Re: Do you beleive in Darwinism or Intelligent Design ?
So are we to assume that the first human and the "modern age" human look the same, and shared the same characteristics? Aren't we told stories of how Hazar Nooh lived to be 900 years and people in certain times were really really tall? Maybe I am thinking of something completely different.
evolution happens in Aeons. in other words it takes millions of years. how is it possible to carry out such an experiment.? the only thing available to prove it are the fossils. but the fossil record is not perfect. one should be thankful that such a minute amount of fossils are available. its
Its interesting that we can belive things that span millions of years without any proof of authenticity but what happened just 1400 years ago is not regarded as reliable even though there is more than authentic historical proof of it.
So explain to me how the fossil remains prove evolution since that is your claim to evidence for evolution. Lets talk serious details. The fossil remains cannot even trace back human lineage beyond 50,000 years based on DNA analysis. Neaderthals which were thought to be our earlier ancestors and bore much more resemblance to man than apes have been proven to be a different species than us homo sapiens. This is all based on fossil talk. After all that is where the DNA for analysis comes from.
My claim based on the Quran is that humans were created as is though with anatomical differences but not a different species. We did not evolve gradually from one species into another, we were created as the species that we exist as today.
So are we to assume that the first human and the "modern age" human look the same, and shared the same characteristics? Aren't we told stories of how Hazar Nooh lived to be 900 years and people in certain times were really really tall? Maybe I am thinking of something completely different.
Yes there were anatomical differences. However that is not evolution.
Yes there were anatomical differences. However that is not evolution.
So humans were really tall back in the day and lived to be 900 years?
I perfectly understand. However the fact that people keep saying a theory is not a theory such as evolution is what is presenting it as a fact which it is not. It cannot be proved. Give me evidence.
Based on your posted definitions, what predictions have been made about evolution. What life form are we going to morph into next?
Gravity is no longer a theory. The fact we are sitting and typing on our keyboards is due to gravity keeping us in place. Zero gravity chambers exist today to prove gravity. Tell me what laboratory recreatable proof for evolution exists today. It is based on mere observations. Can you explain at what point and by what process we became human from apes? How our cerrebral development took such a massive leap? The variations in genetic markers for humans and apes do not indicate any commonality. Even DNA analysis has proven neaderthals were not the same species us humans because the genetic marker variations are quite different.
What you want is to go back in a time machine and see these creatures evoloving from a single cell into a human or other animal.. I dont have a time machine so I cant give you that kind of proof.
What I can say is that there is overwhelming evidence, that points to evolution being true. How you interpret that evidence is up to you, but most scientists will tell you that the evidence points to evolution being a reality...
Now consder this analogy, if there is overwhelming evidence that points to accused criminal having a commited a crime, we can safely assume that he did commit the crime even though we didnt see him commit that crime.
What I dont understand is why your so against evolution... Evolution doesnt contradict Islam...
Why dont you just accpet that there is overwhelmng evidence for evolution, regardless of whether you have seen it or not. And instead of trying to undermine the evidence, you consider whether your understanding and interpretation of Islam isnt the problem.
And I hope you understand that you ask for no evidence to support your religous beliefs, but are questioning evolution, which does provide it...
So humans were really tall back in the day and lived to be 900 years?
Obviously not everything in the Koran or the bible is meant to be taken literally.
What you want is to go back in a time machine and see these creatures evoloving from a single cell into a human or other animal.. I dont have a time machine so I cant give you that kind of proof.
What I can say is that there is overwhelming evidence, that points to evolution being true. How you interpret that evidence is up to you, but most scientists will tell you that the evidence points to evolution being a reality...
Now consder this analogy, if there is overwhelming evidence that points to accused criminal having a commited a crime, we can safely assume that he did commit the crime even though we didnt see him commit that crime.
What I dont understand is why your so against evolution... Evolution doesnt contradict Islam... Why dont you just accpet that there is overwhelmng evidence for evolution, regardless of whether you have seen it or not. And instead of trying to undermine the evidence, you consider whether your understanding and interpretation of Islam isnt the problem.
And I hope you understand that you ask for no evidence to support your religous beliefs, but are questioning evolution, which does provide it...
So when a muslim states that this universe is enough symbolic evidence of the existence of a creator, why is that hard to fathom?
I have been consistently hearing from you that there is evidence of evolution. Please provide a bullet list of items which you constitute as evidence that evolution is what brought about us humans. There isn't anything to discuss if the argument is that there is evidence yet it cannot be put in simple words for one to read.
The analogy of a criminal committing a crime is not the same. No one gets convicted on theoretical evidence. Rarely would that be the case. When a crime is committed there is a crime scene, there are other tangible proofs, victims, witnesses etc etc. So this is not a good analogy.
I am not against adaptation within a species and I even read the theory of evolution and Darwins books with quite interest. He had an amazing power of observation and was indeed a good naturalist. What I do not agree with is that this theory has been vouched as a substitute for God having involvement in the creation of humans. The belief that humans evolved from lower single cell organisms on their own, by chance when favorable conditions (natural selection) existed is fantasy.
My interpretation of Islam is spot on and there is no room for a chance human creation over millions of years. Its crystal clear in the Quran, God created us as we are today, as a human species, distinct from other existing species. There is no mention of other species which could have existed at the time which could have been similar to us in anatomy but of lesser intelligence. So this means that they could have existed or not and fossil remains of them today, that could be taken as proof of their existence but it does not mean they are our ancestors and the same species or that they transformed into another species called humans.
My religious beliefs state that Quran is a divinely revealed scripture and I believe that and believe in what it tells me. I always scrutinize the Quran and find it amazingly in coherence with scientific finds as time progresses. To me if sciencec contradicts the Quran, then the scientific theory is incorrect and later on it will change. Why it is so, because I believe the Quran is from a divine authority which cannot be wrong. Simple. I would say that verses in the Quran which discuss scientific phenomenon or facts sometimes need re-interpreted based on newer scientific data.
Tell me, has evolution stopped? Or are we still in the process of transforming into another species?
So humans were really tall back in the day and lived to be 900 years?
Do not know about exact hights however the Quran only states Prophet Noah AS to have lived longer than 900 years.
Your going around in circles… Let me address this point by point.
First, anything regarding faith is just that, its based on faith. You either believe it or you dont believe it.
So when a Muslim, Christian or Jew or even a Hindu says the Universe is enough symbolic evidence, thats perfectly fine for them, but its no based on science or fact, its based on faith, a willingness to believe. Religion is one big assumption.
Personally I didnt ask for evidence for the existance of God, or validation of Islamic belilef.. I believe because I want to believe, despite the lack of evidence. So looking for evidence for god in the Universe is irrelevant.
To discuss the evidence of evolution will take some more time… For now, suffice it to say that there is evidence for evolution in all related fields of evolution.
Here are good links for you to read through:
What is the evidence for evolution?
The Evolution Evidence Page
Its all here for you…
Once again you use the term THEORY in the wrong way. Go back and read the definition as its used by scientists and then continue.
The criminal analogy fits because like evolution, there is a overwhelming proponderance of evidence that points us in the direction guilt. In the case of evolution, there is a great deal of evidence which points in the direction of evolution being true.
And just like evolution, in the analogy, you didnt see the crime take place, but if you see the evidence, you can assume that the criminal did commit the crime. As with a crime, evolution also has evidence, there is tangible proof, genetic, anatomic etc. You just need to examine the evidence.
Just because you didnt see a single celled organism turn into a man, doesnt mean evolution is invalidated.
Evolution doesnt say anything about god. Its for you to come to terms with the place of God in all this. Many scientists have come to terms with evolution and God, its not that difficult. People make the mistake of undermining Evolution just because it somehow contradicts there religious belief. I think you should understand God within the context of science and evidence. If you are truly fiathful, you will come to terms with the two.
If there is evidence to the contrary, then your understanding of Islam is obviously not spot on. An intelectually honest person would understand that you cant shut yourself in by sticking to a static understanding of the universe.
And if Islam is truly universal in every sense, then it to should support all, and conform to all scientific evidence, after all its god that created the Universe for which we are finding evidence.
Science cant contradict the Koran, your right. But I dont say that Science is wrong, I say my understaniding of the relgiion is off.
There is no arguing with overwhelming evidence. Whether you like it or not, evolution is a recognized mechanism for how we came to be. If this science contradicts your religous beliefs, then its your beliefs that are off, not the science.
Re: Do you beleive in Darwinism or Intelligent Design ?
^^ Spot on Med911.
It's a shame potentially sensible individuals get trapped in religious dogma.
Again, you need to understand that a theory in science is not the same as the theory in mundane use. Please read this:
Theory and Fact | NCSE
A theory in science refers to somthing that is supported by overwhelming evidence and has not been disproven or shown to be anything other then true.
As for morphing into a life form, I dont know, lets wait a million years to find out.
The THEORY in Gravity, is refering to the scientific terminology as mentioned above… Again, the theory of gravity refers to somthing that has been shown to be true as by way of overwhelming evidence.
There is also a theory of Relativity, which itself has overwhelming evidence to lend it credance.
Again, read the evidence… Those observations lend credance to evolution. That is what science is afterall, making observations and drawing credible and knoweldgable conclusions.
Its not a matter of pinpointing when Human became modern humans, but that it happened. Perhaps someday we will know, because science is ever changing, science itself evolves.
Quote from the link “misconception is that scientific research provides proof in the sense of attaining the absolute truth. Scientific knowledge is always tentative and subject to revision should new evidence come to light.”
All science says is that evolution is the most probable, infact its probably 100 percent because most if not all evidence points in that direction.
Scientists have much to answer, and how humans evolved, is an ongoing study. There are many hypothese on how it happened, and you can read about them if you so like.
Its a known fact that Chimps and humans genomes are almost identical, with a similarity in the 90’s. Chimps are infact the closest relatives of Humans.
Read this:
Chimps, Humans 96 Percent the Same, Gene Study Finds
Neanderthals split from the tree about a million years earlier, from a common ancestor to both Humans and Neanderthals.
repeated...
^^ Spot on Med911.
It's a shame potentially sensible individuals get trapped in religious dogma.
Yes.. Nothing wrong with believing in god, its a good thing most of the time... Problem is when you turn your religion in to mental cage and start living in denial of everything outside.
Dear USResident,
but i wanted to say at this moment is that you are ignorant of the theory of evolution even though you claim that you have read Darwin with interest. you dont have to go to a text like that; i have tried reading it and believe me it is a hard read with all those scientific names. your ignorance tells me that either you have not read it and are trying to impress people here. that is an internet debtate ploy used since the internet forums were invented. ( "gee, you talk to me of economics. i have a PhD in it, though I Am not sure what supply or Demand is. or whether there is any difference between the Demand and the quantity demanded").
the other possiblity, and i hope that is correct, is that you have read some material to undesrtand the theory of evolution but have not understood it fully, or at all.
because theory of evolution is not about chance. it is about accumulating little change; change that comes through mutations, and is then retained because it is favored by natural selection. it is favored by natural selection precisely because it gives greater survival chance to that species.
there are many examples available. the Bat Sonar, for example, is one such thing. we have never developed that because we have the eyes.but Bats do "see" through their Sonars. it gives them an idea of where their prey is. and whether that prey is either moving stationary.
look at the leaves of the plants grown in deserts. they have thick leaves so that water wont evaporate from them. and i think, you probably already know that, that deserts dont have much water. a plant that would conserve water would be able to survive far better than the one that does not. natural selection has favored that e.g. in Cactus.
Oh, and why do moths fly into fire and commit "suicide"? it is not because "God made them so". why would God make them do so? why is God so interested in the suicide of those moths?is he so cruel? or maybe there is another, better , explanation when seen through the eyes of evolution.
there are literally hundreds of other examples.
I am not saying that Natural selection is the only thing that would explain it. but it is much better than the "God does everything" argument.
I used to study at a university in the united states when they held a debate between a Christian scholar ( i cant remember his name) and Michael Shermer, the editor of the Skeptic Magazine. any fair judge would have assessed that Michael Shermer had clearly won the debate. it is probably because of that i still remember the name of Mr. Shermer while I can not remember the name of the other person.
I would also advise you to read "the blindwatchmaker" by Richard Dawkins. it will explain it to you in a much better way.
for the record, there is no "chance" in the theory of evolution. the second option also does not qualify as science. faithful's answer to anything is God. what is so scientific about that? have you ever seen a paper in which every question has the same answer? well, in theology it has.
depends on whether you think there is "chance" in "random" selection doesnt it?
So disappointing, I was expecting a better reply than this. I asked for points to discuss in your own words and I get links to read. See the belief in the divine becomes more and more fact as science progresses, this is the point your are missing. Many statements in the Quran that have been misinterpreted regarding scientific phenomenon are finding better and better explanations as science progresses and their meanings become more and more clearer. This reinforces my belief in God. I do not believe for the sake of having a belief. Its something only heart-felt.
You should also stop telling me to come to terms with something you cannot even explain when asked for a simple explanation. If you are convinced, of something, it means you understand it. So it should not have been difficuly for you to express it in a few simple bullet points and we could have had a better discussion. It seems you can only regurgitate that “There is overwhelming evidence of evolution of one species into another” yet you cannot exdplain to me how. I am not against any scientific finds but they haven’t found what they claim through the theory of evolution.
So will you actually post something really substantial to discuss or will your next post again be another, YOU ARE GOING IN CIRCLES … SCIENCE IS RIGHT AND YOUR BELIEFS ARE WRONG … THERE IS OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OF EVOLUTION … please quote from Darwins book “Origin of species” and lets have a real discussion or something genuine to discuss rather then telling me I am wrong and you are right.
^^ Spot on Med911.
It's a shame potentially sensible individuals get trapped in religious dogma.
Please do not piggy back on others posts.
So disappointing, I was expecting a better reply than this. I asked for points to discuss in your own words and I get links to read. See the belief in the divine becomes more and more fact as science progresses, this is the point your are missing. Many statements in the Quran that have been misinterpreted regarding scientific phenomenon are finding better and better explanations as science progresses and their meanings become more and more clearer. This reinforces my belief in God. I do not believe for the sake of having a belief. Its something only heart-felt.
You should also stop telling me to come to terms with something you cannot even explain when asked for a simple explanation. If you are convinced, of something, it means you understand it. So it should not have been difficuly for you to express it in a few simple bullet points and we could have had a better discussion. It seems you can only regurgitate that "There is overwhelming evidence of evolution of one species into another" yet you cannot exdplain to me how. I am not against any scientific finds but they haven't found what they claim through the theory of evolution.
So will you actually post something really substantial to discuss or will your next post again be another, YOU ARE GOING IN CIRCLES .... SCIENCE IS RIGHT AND YOUR BELIEFS ARE WRONG .... THERE IS OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE OF EVOLUTION .... please quote from Darwins book "Origin of species" and lets have a real discussion or something genuine to discuss rather then telling me I am wrong and you are right.
Sorry to dissapoint you then. I would spend more time debating each and every fine detail, but the simple fact is that everything I could tell you, has already been debated to death. Everything you could say to me is already been said by contless others. All you have to do is to read it.
There is nothing original about what your saying, im only trying to save both of us time by directing you to the relevant material.
I agree with all you say on the Koran. What im telling you is that evolution is one of those thing for which more and more evidence is being found, and if you truly honest and faithful, you will recognize this fact, and reconcile it with your religious belief.
I have expained it, but you dont want to understand. Your problem is not one of understanding, but one of denial. The facts are staring you in the face, but you deny it because it conflicts with your religous belief.
You like the many other religous people have to come to terms with the reality of evolution, instead of trying to undermine it. Facts are facts, whether you like it or not.
You refuse to actually do any of the work required in understanding the topic at hand. I have already given you the links, all you have to do is read them. If you dont want to actually do any reading, then why are you even debating at this point? GO AND READ! I gave you the links so you can discuss the points.
I said that you hve to understand the Koran within the context of science. If Science is showing evidence of something that is contrary to what you believe, then its not your religion thats wrong, and its not science thats wrong, its your understanding and interpretation that is wrong.
I am refering to archeologists and yes anthropologits also play a role, who else would provide the human remains for DNA analysis.
I am not rejecting evolution within a species or as someone else pointed out more accurately, adaptation. However there are no concrete facts about species evolving into other species. There are only concrete assumptions to the theories and they are accepted as fact based on faith in the theory. If this faith would not be extended to the assumptions the theories would have no legs to stand on as you say is the case with religious beliefs. None of the theories can be verified because there exists no framework to recreate them. So in either case, whether it be belief that God created the natural phenomenon which gave rise to this universe and us or that single cell organisms evolved into complex organisms such as us and other living beings, both require an element of faith at its grass roots because you cannot prove either at that level. And it may very well be that we see Gods handy work as evolution based on the time scale that we perceive things though for God it is instantaneous. So for us to achieve certains that God did for us may require millions or billions of years of human effort. Many people are unable fathom God acting as the catalyst power to form the universe. A catalyst which is instantaneous from our perspective. God doesn't work at human speed or time. If our basic constituents are from this planet, that is quite believable for me because again as a muslim I know Allah created humans from the soil of this earth, which obviously must contain the basic organisms that scientists claim to have evolve into complex organisms as humans. The difference being God has the power to mold those basic ingredients into a complex organism as us instantaneously, we just fail to acknowledge that, thinking that God cannot work faster than nature.
Ok, so lets see your evidence for the existance of god... Evolution at least has evidence to back it up, what do you base your belief in God?
Im going to demand of you the same proof of God that you ask of Science and evolution... Have you seen God, did you see god make the Universe?
You seem to be convinced, as you say you KNOW the facts regarding God, so now you show ME the evidence... And I dont want this look at the universe stuff, I want real proof, just like the proof you want for evolution.
depends on whether you think there is "chance" in "random" selection doesnt it?
Maybe there is and maybe there isnt... I would leave that for the theolgians to decide.