Division of Punjab

The division of Punjab was caused much of the sorrow and created these deep seated wounds between Punjabis on both sides of the border. Here is a good analsis of the the Radcliffe Award that divided the two between India and Pakistan:

Source: http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/archives_roll/2002_01-03/chester_partition/chester_partition.html

Analysis of the Boundary Decision
The Facts of the Award

The final boundary, known as the Radcliffe award, allotted some sixty-two percent of the area of undivided Punjab to India, with fifty-five percent of the population.15 The boundary ran from the border of Kashmir State south along the Ujh River, leaving one tehsil16 of Gurdaspur District to Pakistan and allotting the remainder to India. Where the Ujh met the Ravi River, the boundary followed the Ravi southwest, until it met the existing administrative line dividing Amritsar District from Lahore District. Radcliffe was careful to specify that the relevant administrative boundaries, not the course of the Ujh or the Ravi, constituted the new international boundary. The boundary then ran through Lahore District, along tehsil and village boundaries, leaving the district’s easternmost corner in India. When the Radcliffe boundary met the Ferozepore District line, it turned to follow the River Sutlej along the administrative boundary between Ferozepore and Montgomery Districts. The Radcliffe line ended where it met the border of Bahawalpur, a princely state whose ruler, like the Maharajah of Kashmir, had the choice of acceding to Pakistan or India.

The primary feature of this line was that it divided Amritsar, now in India, from Lahore, which went to Pakistan. By and large it followed major administrative divisions, although it did meander between villages in the Kasur region southeast of Lahore. The two most controversial elements of this line involved Gurdaspur and Ferozepore. Pakistani critics interpreted Radcliffe’s decision to grant most of Gurdaspur District to India as an attempt to provide India with a land link to Kashmir. As one element of the beginnings of the Kashmir conflict, this allegation remains controversial. It is worth noting that no all-weather road linked Kashmir and India in 1947; when the first Indo-Pakistani war began in late 1947, India airlifted troops and supplies into Kashmir rather than take an overland route. The other controversy was over Ferozepore’s allocation to India; this decision came as a surprise in the wake of early August leaks indicating that Radcliffe would allocate a section of Ferozepore to Pakistan.

In accordance with Mountbatten, Nehru, and Jinnah’s demands that he complete his work before August 15, Radcliffe submitted his award on August 12. By this time, Mountbatten had changed his mind (for reasons discussed below) and asked Radcliffe to delay the award until after August 15. Radcliffe refused, but Mountbatten had his way, choosing not to release the award until August 16, when he discussed it with the Indian and Pakistani leaders at a meeting in New Delhi. On August 17, the award was finally published.

Re: Division of Punjab

Good to see you back bro, I’ve always been a big fan of your posts
This is an interesting article as well.

Not only did British mismanagement leave a mess in the subcontinent, but you could attrribute many of the worlds current problems to poor British decisions in that era.
I’ve heard that Bangladesh was just as badly done by, a Bengali guy once told me that prior to partition Calcutta was majority muslim.

Re: Re: Division of Punjab

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by elahi: *

Good to see you back bro,,, I've always been a big fan of your posts
This is an interesting article as well.

Not only did British mismanagement leave a mess in the subcontinent, but you could attrribute many of the worlds current problems to poor British decisions in that era.
I've heard that Bangladesh was just as badly done by, a Bengali guy once told me that prior to partition Calcutta was majority muslim.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the good wishes. School always constrains my time here on gupshup but glad to be back.

I really think that the division of Punjab worked against Muslims, as it uprooted our East Punjabi kin particularly in Ferozepur, Jallandar areas. Although the casualties were extensive on both sides-- meaning Muslim and Hindu/Sikh..but to this son of West Punjabis, history will never forget the bloodied trains, the atrocities against our E. Punjabi brethern. By all accounts, by the time West Punjabis Muslims retaliated (cowardly act on its own) it was too little too late.

My aunt, who incidentally from Amritsar, born Sikh but Muslim presently talks about East Punjab deviod of Muslims. Even the Hindu Punjabis opted out in the form of Haryana. Punjab has been divided too many times by too many people...

Re: Re: Re: Division of Punjab

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
.....Punjab has been divided too many times by too many people...
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Thanks to all the stupidities of Punjabis! Especially Muslim Punjabis.

The writing about Punjab’s division was on the wall as of 1922 or precisely in Tribune Lahore. Muslims of Punjab and educated elite like Allama Iqbal never realized that death and destruction would soon descend on Punjab. They would rather talk about Turkey, and Undulas, Makka, and Baghdad.

Yet they were stupidly aloof about their own Punjabi homeland. No wonder UPietes called Punjabis as "Dhaggas" or oxen. Just like the cows chewing on garbage, Punjabi Muslaman relished the dung put out by the likes of Atta-Ullah-Shah Bukhari.

I know bunch of guppies will jump up and down about Master Tara Singh and his idiotic speech at the steps of Lahore Assembly Hall. Yet they will ignore the friendship of Giyani Kartar Singh, Sardar Bladev Singh, and Sardar Diyal Singh.

These ignoramus Punjabis would dwell on the hateful attitude of Sir Ganga Raam (the hospital guy) and ignore the wonderful lady from Punjab, Gulab Devi (the founder of another hospital).

During the 1940s, when the need for Punjabi Muslaman was to ensure harmony, they followed Mullahtic idiotics and created the fiasco of Shahid Ganj.

In 1940s East Punjab villages were calm in general while Punjabi Musalman following Mullahtics created anarchy in Tala-gung and Pindi regions by attacking Punjabi-Sikhs and Punjabi-Hindus.

We can not understand the bloody trains of 1947 without analyzing the Punjabi Muslaman and Punjabi Mullah from 1920 to 1946.

It is now time for Punjabi Muslaman to ask for forgiveness from Punjabi-Sikhs and Punjabi-Hindus, followed by concrete steps to show their sincerity.

p.s. RajputFury! Thanks for starting a good thread.

Most Pakistani Punjabis are even ashamed to speak Punjabi. The new generation have switched to Urdu.

Punjabis in US and UK dont teach their children Punjabi, but talk to them in Urdu.

I am surprised how a language spoken by 8% of people as mother tongue be the national language of the country. Prior to 71 Urdu was spoken by 3% of Pakistanis (Mother tongue)

What you guys are implying is that Punjabi is a BayGharat Qoom. I resent that.

:jhanda:

It’s only a handful of Matoos and Pitoos that are/were evil. Most Punjabis are good. Specially the ones living on the other side.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Thanks to all the stupidities of Punjabis! Especially Muslim Punjabis.

The writing about Punjab’s division was on the wall as of 1922 or precisely in Tribune Lahore. Muslims of Punjab and educated elite like Allama Iqbal never realized that death and destruction would soon descend on Punjab. They would rather talk about Turkey, and Undulas, Makka, and Baghdad. .
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Never before I have seen such a one sided secularist anti Muslman view by our expert on Punjab. Your whole argument can summarized as anti-Muslim and neo-Nationalist view.

The stupidities of Punjabis, because they stood out for their religion and for onec took a firm stand for the safety of their fellow Muslim Punjabis, for sure its stupidity for you, because you hold (or show) your religion at such low value. An contraire, its has never been the case for Muslim Punjabis.

Pan Islamic visionaries like Allama Iqbal, had seen the destruction that was coming towards the Muslims of India to which we are witness after every few years. He, not only handpicked the best lawyer to fight the case for Pakistan, he gave a bold vision for the Muslim all over the world (what our leaders, KohTay Sikay, did to that vision is a different issue), and its very hard for hindus and non muslims to grasp the Pan-Islamic concept.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
Yet they were stupidly aloof about their own Punjabi homeland. ….

During the 1940s, when the need for Punjabi Muslaman was to ensure harmony, they followed Mullahtic idiotics and created the fiasco of Shahid Ganj.

[/QUOTE]

Yet again you spew garbage, the Muallah that the Punjabis followed in the 40’s was Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and he lead them to have a home land to which Punjabis are proud.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
In 1940s East Punjab villages were calm in general while Punjabi Musalman following Mullahtics created anarchy in Tala-gung and Pindi regions by attacking Punjabi-Sikhs and Punjabi-Hindus.

We can not understand the bloody trains of 1947 without analyzing the Punjabi Muslaman and Punjabi Mullah from 1920 to 1946.

[/QUOTE]

I don’t know which part of Punjab you were in, may be in Delhi? But our perspective on the history is that the Sikh and Hindu Punjabis were equally part in each and every massacre that happened in Punjab during the partition. See leaders like Allama Iqbal and Jinnah knew that its better to be massacred once rather than after every few years. So don’t try tell us why there were the bloody trains in the first place. Your lame rant about mullah would not hold any water when its comes to 1947, the people migrated because of Islam and nor for any mullah. As I told you Mullahs like Abu Kalam stayed in Baharat.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by antiobl: **
It is now time for Punjabi Muslaman to ask for forgiveness from Punjabi-Sikhs and Punjabi-Hindus, followed by concrete steps to show their sincerity.
**
[/QUOTE]

Anti, you should have put this line in the very top, and rather than just asking the Punjabi Muslims, it should have been just Muslims asking forgiveness from every Hindu in the subcontinent, may be that will make your hindu ego happy.

Minime Bhaijan, It was one big saazish by Jinnah and his cronies to create a little kingdom for themselves. Why did they make the Capital in Karachi??? I mean hello? The massacre that occurred during the partition cannot be justified, and it followed by the butchery of 3 Million Muslims in the name of what??? It’s still not too late to recognize that mistakes were made and it is still not too late to unite back with our brothers with whom we lived for centuries.

:jhanda:

And for your information, Brother ANTIobl always has the best analytical view of any members. He looks at the issues from various angles, and not just from one.

:jhanda:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
And for your information, Brother ANTIobl always has the best analytical view of any members. He looks at the issues from various angles, and not just from one.

[/QUOTE]

Sir ji, I have to disagree, secularism is just a convenient cover used by hindus for ages, Anti is not the first one to show his colors, especially on this board. May be because you agree to him on so many things and issue that’s you tend to forget. But for me hindu-secularism is just a deception, remember what Indra Gandi (the pinnacle of Hindu secularism) said after 1971

** "We have taken revenge of the thousand years of Muslim rule in India.” ** .

As long the hindu secularists hold this kind views there is no amount of sincerity shown by muslim can help our issues.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
butchery of 3 Million Muslims in the name of what???

[/QUOTE]

In the name of Hindu Dharam and Maha Bahrat, dont you think?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MiniMe: *
.....the Muallah that the Punjabis followed in the 40’s was Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and he lead them to have a home land to which Punjabis are proud. .....
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Jinnah and Mullah? What hath ya smokin'?
Even High school students in Pakistan know that Jinnah won't touch a Mullah with 10 foot pole. Ma-d00di and every other Mullah was anti-Jinnah and anti-Pakistan.

1945 elections got Muslim League only 86 seats in Punjab assembly. I don't know what history books are you reading Bud!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MiniMe: *
.....See leaders like Allama Iqbal and Jinnah knew that its better to be massacred once rather than after every few years. ....
[/QUOTE]

huh? You better read Jinnah's letters to Gov. Jenkins of Punjab before giving us a lecture.

While you are at it, also read Iqbal's letter to his British friend Professor White after the 1930 speech of Allahbad. Iqbal clearly said that he is against dividing up British India.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *It was one big saazish by Jinnah and his cronies to create a little kingdom for themselves. ....
[/QUOTE]

Madhanee, I appreciate your support. However try not to attribute leftie Mullahtic statements to Jinnah.

Check out a amazon.com for Ayesha Jalal's book "Jinnah the sole spokesman". Jinnah truly deserves the title of "Quaid-e-Azam". Let's not malign a great person like him.

Anti, only stones don’t change, luckily Iqbal and Jinanah both changed their view about united india and went for Pakistan. Thanks to Iqbal, your stupid Punjabi.

Even High school students in Pakistan know that Jinnah won’t touch a Mullah with 10 foot pole. Ma-d00di and every other Mullah was anti-Jinnah and anti-Pakistan.<<

That concurs that the only “mullah” the “stupid” punjabis were following for Pakistan was Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Alhamdulilah.

:jhanda:
:bhangra:

You cannot blame Jinnah for the communal violence, for that you have to thank the nehru-mountbatten pillow kissing sessions. Jinnah never wanted this mass exodus of refugees.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
Check out a amazon.com for Ayesha Jalal's book "Jinnah the sole spokesman". Jinnah truly deserves the title of "Quaid-e-Azam". Let's not malign a great person like him.
[/QUOTE]

you are a fan of this book?

many of those who rever Jinnah tend to loathe Jalal and this book.

her argument is that he never had a grand vision of "Pakistan" to save the Muslim community. rather, he was "trapped by his own rhetoric" and was forced to push for the creation of Pakistan though it was never his intention.

secular Pakistanis will probably love the book. but most others will not, as it totally contradicts their beliefs on Jinnah's intentions and perceived religious motivations.

it is a very well-researched book.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nikhil25: *

you are a fan of this book?
....
it is a very well-researched book.
[/QUOTE]

Yeap!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nikhil25: *

....many of those who rever [you mean “revere”] Jinnah tend to loathe Jalal and this book.
....
[/QUOTE]

Jalal is an object of hate both in Bharat and in Pak. The reason is simple. Those who want to live by the high school history books cannot fathom that Jinnah or Gandhi or Patel or Nehru were mere mortals.

Divison Of punjab

Division of punjab was an event which reflected the fact that was ignored for centuries. The fact that Muslims and Sikhs cannot live together due their differences. I know that going by the stats it is easy to blame the sikhs for killing muslims. I am not sure about that but i read it somewhere that during parition about Half Million muslims were killed in comparision with 200,000 sikhs. Sikhs owned about 64% of that land in undivided punjab even though they were only 8% of the total population of punjab. During 1947 an average Jatt was fed up with the game of politics being played by the elite muslims and hindus where they both ensured they got the best out of it. Many jatts knew that after partition their future and their children's future would be uncertain in an Hindu Dominated india. So someone had to pay the price of Sikh's fall and unfortunatley, muslims were the unlucky targets.

Re: Divison Of punjab

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Putt_sardara_da: *
Division of punjab was an event which reflected the fact that was ignored for centuries. The fact that Muslims and Sikhs cannot live together due their differences. I know that going by the stats it is easy to blame the sikhs for killing muslims. I am not sure about that but i read it somewhere that during parition about Half Million muslims were killed in comparision with 200,000 sikhs. Sikhs owned about 64% of that land in undivided punjab even though they were only 8% of the total population of punjab. During 1947 an average Jatt was fed up with the game of politics being played by the elite muslims and hindus where they both ensured they got the best out of it. Many jatts knew that after partition their future and their children's future would be uncertain in an Hindu Dominated india. So someone had to pay the price of Sikh's fall and unfortunatley, muslims were the unlucky targets.
[/QUOTE]

Well said. I think that the dialogue has to go beyond the history soaked in blood. Many Pakistani Punjabis are ashamed of who they are, others are too proud..So proud that they uphold Punjab over anything else in Pakistan. There has to be a clear balance between the two extremes.

Punjabis being divided by two countries poses many challenges..furthermore we are Muslims, Hindus & Sikhs..Jatts, Rajputs and Gujars..we even write differently! How does one reconcile this with our shared heritage? Through mutual respect and cross border examination. If I, as a Muslim start hating the Sikhs, the Sikhs hating the Hindus..We will never be able to completely move forward in history.

Pakistani Punjabis look at Delhi as the crown jewel of Punjab -- an area not acessible to them. The Indians look towards Lahore in the same manner. Our shrines, our heroes and our villians did not choose what side of the border to make history, why must we?

Re: Re: Divison Of punjab

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

Pakistani Punjabis look at Delhi as the crown jewel of Punjab -- an area not acessible to them.

[/QUOTE]

Why? Delhi didnt have a significant punjabi population until migrants from west punjab and NWFP settled there post partition. Crown jewel of Punjab? not a chance.

Re: Re: Re: Divison Of punjab

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by queer: *

Why? Delhi didnt have a significant punjabi population until migrants from west punjab and NWFP settled there post partition. Crown jewel of Punjab? not a chance.
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Queer, Delhi was partitioned off from Punjab during the Muslim invasions and set up as a administrative capital. If Delhi is not Punjabi then what is it?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Divison Of punjab

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *

Queer, Delhi was partitioned off from Punjab during the Muslim invasions and set up as a administrative capital. If Delhi is not Punjabi then what is it?
[/QUOTE]

delhi is more like an extension of UP culturally and linguistically - heartland of hindi and urdu, panchewers, bhaiyyaland.

i'm curious though, at what time frame was delhi a part of a punjabi ruled kingdom?

Hi Rajputfury,

I agree with with you. The only way Sikhs and Muslims can learn to respect each other is by learning more about each other and to accept each other's differences.

Ps- Please throw some light on Muslim Jatts and Rajputs since i dont know anything about them.