Nepal, South Africa etc have their troubles - but I am specifically talking about extremist violence by individuals acting to kill non-muslims under the banner of Islam. That's specifically what I'm talking about.
Forget it there is no use to argue with a guy like you, I am out of it, coz i find it baseless arguing with you. Coz i want answers from you. Coz this topics have been covered and i have turned a deaf ear.
I am just waiting for 9 points from your side for peach and harmony in this world. Just answer, that will be enough for me.
Please do answer regarding the thread, did u click it and did u read it. You dont coz your scared, comment right there. Anyways USR, wil deal with this topic better.
But the terrorists who attack innocent civilians identify themselves as muslim, even if you don't.
Did you read my article please do it. Enough for you is that answers.
Well this topic are endless I will get some other reference, and you will get reference to support your point, so its pointless.
Give me references does Quran promote civilian killing, suicide bombing.
Sorry, I´m not playing your childish game of making up points.
I´m disappointed that you´re unwilling to face up to the questions I´m asking you. I answered the points you raised in each post.
Islam will never be in harmony with the other 5,000,000,000 human beings on this planet until it matures as a faith, and acknowledges and attends to its shortcomings. The Christian church has been made to do this in the west, fortunately, because of the separation of church and state, democratisation, and embracing humanitarian values; which are at odds with Islam.
Does the Quran promote civilian killing etc? Indirectly, yes.
It contains suras which COULD BE INTERPRETED THAT WAY. Which encourage violence against non-muslims in certain situations. You are aware of these of course. As to the true meaning & significance of these scriptures, the fact that they may not in fact be exhortations to extremist violence, well that´s all very well, but the problem is that although you may interpret the sura to mean one thing, an extremist will interpret it another way - and will feel compelled to act.
Of course the bible contains similar ambiguous verses, which have been interpreted in various ways by various groups.
That's my whole point - "good" muslims, those who interpret the ambiguous suras "correctly" as you might have it, should be acting against "bad" muslims - the extremist factions and those who nurture them.
HumanLikeYou, given that you're an expert when it comes to Islam. Could you please make reference to a few ahadiths and verses from that Quran that legitimize honour killings?
I don't seem to be buying your Muslim is what Muslim does argument. There are many who don't know a thing about Islam, yet somehow try to integrate the twisted cultural practices and call it Islam. The honour killings I've heard of so far did not explicitly state that they were carried out in the name of Islam.
Cher, I hope your comment about my inquiry in regards honour killing wasn't tied to Islam, as there's really no basis of it in Islam.
I feel many of you go a little too far when it comes to the blind hatred of Islam. It almost feels as though anything and everything that a Muslim does is somehow tied to Islam or many of you feel must be tied to Islam, so that you folks could have a go at Islam.
There are so many other individuals committing all sorts of wrong throughout the world, yet most of us would rather rebuke them for their vices than to drag and abuse their religion.
Does the Quran promote civilian killing etc? Indirectly, yes.
It contains suras which COULD BE INTERPRETED THAT WAY. Which encourage violence against non-muslims in certain situations. You are aware of these of course. As to the true meaning & significance of these scriptures, the fact that they may not in fact be exhortations to extremist violence, well that´s all very well, but the problem is that although you may interpret the sura to mean one thing, an extremist will interpret it another way - and will feel compelled to act.
Of course the bible contains similar ambiguous verses, which have been interpreted in various ways by various groups.
That's my whole point - "good" muslims, those who interpret the ambiguous suras "correctly" as you might have it, should be acting against "bad" muslims - the extremist factions and those who nurture them.
But they're not.
Seriously, you seem to only have one agenda of making baseless accusations. Only an imbecile would interpret verses in a manner, so that could be misused to the extent where it would even remotely suggest that it's alright to kill innocent people.
And there *are *imbeciles who are doing exactly that, so the accusation is not at all baseless. Surely you're not ignorant of the fact that there are extremist factions within Islam who do interpret the scriptures that way?
My essential point is - muslim extremism exists, and muslims are not doing much about it.
HumanLikeYou, extremist factions likely have their own agenda. I'm sure they are aware of the rulings and consequences.
I see it more like brainwashing. Seriously, only an imbecile would take verses out of the context to such an extent. One cannot just pick out a verse and twist it and interpret it in a manner he/she deems fit. You must read the verses surrounding that particular verse, as well as the tafsir must be referred to.
Yes, Muslim extrmists exist. Tell me what is it that we could do aside from correcting such extremists?
[QUOTE=] Btw, I want you to prove me, that there is no God at all, go ahead and prove me.
[/quote]
These words I have taken from another thread. When someone makes such challenges… Btw, I want you to prove me, that there is no God at all, go ahead and prove me.…Courtesy..yo_wasim……
a question arises, if the person is ready to accept new thoughts, information etc. Is his mind open for new ideas?
Or he is bound to roam around a proper mind set?
Off course it is quite difficult to prove if there is no God, but usually we prove that my God (or faith) is correct and the real one than yours.
I am not very sure about the existence of God but I am dead sure that the Gods which different communities have created for different reasons and mostly out of fears……do not exist.
And usually we make heavy claims on behalf of God, with proofs from our religious scriptures, as if we are an authority over God……This I can never understand.
Human species have a thinking process given by nature (or by God) and could we create God if we had no thinking process?
Your welcome. Any muslims here who think they don't know what Islam is? I think you said it the other way around. It's a hot topic among non-muslims. Non-muslims think the enemies they have created represent Islam. When Russians were the enemies communism was detested.
So exactly what difference does it make? None at all. Muslim is as muslim does.
So based on this logic Sir, then a Chrsitian should be as a Chrsitian does. Hitler killed 6 million jews. A christian is as a christian does. You will not be able to find any muslim leader who killed so many people. Hindu's burn their wives in the ritual of Satti. So a hindu is as a hindu does. Sharon massacred innocent civilians at Sabra Shatila, so a Jew is as a Jew does. I think by your logic everyone in the world is condemned.
Your insulting (and ignorant) allusion to western women "giving everyone a free ride" exposes your prejudices; actually, western women have the freedom to choose the partners they want in western societies - they don't need to give anyone a free ride at all. Whereas in muslim countries women have precious little choice, they will be stuck with a controlling domineering husband who believes that it's his god-given right to control his wife. I have some experience of this actually, I have visited muslim countries and spoken to people there, I have seen these things in practice.
And do you view teenage pregnancies as right? Should they happen at all out of wedlock. Half the American nation is born out of wedlock. A ******* nation. I do not hate Americans or the people who live here however there are certain things that are so out of place here that completely bar them from giving lectures of morals. Btw, where do you reside and what is your religion? Would help me in refuting your statements. For the bold text, I think you've glanced over the fact that the freedom to choose is what makes them give free rides.
Lets compare the everyday life of a muslim woman with the man as the head of the household compared to western women. Western women end up working to contribute the monetary needs of the household. Muslim sit home and enjoy while the husband takes care of that. Western women spend much of their time away from their children because of work and miss valuable time that can be spent in upbringing their children according to the way and values they approve of. Instead day care centers and baby sitters form the values of the children. The children develop little closeness to their mothers as they have to schedule time for their children. Muslim women get the opportunity to instill the values they want in their children from the very beginning. They get to spend more quality time with their children because they are available for them. They develop more closeness to their children and the children do not mind turning to them in times of need because the mothers do not have to prove that they are their friends. Western dads have to double duty of taking care of house chores and work whereas Muslim husbands can concentrate of their role as the bread winner of the family. Western kids do not see either of their parents as head of the household and thus have no one to stop the buck when they are wrong doing whereas muslim households have ultimate authority of the father and he can step in with a vested authority. Western women encourage their children to reply on outside eating habits, which are causes of obesity and other social problems now in the western society whereas muslims kids do not indulge in this. This definitely helps economically. I can go on forever.
I will leave your squabbles with Christians for them to take care of.
Nothing to deny. Yes they can legislate Jihad. Did you bother to mention the reasons why they would do so. USA has been going to war after war. They encourage their soldiers to kill enemies by hook or crook. Muslims clerics have a right to instruct muslims to deal with their enemies as well. Leave the muslims alone and let them live in peace. Leave our lands, why do you care? Your only getting blood out of it, then why don't you leave us to our own fate. If non-muslims were not in muslims lands there would not nothing to conduct Jihad against.
Have you ever read Satanic verses? If you had I think your perspective would be different. Rushdie spared no one, whites, hindus, muslims every one.
I agree the tactics of suicide bombing is not justified. However non-muslims countries especially western are commiting genocide and homicide on a much larer scalre. These suicide bombings are very small acts compared to what else is happening. What gave the right for non-muslim countries to kill millions of people in the two world wars? If you add up all the poeple killed in muslim history it would still not add up to the number of people killed by non-muslims in just one world war.
I don't think I ever refused that we have problems however we are not the only ones. Its just that the limelight is on us thesedays as it has been on russians, chinese, japanese, germans etc in the past. Yes there is corruption, which is why we have been calling people to come back to the teachings of Islam because it helps fight against corruption and restores moral values. If people truly start following Islam there would be no more suicide bombings, honor killings, other issues. The point being these problems do not exits because we have Islam they exist because we do not have Islam.
Not at all. I don't defend Hitler's actions, nor Sharon's. Do you notice that the west fought a war against Hitler? We don't tolerate extremism and terrorism within our communities.
Understand - all muslims are NOT culpable for the evils committed by muslim extremists. I never said that. Most muslims are decent, law-abiding people. However, most muslims ARE guilty of saying and doing almost nothing to criticise extremism, to discourage it, to eradicate it. Why do muslims tolerate extremism? And defend it also? You yourself provide the answer right here:
Your true colours are showing. Killing of innocent civilians - including women and children - in office buildings and restaurants and nightclubs and subways and buses - is this "dealing to your enemies" ? No, it's wickedness, pure and simple, the most cowardly form of murderous violence; and here you are defending it, and that *is my point. Most muslims (like yourself apparently) seem to believe believe that such acts of extremism are justified, and indeed seem almost *proud of them.
Hilarious. You live in the USA - exercise your democratic and constitutional rights - are happy to enjoy the freedoms and privileges and standard of living of other westerners - but also feel yourself to be morally superior and to have the right to heap scorn on western cultural values. Do we think it's better for women to be subjugated to men and to be straightjacketed into the role of wife and mother or to be permitted the freedom to make their own choices? What would you think if you were a woman? Why don't you ask the next woman you meet what she thinks?
For someone who lives in the US you seem remarkably ignorant of the diverse range of career/childrearing choices couples make within marriages in the west. Who says that all western women choose careers over motherhood and homemaking? Most women I know prioritise the other way around.
Now that's rich. One of the things western men most enjoy about being a dad is the additional time we get to spend with our kids, because we are just as involved in the childrearing process here; and unlike muslim men who think it's beneath their dignity to contribute to work around the house, many men are more than happy to do it. Women and men are equals, and some women are better in traditionally "male" roles than some men - and vice-versa. Whatever works for the person.
Western men and women have the freedom to play out the very roles you describe for muslim men and women - and MANY do. I come from a large family, by western standards. Every one of my 15 aunts chose to stay at home and take care of their children while they were young. They had the freedom to do so and the support of their husbands. So bang goes your stereotype. However muslim women do not have any freedom at all.
So is that your defense of the murderous fatwa issued against him? It's completely justified, is it? To kill a man because he says something which offends you.
Thanks for agreeing that there is no justification for suicide bombing - which totally contradicts what you said a few phrases earlier when you justified the actions of muslim clerics who encourage acts of violence against western civilians. Remember, we're talking about the cruel, cowardly *murder *of *women and children, *just to keep it in perspective. The deliberate targetting of utterly innocent civilian people.
Your reference to the second world war is a non-sequitur. The allied forces including the USA and the UK fought a necessary war against a fascist imperialist regime whose leader you yourself mentioned as an example of a non-muslim evildoer. How does that necessary war - in which the vast majority killed by allied forces were soldiers, not civilians - how does that compare to the deliberate, targetted killing of schoolchildren and housewives by muslim extremists? For the crime of being a westerner.
Well if that is the case - then why are "real" muslims not vehemently, angrily condemning the actions of extremists, and rejecting their muslim origins? Why are muslims not making it clear to extremist groups that they are not going to be tolerated? Because it seems to me that the opposite reaction occurs - when the WTC was attacked on 9/11, throngs of cheering muslims lined the streets in cities around the world. Celebrating the cowardly murder of thousands of innocent people!!! And the same reaction was witnessed after the attacks in Madrid and Bali and London!
So perhaps those that "do have Islam" should be sorting out those that "do not have Islam" according to your definition - instead of cheering them on.
Re: Do you ever wonder, where God is? God, no God, or Correct God (merged)
Dushwari, anjjan started a new thread, which I believe was in response to this thread and to yo_wasim in particular. I don't feel there's a need to open a new thread on a similar topic directed toward a certain individual. It wasn't a separate discussion, but part of this one.
Re: Do you ever wonder, where God is? God, no God, or Correct God (merged)
anjjan, if you feel it has killed your post then feel free to start another thread and I won't merge it. However, it'd be better if you don't make any reference to any member in particular.
Re: Do you ever wonder, where God is? God, no God, or Correct God (merged)
Thanks Sadiyahji, but in principal I do not go against the decisions of the mods.
If you kindly read the thread opening carefully…It was not at all in response to yo_wasim’ post. And I am not sure if there is any rule against it at the forum.
The war against Hitler was not to western credit. USA only joined in later. The initiative was not a western thought. Germany was not even your country or community to begin with so I think you cannot make a claim of not tolerating extremism or terrorism. Besides do you call the world war an act of terrorism. If war is an act of terrorism then by what means are all the wars fought by USA not terrorism.
This might be a point that I partially agree to however not on the same thought as yours. This is what I had said before, our problem is not having Islam its not having Islam thesedays. If we started practicing our religion as we should we would not be indulging into extremism and many other vices, which are plaguing the muslim world nowadays.
Sir, can you tell, which world reknowned muslim cleric has issued such an edict where to blow up buildings and resturants etc. Yup, I do deny these things are happening however no has been able to prove that the people who do these acts are muslims, if they are then where does their allegiance lie. If you would but notice these so-called Islamic groups do not have allegiance with any muslim country's government. They are all rebel groups. So if they have no loyalty to their country's ruling government then it is quite possible that their loyalty lies with our enemies who are pretending to be our friends. Sir, westerners do not blow buildings or burn buildings down in their own country because they love their country. On the same note people of other countries muslim or non-muslim who love their country do not indulge or promote such acts either. So how can you then associate traitors with us muslims who love their countries.
For someone who lives in the US you seem remarkably ignorant of the diverse range of career/childrearing choices couples make within marriages in the west. Who says that all western women choose careers over motherhood and homemaking? Most women I know prioritise the other way around.
Could you explain what democracy has to do with womens choices? Well if you compare the new generation of USA to that of the old I'm sure you will see the effect of this freedom is having on them unless you are deaf, blind and dumb. If there moral system was so high then half the American nation would not be a bastar$ nation. Half their population has been born out of wedlock. I live in the US which is why I can see these things not that I should not scorn them if I live in the US. Just because we live in US does not mean we should not eradicate the decadent moral culture here. On the same note you keep complaining muslims do nothing to curb extremism however when I talk about curbing declining moral values here it becomes a thorn in your side. Why the double standard. Are westerners exempt from purging themselves of the evils in their societies.
That is correct to some extent. Muslims males in most part think their only responsibility is to put bread on the table however to say they are not involved with their children is not true. Lets look at the results here, the majority of the muslim seniors are supported and looked after by their children whereas the majority of the senior folk here are dumped in nursing homes, retirement homes etc away from their loved ones. So when in muslims when we are most in need our children are there for us 100 times more than what a western child would do for their parents. This is also a fact you would observe if you pay close attention when you live in USA. Yes there are definitely exceptions however the norm is what I have stated. If the western parents had so many child rearing sacrifices I'm sure their children would be thankful and stick around when they are needed the most.
Good for your aunts. As I said there are exceptions. I hope that such values stay long in your family.
Have you ever read Satanic verses. I think he did not spare anyone whites, blacks, muslims, british, hindu's etc. So talking about the holocaust can be a crime in some countries however speaking against such a traitor to humanity is not a crime. Its like saying Bitc% is bad but Super Bitc% is a compliment.
Please refer to clerics who are accepted as an authority to the whole muslim world or some world class. Please do not equate roadside clerics with respected well known clerics, which even one of them you will not finding supporting these acts. And further do not equate freedom struggle with terrorism.
Agreed, it is not justified. When something is wrong I say its wrong, a spade is a spade. Now in Lebanon, Hezbollah killed all IDF soldiers with a very few civilian casualties. All casualties caused by Hezbollah to Israel are military casualties whereas all the casualties caused by Israel in Lebonan are civilian with few Hezbollah casualties. What do you say about this. Do you condemn it?
So perhaps those that "do have Islam" should be sorting out those that "do not have Islam" according to your definition - instead of cheering them on.
Yes they should be if they had enough power. You cannot do that with both hands tied behind your back and standing on one foot. What do you say about Maddy Albright who thought the thousands of child deaths in Iraq were worth it. If you are electing such leaders does it not speak for your moral already. Did westerners do something to fix such comments. Sir, every action has a reaction. Changes do not come overnight, governments are working to curb extremists however it should be acknowledged as well. There is a lot in western history to heap criticism on as well. If muslims should call a spade a spade then so should non-muslims. Root out non-muslim extremists in the government who want to see the muslim world fall. I'm sure if that happens you will see muslims celebrating that as well.