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Originally posted by Dhulfiqar: *
...thats what *ghairatmand men want.
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Just like the practise of honor killings, karo-kari etc.
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*Originally posted by LuxuryItem: *
Just like the practise of honor killings, karo-kari etc.
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karo-kari is barbaric and no Muslim would condone it.
So true!!! :k: 
I was in a concert last night. Me and my female friends were standing on the front where the whole crowd was. One thing I noticed there was when any guy was passing by, he made sure that his body didn’t touch mine but he didn’t care if it touched with the girls who were uncovered(didn’t wear hijab/scarf, etc). Also, some guys kept flirting with one of my friends who didn’t wear a dupatta on her head when I wasn’t there. When I came back the guys were being so quiet and so decent. 
Re: Re: Do the guys find this insulting?
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*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
why rape rate is phenominall there as compared to muslim countries.......
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Just because people don't speak up against rapes in muslim countries and prefer to hush things up for the sake of honour doesn't mean it doesn't happen there. The ones we get to hear about are a small percentage of the ones that actually occur.
Re: Re: Re: Do the guys find this insulting?
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*Originally posted by Femme Fatale: *
Just because people don't speak up against rapes in muslim countries and prefer to hush things up for the sake of honour doesn't mean it doesn't happen there. The ones we get to hear about are a small percentage of the ones that actually occur.
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there may be some unreported events...........but not to the extent to came up anyway near the western ratio........
Femme Fatale & bao bihari,
Fact is that we don't know rape/sexual assault statistics for a society like Pakistan. All else is conjecture and one could argue either way whether people (men/women/children) are safe from or exposed to crimes like rape and sexual assault.
It'd be very informative if someone could post the result from a study done by a reputable third-party.
my dear Dhulfi
a couple of my english friends have told me that to them one of the most exciting thing is seeing a woman fully covered head to toe.. cuzz there is the imagination to play with what she would look like..
So i do not believe that a covered up woman is going to be any safer or have more respect or be less bothered by the 'luchar' & 'Lafanga' type crowd.. or even by somewhat respectable looking guys. my starting point disproves of that fact.
As for thinking about sex 'X' times a day .. lol. that is simply not true .. not everyone is that randy... some people are not interested in it at all :P
It all depends on the individual .. and somewhat but not entirely on society ..
I have seen more respect for women in western guys eyes.. than I have in most of my highschool mates in Karachi.
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*Originally posted by blackzero: *
I have seen more respect for women in western guys eyes.. than I have in most of my highschool mates in Karachi.
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This might be a product of the separation of the sexes. You don't know someone except on a superficial level -- can't connect with them as human beings -- so you're just going to see them as objects. Certainly how I feel walking along in the bazaars in Karachi.
^
I didn't think you'd have segregation in Karachi
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a couple of my english friends have told me that to them one of the most exciting thing is seeing a woman fully covered head to toe.. cuzz there is the imagination to play with what she would look like..
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If a woman is ‘covering’ in an erotic way, making it more of a fashion statement than a covering, then yeah it can be a turn on, like some women who wear skin tight pants and short sleeved shirt and a head scarf to go with that, that's just wrong, it's not serving it's purpose.
But I don't see how a woman who is wearing a loose over dress/coat that does not hug her body and a scarf and veil to go with that is going to turn anyone on, yeah she might attract some unwanted attention because in a western society dressing modestly is a deviation from the norm.
I didn’t want to say this because this is not the religion forum but you’ve left me with no choice, God has said in his book the Koran that believing women should cover themselves as not to be molested, and that should be enough proof for you if you are a believer, God knows what’s best for us we don’t.
I’d rather follow and have my family follow that which God and his Messenger (sallallaho alayhe wassallam) have ordered us instead of following that, which is the societal norm, because unlike some people I don’t have any inferiority complexes and I don’t have to worry about not being accepted in society only because I choose to maintain my religious-cultural identity instead of assimilating into their corrupt way of life, if the non-Muslims can’t accept me for who I am and what I stand for it doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
I’ve seen it a lot amongst some Desis that they spend their whole lives aping others just to be accepted and called modern and forward thinking, and let me tell you I don’t think its cool it just makes them look like sour losers...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Do the guys find this insulting?
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*Originally posted by bao bihari: *
there may be some unreported events...........but not to the extent to came up anyway near the western ratio........
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'Some'??? You think majority of the raped women get to report it? Think again.
all right......10 times unreported events...even then the ratio is less......and that also when making such relationship without marriage is not prohibited......still such rate?.....
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*Originally posted by Dhulfiqar: *
^
I didn't think you'd have segregation in Karachi
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no it's not complete segregation. but there is a sort of ingrained social segregation. boys sit with boys girls sit with girls.
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*Originally posted by Dhulfiqar: *
If a woman is ‘covering’ in an erotic way, ..
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no mr dhulfi .. that is not what i said ...
they specifically mentioned the loose burqa type covering..
as i said .. it is down to the mentality of the person..
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*Originally posted by Dhulfiqar: *
Anyways I was talking about Brit born n bred guys like me, if I see a good-looking woman who is wearing revealing clothing naturally it makes my hormones go crazy and all guys my age feel the same way
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as i said it is down to the mentality of the person.. for i never had these lustful imaginings that it appears that you are going through.. or went through.
i guess i grew up in a house where the women were treated as equals and not like sexual objects to be lusted upon in perving fashion... and not everyone is blessed with similar homelife.
Guys don’t find it insulting nor does it insinuate a restriction of animal passions on our part…Hijab and covering up of a woman are required because they were ordained by Allah :swt:…
Even after being told to cover themselves and practice modesty in such strict terms, look at any Pakistani fashion magazine or movies, look where the women are…Almost naked…Just imagine if there was no restriction on clothing, what do you believe would have been happening right now? Even after such strict restrictions, women today dress immodestly with impunity…
Mamaof3, we live today in a world where even Salat, the most strictest, unchangeable and uncompromising tenet of Islam is viewed by Muslims as something which they can do or not do at their own whim…Is it any wonder that things like Hijab, modesty and shame are thrown out the window?
What would a person who doesn’t even pray Salat know the importance of covering up? If such an assiduous thing such as Salat become an arbitrary thing, is it any wonder that Muslim women resort to immodesty?
The Ashaba-e-Karam were titled the best among the best of people for their faith and following the Prophet :saw:, and they observed Hijab, so the person who brings his two cents in by saying that Hijab is not important, is obviously delusional. He believes he is better than the companions of the Holy Prophet who were standing shoulder to shoulder against the Kuffar with insurmountable odds with little regard to their lives…
Segregation was commanded, and those who follow the faith will practice it, no matter if what…The only bottom line is, do you intend to follow the command of Allah :swt: and Prophet :saw: or do you think you are wise in bringing your own two cents in?
Well, its certainly been an interesting discussion and I thank you all for your replies. I think that the extents to which modesty are followed depend upon where you live. And the amount of respect given to women also seems to be dependent on where you live. The Pakistani guys living there are free to ogle, leer at etc a woman wearing western clothing. No one will bat an eye if a man over there harrasses a woman in western clothing no matter how modest. In America, that simply doesnt happen - men are expected to respect women in all walks of life, at work, in the stores etc. And they can expect to be arrested should they harrass a woman in that way. If you want success for yourself in this country, you must accept women as full-fledged members of society in every way. Before having my children, I worked on Wall Street for a number of years in the field of technology and was a respected member of the professional community. Never did I get harrassed ogled etc and never did I dress inappropriately (in the "western" sense anyway). Its all a matter of what you can get away with I think. The guys in Pak would most definitely have to change their way of thinking, their behavior and their attitude if they lived in or visited a western society - otherwise quickly end up in the poor house or in jail!
To Lajawab, I never said that Hijab is not important. Dressing modestly IS important. But when taken to extremes, I think it IS insulting to both men and women.
As to the issue of rape. In America rapists are typically scum, rape is vigorously prosecuted and the victims are treated with the utmost of protection and care. Over there, the victims are shamed and blamed. I would think it impossible to accumulate statistics because I would imagine that the vast majority of rapes over there go unreported.
When you separate the sexes with such vigor, you are eliminating half of society from your social circle - how can you ever have a normal, decent relationship with a member of the opposite sex? It is inevitable that the relationship will be limited and stunted due to lack of knowledge and understanding of the "other half". So therefore, cover them up and hide them from the eyes of everyone but close relatives, keep them in the house and away from the general population. That is the norm over there, but I can't relate to that because I'm here and grew up in a very different type of society. That doesnt mean I'm immodest in dress or behavior. From some of the comments I've seen here, I think some of you watch too many hollywood movies and think that real life here is how hollywood portrays it. Movies and magazines rarely portray real life.
Anyway, the answer to my questions about this subject seem to be "it all depends on where you live"...
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*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
I think that the extents to which modesty are followed depend upon where you live. And the amount of respect given to women also seems to be dependent on where you live. In America, that simply doesnt happen - men are expected to respect women in all walks of life, at work, in the stores etc. And they can expect to be arrested should they harrass a woman in that way.
Anyway, the answer to my questions about this subject seem to be "it all depends on where you live"...
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Mamaof3, I disagree with all the above statements, having been raised in America myself, but I suppose everyone experiences things differently.
It has indeed been an interesting read. Thanks for the topic!
Of course you wouldn't be ogled at in the west...It's simply because women are objects for the fulfillment of desires...When you are hungry, you go to a fast food joint and get a burger, when you want money, you go to a bank for a loan, and when you want to fulfill your desire for sex, you go to some bar or club and pick up a chick...Who'd want to ogle at a burger or a Toyota Corolla? You see them around everyday...And to make matters worse, women are truly respected in magazines like Playboy, Hustler and Penthouse...
Look at it this way...Why is a Lamborghini or a Ferrari so expensive? Because they are rare and exotic cars, and they turn heads because of their rarity? Why is Gold or a Diamond more expensive than Iron? Because Gold and Diamonds are rare and hard to come by...Similarly the status of women in the west is that of a Iron, or any other cheap metal, while in our culture, the women is viewed as precious...
In the west women have come to synonymize the terms bitch, hoe, slut and booty as a praiseworthy title...Men who call the women such names are looked upon by the same women as praising them...Let a man call a woman a bitch in the streets of Pakistan and see what happens to him...
Women in our way of life are respected...They are not slapped around like 'hoes' and do not sleep around like so much burgers dispensing food for desires...How can you call this respectable? Its more as if you are confused or really haven't seen much...On the other hand you seem to think that modesty and segregation are disrespectful to women...
Coming back to my car analogy, who would care more for his car? A man who spends 450,000 dollars on a Ferrari or a guy who buys a 400 dollar 86 Accord...?
It's not a matter of where you are born or raised, it's where your priorities lie and where you get your priorities from...I have known people raised in Pakistan in good families become the worst of creatures and I have known people in the west with lousy family backgrounds become the best of people...It's all about priorities...
The modesty of a woman is her rarity...She loses that and she becomes little more than a second hand car which you see everyday on the roads...
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*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
Of course you wouldn't be ogled at in the west...It's simply because women are objects for the fulfillment of desires...When you are hungry, you go to a fast food joint and get a burger, when you want money, you go to a bank for a loan, and when you want to fulfill your desire for sex, you go to some bar or club and pick up a chick...Who'd want to ogle at a burger or a Toyota Corolla? You see them around everyday...And to make matters worse, women are truly respected in magazines like Playboy, Hustler and Penthouse...
Look at it this way...Why is a Lamborghini or a Ferrari so expensive? Because they are rare and exotic cars, and they turn heads because of their rarity? Why is Gold or a Diamond more expensive than Iron? Because Gold and Diamonds are rare and hard to come by...Similarly the status of women in the west is that of a Iron, or any other cheap metal, while in our culture, the women is viewed as precious...
In the west women have come to synonymize the terms bitch, hoe, slut and booty as a praiseworthy title...Men who call the women such names are looked upon by the same women as praising them...Let a man call a woman a bitch in the streets of Pakistan and see what happens to him...
Women in our way of life are respected...They are not slapped around like 'hoes' and do not sleep around like so much burgers dispensing food for desires...How can you call this respectable? Its more as if you are confused or really haven't seen much...On the other hand you seem to think that modesty and segregation are disrespectful to women...
Coming back to my car analogy, who would care more for his car? A man who spends 450,000 dollars on a Ferrari or a guy who buys a 400 dollar 86 Accord...?
It's not a matter of where you are born or raised, it's where your priorities lie and where you get your priorities from...I have known people raised in Pakistan in good families become the worst of creatures and I have known people in the west with lousy family backgrounds become the best of people...It's all about priorities...
The modesty of a woman is her rarity...She loses that and she becomes little more than a second hand car which you see everyday on the roads...
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lajwab apne bilkul lajawab kar diya, I agree with you 100%
To Lawajab, You think that women are objects for fulfullment of desire in the west, yet you go on to compare women with cars. Women are not posessions like cars, they are people just like you are a person. We are not posessions we do not have to be hidden away from the general population in order to keep us safe because men here know how to act in a civilized manner. I have yet to meet a woman such as you describe who "likes" to be called the names you mention - have you ever been to the west? If you have, you certainly have a knack for locating the seediest of places to meet women!
Yes, there are good people and bad people both men and women in any society and there are also modest and immodest women in any society. The vast majority of women are modest no matter where they live, its just a matter of degree. In the west, women dont cover their heads but they dont go out half naked either.
The discussion here was not intended as an invitation to bash women of the west. I have no problem with modesty, it is indeed a quality every woman should have. However, I see something wrong with a society where women have to be hidden away from the general population in order to keep them safe. If women have to be hidden away to keep them safe, then there must be something wrong with the general population. That means that the men of that general population have no ability to act in a responsible, civilized manner.