peace psyah,
if you're comparing homosexuality to bestiality then you must know the differences. regardless of whether the dog wants to hump a persons leg, it still cannot give informed consent as it doesn't have the mental capacity of a human, just like a child cannot give informed consent either even if the child is not forced at all. lets say a mentally retarded person gives consent, will that be valid? no, it will be rape. for these reasons, you cannot compare 2 adult homosexuals who have the mental capacity to know what they are doing meanwhile children and animals dont.
And yes there are still people that view bestiality as something not harmful but i strongly view it as abuse due to the nature of animal and lack of mental capability compared humans, and possible injury and transmission of disease in the animal. im unable to view homosexuality as harmful however as i have yet to see any harmful outcome due to this sexual orientation.this is my stance on homosexuality vs pedophilia vs bestiality.
peace psyah,
if you're comparing homosexuality to bestiality then you must know the differences. regardless of whether the dog wants to hump a persons leg, it still cannot give informed consent as it doesn't have the mental capacity of a human, just like a child cannot give informed consent either even if the child is not forced at all. lets say a mentally retarded person gives consent, will that be valid? no, it will be rape. for these reasons, you cannot compare 2 adult homosexuals who have the mental capacity to know what they are doing meanwhile children and animals dont.
And yes there are still people that view bestiality as something not harmful but i strongly view it as abuse due to the nature of animal and lack of mental capability compared humans. im unable to view homosexuality as harmful however as i have yet to see any harmful outcome due to this sexual orientation.this is my stance on homosexuality vs pedophilia vs bestiality.
No I wasn't actually ... I was showing that animals don't need to be subdued or groomed into sex - they are capable of doing it all themselves ... yet if it is recognised animals do not have the mental capacity of humans why is animal homosexuality used as an argument to support homosexuality?
You got it right this time ... they are animals ... we should not have sex with them and we should not take their example for homosexuality either - why?
Because they don't have the mental capacity that we have ... we know what we are doing ... they operate on urges ... as I was saying earlier.
You got it right this time ... they are animals ... we should not have sex with them and we should not take their example for homosexuality either - why?
Because they don't have the mental capacity that we have ... we know what we are doing ... they operate on urges ... as I was saying earlier.
humans also act on their urges, and sex is for pleasure in humans as well. religiously, you need to justify the the act of sex by using 'reproduction' as the excuse but we all know thats not why most of us have sex. the example of homosexuality in animals is not so we should copy them but that this behavior exists in other species, and exists in nature.
despite of whether it exists in animals or not, thats not the reason why humans should consider it normal or abnormal. i view it as normal act since it doesn't harm anyone and no one chooses to be that way. as far as i know, there are genetic, biological causes for ones homosexual orientation, something that you donot have any control over.
humans also act on their urges, and sex is for pleasure in humans as well. religiously, you need to justify the the act of sex by using 'reproduction' as the excuse but we all know thats not why most of us have sex. the example of homosexuality in animals is not so we should copy them but that this behavior exists in other species, and exists in nature.
despite of whether it exists in animals o.
no, if this was the case people would asked to stop doing it after couple conceive.
or right after birth. As a matter of fact islam tell men do it according to womens' physical changes.
As when she is nursing...(arab use to keep away) islam said dont.
or guys are ask to please their wife for a time it takes to pass 40 camels infront of a tent, before seeking his own pleasure.
Please enrol in slam 101.
humans also act on their urges, and sex is for pleasure in humans as well. religiously, you need to justify the the act of sex by using 'reproduction' as the excuse but we all know thats not why most of us have sex. the example of homosexuality in animals is not so we should copy them but that this behavior exists in other species, and exists in nature.
despite of whether it exists in animals or not, thats not the reason why humans should consider it normal or abnormal. i view it as normal act since it doesn't harm anyone and no one chooses to be that way. as far as i know, there are genetic, biological causes for ones homosexual orientation, something that you donot have any control over.
Peace bella88
I can agree with that ... But the whole point is just because it happens in nature is not a basis for concluding it is morally or philosophically right. Religion is a barrier here ... The fact is religion and ethics coincide on this matter. And my belief is that a true religion will always coincide with the greatest ethics ... Problem is these days we can't decide what is ethically right either because our norms are clouding our judgement.
As Monk rightly states religion has gone in to the matter deeper and sexual interaction does bring love into a relationship it can solve many problems too ... But the basis for sex is always procreation ... Also when people are most at ease they enjoy it more and optimise fertilisation too.
I can agree with that ... But the whole point is just because it happens in nature is not a basis for concluding it is morally or philosophically right. Religion is a barrier here ... The fact is religion and ethics coincide on this matter. And my belief is that a true religion will always coincide with the greatest ethics ... Problem is these days we can't decide what is ethically right either because our norms are clouding our judgement.
peace psyah,
but do you realize your religion may differ from someone elses? whether something is ethically right or wrong, thats a personal matter as long as it doesn't harm others. again, as we discussed earlier, you are 100% right in saying it's not ethically accepted in religion hence wrong according to your beliefs. not here to change your mind about what you should find ethical or unethical. point however is, when something doesn't harm another person, are you or anyone morally right from criminalizing or banning it?
I have not been arguing for the criminalising or banning of this … that is a state/law matter … But I can’t be blamed for voicing disdain or repulse to it … It is like asking someone to enjoy the smell of a toilet or something else that is dirty to most of us … some people like that sort of stuff … why should we remain quiet when all we want to say is “sodomy is disgusting”? Then someone comes along and says that is your opinion and tries to insinuate that our dislike for it is an argument to persecute people. If I see a person eat his snot/bogies I will not try to kill him - I will just get repulsed and advise him to be better than that. Same applies here …
… It is actually through the overt legalisation of homosexuality and the public mindset moulding that it is “fine” that the rest i.e. the majority of straight people are being forced to step around egg shells that this issue is coming to the fore and then we get blamed for being homophobic … I would like to stress again there is one who I love the most more than anyone and he is a man (SAW) so that hate argument is flawed as Muslims are proof that same gender love exists - it is just pure from filth and takes a different form from the one engendered in a relationship of marriage … it is specifically a dissent against the act itself …
For what reason are we called progressive if we can subdue our natural dislike for something and tell everyone it is okay if others are doing it? I would not want for others what I do not want for myself … Yes if they want to be treated fairly like any other human, given jobs like anyone else then yes I will treat them fairly … based on their merit of their fulfilment of the job description alone … I would not hire on quota and fix numbers - I would purely look at merit. I have been learning about early Christianity lately and a scholar from Yale … Dale Martin I think is a very knowledgeable and well constructed. He is openly gay … I don’t hold that against him when listening to his talks … however, interestingly I think there is a connection between his being gay and his area of interests … which revolve around slavery and sex … this is his page.
Peace psyah,
i completely agree with your point that you shouldn't be forced to like something you don't agree with. you have every right to not like a practice.
forexample, i hate the idea of polygamy and i personally think its somewhat immoral. but thats just my opinion, doesn't mean i need to gang up on someone whos in that relationship or to hate upon those who do it. i just simply dont like the idea nor do i think its something right. so i understand if you dont like something either. not trying to make everyone like the idea of homosexuality here. there are many things which i dont agree with or like in religious practices, but i defend everyone's right to practice them. my point was only to clarify that they donot cause any harm to society and that they are not diseased, nor do they choose to be this way. no one has to like homosexuality, just like no one has to like religious practices either if they donot believe in them. my posts were actually in response to some other posters such as Diwana have been posting quite homophobic views like equating homosexuality with criminal behaviors such as rape, murder, pedophilia.
The current problem of homosexuality tolerance is that of the picture that developed through time.
First it was considered wrong and was being treated, people who had it were quiet about it and wanted to be fixed
Then it became a choice matter but the taboo still persisted
Then to remove the taboo those who practiced this and those who were liberal wanted to spread the idea that it is natural and they have no control over it
Then it became an issue of fairness and equal opportunities and a push was made to alter mindsets regarding it
Now education is beginning to feature this as a normal for some people - effectively encouraging it to take root
Those who show a natural dislike to it are themselves demonised and called intolerant
This practice will proliferate - people do not talk about sexual orientation in heterosexuals, but the fact that homosexuals now have presence - they are defined by how they engage in sex and sex itself becomes an open discussion point ...
Children and young adults become aware of "sex" and sexual deviation
Taboos left right an centre are broken down
When everyone had one male parent and one female parent - the kids didn't ask why ... but when some kids start to have two male parents or two females parents then kids will start to wonder how that can be ...
The normal place for sex discussions is in certain mature circles outside the public limelight
By bringing homosexuality into a public sphere where children can access that information is going to cause a breakdown of innocence and give children information too early - heavy weights that they can't deal with.
A nurturing process could help mould children towards any direction - exposure to concepts are dangerous and lead to consequences.
The current problem of homosexuality tolerance is that of the picture that developed through time.
First it was considered wrong and was being treated, people who had it were quiet about it and wanted to be fixed
Then it became a choice matter but the taboo still persisted
Then to remove the taboo those who practiced this and those who were liberal wanted to spread the idea that it is natural and they have no control over it
Then it became an issue of fairness and equal opportunities and a push was made to alter mindsets regarding it
Now education is beginning to feature this as a normal for some people - effectively encouraging it to take root
Those who show a natural dislike to it are themselves demonised and called intolerant
This practice will proliferate - people do not talk about sexual orientation in heterosexuals, but the fact that homosexuals now have presence - they are defined by how they engage in sex and sex itself becomes an open discussion point ...
Children and young adults become aware of "sex" and sexual deviation
Taboos left right an centre are broken down
When everyone had one male parent and one female parent - the kids didn't ask why ... but when some kids start to have two male parents or two females parents then kids will start to wonder how that can be ...
The normal place for sex discussions is in certain mature circles outside the public limelight
By bringing homosexuality into a public sphere where children can access that information is going to cause a breakdown of innocence and give children information too early - heavy weights that they can't deal with.
A nurturing process could help mould children towards any direction - exposure to concepts are dangerous and lead to consequences.
there were alot of things which were taboo back in the day but are no longer taboo as we try to become more tolerant and humane. marriages between white and black were illegal, slavery was common, scientists and atheists were burnt at stake for blasphemy and heresy.
not liking homosexuality doesn't make you intolerant but being against their right to practice it does. just because kids see gay people doesn't mean they will become gay! it doesn't work like that. but now, those who are gay, feel like its easier to come out rather than hiding it forever and living as a straight person when thats not something they want to do. homosexuality is not something that can be 'treated', and even in the past, it wasn't exactly successful either. there is absolutely no recommended therapy to 'cure' homosexuality. No one can be 'moulded' to become gay. please don't fall for this ignorant propaganda. i support homosexuality 100%, yet i can never imagine becoming one, no way can i feel attracted to women the way i do for men. its just not possible. even though i believe for homosexuality to be a normal variant, it can never be normal for me. same goes for all straight people, they cannot become gay just because homosexuality is well tolerated and you see gays on tv all the time. if a child asks where babies come from, what should be the response? if the child is old enough to know what sex is, they can also know what homosexuality is. knowing about homosexuality is not going to harm their innocence anymore than knowing about heterosexual sex.
The fact is taboo lines are shifting I admit that ... some have shifted for the best and others not ... Humans tend to learn things the hard way ... but we tend to forget them after some centuries pass and end up learning them all over again ... Please proceed.
Like I said in other thread about cannibalism, consent is not the factor to make something right or wrong.
It is an absurd idea to even talk about consents from animals.
It means someone does not even know what is the meaning of a consent.
diwana please tell me why its okay to kill an animal to eat it but its not okay to beat up an animal? surely killing must be more painful. so why is there a law against animal abuse??
Why did you eat meat without getting consent from animal if you are so stuck on using "consent" as your argument to make bestiality wrong??? ;)
why is eating an animal and having sex with it the same thing in your mind? why is abuse and eating an animal different things?
why is there a law against cruelty to animals yet it's not a crime to kill an animal?
if eating an animal, and beating it is not the same thing, then neither is bestiality and eating it!
hopefully you understand it now.
What if there IS no abuse of animal or physical harm to it? Will that be OK?
You do know killing an animal is real 'abuse' and 'harm' to animal. Much worse than bestiality.
killing an animal is abuse, yet its allowed in most religions. why is that?
[quote]
Please accept bella, you had no argument bringing 'consent' factor in to the equation. :D
[/QUOTE]
please accept diwana, you are not making any sense here. sex between 2 consenting adults is normal, and comparing to rape and abuse is just plain ignorant.
your twisted pleasure logic is what makes no sense. according to you, no one should even be allowed to use birth control! thats your logic lol.
diwana, do you understand the concept of informed consent and willingness?
why is it that a child cannot give consent legally, even if they are willing?
i really hope you understand this concept.
killing an animal is abuse, yet its allowed in most religions. why is that?
please accept diwana, you are not making any sense here. sex between 2 consenting adults is normal, and comparing to rape and abuse is just plain ignorant.
your twisted pleasure logic is what makes no sense. according to you, no one should even be allowed to use birth control! thats your logic lol.
Becasue it is not an 'abuse', you said bestiality is abuse and I simply gave you something to counter both of your positions.
Are you for real so naive not getting what I have been saying so far?
No. Sex between two consenting adults can still be wrong.
However you come up using **consent **as an argument, you will be wrong.
*"Consent" cannot always be applied to make something right or wrong.
*
Bella! Cheating outside marriage can still be between two 'consenting' adults but still be wrong. get it???
And go ahead show me when I said no one should be allowed to use birth control?
I know you are desperate and kept accusing me of something which I never said.
