how much they pay is down to their income...so compulsion...hardly...if you dont like it leave it...
And as for the rules for a Muslim in a state...they have to abide by them or there are consequences...its judged as treason if they apostasise and there are consequences...
And as for our ridiculous assertions that Muslims live below the poverty line becuase of Islam...we ruled for 1400yrs thank you...our state ruled from the South of France upto China...its when we started producing crap scholars and moving away from Islam that we got weak and eventually lost us our state...
Your not stupid...strong belief is equal to a strong state...when Muslims went wayward we lost our state...
Yo Wasim...
With all due respect to the above...apostasy and its punishment is a pretty clear cut issue mate...All Four Schools of Thought said the punishment is death...Its a consensus view from the classical scholars...
This rule doesnt apply if the person is mental or forced to convert under duress...They all agree on punishment except Abu Hanifa who says women should be imprisoned...otherwise in all other cases all four scholars say the penalty is death...
So stop apologising for your faith my friend...and searching for scholars who try and appease the West with a censored version of Islam...
Try again...
Prove it to me with the Quran and the Hadith mate, and stop making our religion merciless. Fine i dont believe whether he appeases the me or not, nor do I believe in 4 school of thoughts. I only believe in Quran and Sunnah. Its availbale right there, and please stop accusing these are good scholars.
Btw, i have done enough research on this topic of apostacy, i do agree they are osme circumstance, but overall its says
No compulsion in religion.
What it says is , at that time people used to convert to Islam and as you can see and apostacy, was not proved in the lifetime of Prophet and they are couple of explanations for it.
Btw, imagine in this era, we are born as Muslims, unlike earlier era during the time of Prophet, and Islam as a religon is abhorred by this Muslim and he leaves Islam.
What about compulsion in religion that time.
Know the conditions of Apostacy, Now suppose I dont like Islam will you kill me what about No compulsion in religion that time.
Please do think from a broader mind.
i have very good sikh friend couple, now and that is all that matters to me.
u call this dialog what u wrote?
injustice anywhere is a threat to justice every where, be it with one group of people or another....
i have read the excerpts in translation, from Guru Granth Sahib in my class on world religions,
& i think the first things we are taught there is being humble and fair.
And i dont make my religion merciless…thats Allahs ruling and if you feel that his deen is merciless then take it up with him…
And the four main schools of thought back it up…and being the four main scholars naturally they back it up with Quran and Sunnah…
Maybe your scholar is a decent scholar but what do you base trust on…the four classical scholars are seen as the best scholars…why choose this random scholars opinion over theirs…make sure your trust isnt based on the fact that this scholars views fit in with your own…
Again compulsion in religion isnt related to apostates…Compulsion of religion is related to those who are originally non Muslim…
And as for your hypothetical situations…lets keep it simple…only an Islamic state has a right to implement rules from Islam…and if you lived in a state and you decided you didnt want to be Muslim you would be punishable by death…thats what Islam says…
You ask me to think with a broader mind…surely Quran and Sunnah is as broad as i need to be…
Mate, some of the blokes here dont seem to use common sense. how is it possible to use 1500 hundred years old book to resolve issues we have in todays complex environment. stop pretending to be the superior being and accept the reality of the world and be part of it contribute to the global community.
Cos i believe that 1500yr old book to be the word of god and applicable regardless of time and place...
human beings opinion changes as many times as i change my shirt...Gods opinion doesnt change its fixed...human being is fallible and capable of mistakes...God isnt...
You following the laws of man seems to lack common sense...you basing your values on society created based on mans wants and needs seems to lack common sense...
Like i said...i never was Muslim but i was convinced that this is the word of God...so using common sense i became Muslim and using common sense i understand everything that comes from him to be correct...
human beings opinion changes as many times as i change my shirt...Gods opinion doesnt change its fixed...human being is fallible and capable of mistakes...God isnt...
You following the laws of man seems to lack common sense...you basing your values on society created based on mans wants and needs seems to lack common sense...
Like i said...i never was Muslim but i was convinced that this is the word of God...so using common sense i became Muslim and using common sense i understand everything that comes from him to be correct...
Thast what i asking you dont give me any references of your own, please prove me wrong from Quran and Hadith, these are my benchmarks.
Allaah is told No compulsion in religion.
Scholars have commented these verses where later abrogated. But the point stops when there is no compulsion in religion.
I have even provided a you with reference with the hadith.
Problem is get the references, now the reasoning you are providing is nothing but your own words, man is fallible, man is this.
I have given you a chance to provide me with Quran and Sunnah. Yes i do agree there is a hadith of Abu Bakr, but there is even this hadith of Prophet so let us look at the situation.
I agree with you, i dont deny with some points but with this reasoning you give us a chance for Islam being a merciless religion.
Allaah is told, human being is got free will, now can you deny that. Allaah in Surah Yousuf :99 If Allaah wanted i would make everyone a believer on this earth.
So a believer is a Momin, so all this are from the Holy Quran. But I dont wont to argue on this topic coz I believe our Aqeedah should be strong, the ruling we might differ.
Did you read the link mate...Full of ayat and hadeeth...and to top it off the four scholars had a consensus on the issue of apostasy being punishable by death...ikhtilaaaf really isnt an issue regarding this subject...
You havent really proved me wrong yet you want me to do that for you...Iv provided evidence showing that apostasy is a crime punishable by death...
What i advise you to do is to read the Quranic verse...The no compulsion thing is related to non Muslims...and the evidence i have presented shows that the apostate is in a different category to any normal Kaffir and is to be punished accordingly...
Id like you to prove to me that Allah was referring to the apostate in his verse about no compulsion in the Deen...
Prove that to me and you have an argument cos there is a clear distinction between the two in relation to Quran and Hadeeth...
Stop misusing the No Compulsion ayah...your being like Cher...using ayah to suit your own views...
Its a consensus view mate...Hanifa, Shafi, Malik and Hanbal have spoken...are you going to disagree with Islams best scholars...theres no ikhtilaaf bro...this is as clear cut
I think the most teenage pregnencies happen in USA where it is against the law, should this be pinned on American values or Chrsitian values. Honor killings don't happen in Christian countries because women there give everyone a free ride so their really is no honor to speak of Sir. Should we pin the actions of Gay priests, child molesting priests and rapist priests on Christian values or country values? In USA if you lack insurance Doctors will refuse to treat you. People of the most humane profession display this lack of humanity. Are these Chrsitian values or American values. Illness and Life are aslo a profitable business. Lets see how far your courage goes now. Are you ready to go hand in hand with me now. I will take you as far as you are willing to go.
Thanks US Resident. Certainly, I agree with you that honour killings occur within the context of the larger Muslim culture rather than being precepts of Islam itself. But then, the question of exactly what defines " Islam " is a hot topic of debate amongst muslims themselves, isn't it? From an outsider's perspective, muslim is as muslim does. Tring to distance "real" Islam from muslim cultural practices is a clever tactic, but really in the end it is just an empty gesture - those individuals who commit these atrocities, just like the jihadist murderers who kill innocents with bombs, surely believe that their interpretation of muslim doctrines legitimates (indeed, requires) their actions.
So exactly what difference does it make? None at all. Muslim is as muslim does.
I don't understand the western cultural parallels you chose. Sure, I'm not happy about the rate of teenage pregnancies in some western countries. However, this rate tends to be primarily associated with socio-economic and other demographic factors in those countries, not religious ones. There are many western & other countries who have very low rates of teenage pregnancy.
Your insulting (and ignorant) allusion to western women "giving everyone a free ride" exposes your prejudices; actually, western women have the freedom to choose the partners they want in western societies - they don't need to give anyone a free ride at all. Whereas in muslim countries women have precious little choice, they will be stuck with a controlling domineering husband who believes that it's his god-given right to control his wife. I have some experience of this actually, I have visited muslim countries and spoken to people there, I have seen these things in practice.
I am not a Christian and I detest Christian hypocrisy as much as I detest it in Islam, so your Christian references miss the mark completely. And yes, I believe that we should indeed pin the blame for the shortcomings of christian clerics on christianity as a whole; in the sense that so-called "ordinary christian people" should accept the criticism that their faith is being hijacked by these wicked people, and therefore it's incumbent on " ordinary christians " to acknowledge these things and to purge them from their midst. And to their credit, they do acknowledge these things, and they are attempting to eradicate these things and to hold the perpetrators accountable; which is a damn sight more than muslims do about the (far more serious) crimes committed by muslims - again, we're talking about the murder of innocent people legitimated by muslim cultural values and doctrines.
Do you deny that respected muslim clerics support, promote and encourage acts of "Jihad" (my translation - MURDER) against westerners?
Which religion besides Islam contains the contemptible concepts of fatwa and jihad? You can argue all you like about the semantics of these words. The fatwa I'm talking about is the kind issued against Salman Rushdie for publishing a book deemed blasphemous - apparently it's ok to kill people who offend your religious sensibilities - very civilised behaviour.
Why don't you try answering my questions instead of defending yourself by attacking the west? What's the point of that? We are not suicide bombing buses, schools, restaurants in muslim countries. We are not issuing fatwas against muslim cartoonists or authors for saying insulting things. What gives muslims the right to behave in such an abominable way ?
The arrogance and cowardice of the muslim world is apparent in its refusal to acknowledge the evil in its midst.
[QUOTE]
The arrogance and cowardice of the muslim world is apparent in its refusal to acknowledge the evil in its midst.
[/QUOTE]
Certainly things which are wrong should be accepted, but the western world or the media, should not quote this as it is a part of Islam, but it is some region.
Again - Islam is as Islam does. From the perspective of the non-muslim world (5 billion of us) muslims are perpetrating atrocities. Whether they are "true" muslims or "fraudulent" muslims makes precious little difference to us - they emerge from your communities and they identify themselves as muslims; what's more, respected leaders within your communities support their actions, and very little is said against them. That's my point.
Now if this is the perception of the west, and if you dont open your eyes without research then its your mistake entirely. But you have to know what its all about Muslims i have told you its a economic, political and social distress in the Muslims states.
You dont find this problem in the Gulf countries, in Malaysia you have to think rationally. Well in that case can I call all the western countries as open merciless humans in the face of Satan.
So the problems with the westerners is, if something wrong then they say America is wrong or UK is wrong. But with the Muslims, they dont say its specifically any country. Why this double standards, by the Westerners. Well, if your a rationaly guy then you have to do some research.:)
You dont find this problem in the Gulf countries, in Malaysia you have to think rationally. Well in that case can I call all the western countries as open merciless humans in the face of Satan.
So the problems with the westerners is, if something wrong then they say America is wrong or UK is wrong. But with the Muslims, they dont say its specifically any country. Why this double standards, by the Westerners. Well, if your a rationaly guy then you have to do some research.:)
I'm aware of economic, social and political stress in the muslim states. There are similar (even greater) stresses on some non-muslim countries - why don't they commit similar atrocities?
I am not saying that all muslims are murderers and extremists - I am saying that some muslims are murderers and extremists, and they appear to have the support of a great proportion of " ordinary " muslims.
Yep, I will acknowledge that the majority of extremists seem to originate in certain middle eastern countries; however it's not true to say that there is no muslim extremism elsewhere - witness Bali. And the most recent terrorist attacks in the UK appear to have come from the local muslim community.
So yes it is a muslim thing rather than a country thing.
I've answered your points, at least I've tried to - but you haven't answered mine. Why do muslims not attempt to eradicate extremism from amongst their number?
Tell me then whats happening in Nepal, how about african countries. Recently south africa there was a problem as they have to host the upcoming FIFA world cup.
What about the American Blacks and the behaviour of whites towards them. How come you miss out all of this.
Extremism.
What about Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, George Bush is that not extremism.
You keep toggling with your own words, as usual, it wont happen if your truthful and sift through meticulously.
No, look at the problems existing in middle easten countries.
Again get the proof if your truthful, and let them stand in front of the whole public thast not happening. But only maligning in the name of Muslims, well in the middle eastern countries be specific when you are arguing.
Middle easter countries.
Lebanon - They have both muslims and maronite christians, in hezbollah.
Syria - Its the same consists of both Muslims and Christians.
Palestine - I am sorry if you tell me they are extremists here, then you should have the same say for Israel.
Well in that case George Washington the first president fo US is a terrorist.
Let me tell you buddy, i have answered this question in this thread. We dont encourage extremism, and a true Muslim believer, never can. Anyways read the thread below. http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=228164
Nepal, South Africa etc have their troubles - but I am specifically talking about extremist violence by individuals acting to kill non-muslims under the banner of Islam. That's specifically what I'm talking about.
Yes, I'm completely aware of the demographics of the middle-eastern countries you named - my family originates from Lebanon, although I live in the west. I know at least as much as you know. What's your point? That there are muslims as well as Christians living in those countries? Sure.
But the terrorists who attack innocent civilians identify themselves as muslim, even if you don't.
Read the quote below - I suppose you will say that this cleric is not a true muslim then?
Cleric supports targeting children
By Rajeev Syal
(Filed: 05/09/2004)
An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.
Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule.
In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Mohammed said: "If an Iraqi Muslim carried out an attack like that in Britain, it would be justified because Britain has carried out acts of terrorism in Iraq. "